Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

Is there any source or document anywhere that provides detailed examples or explanations of exactly how the combat sequences are calculated?

Thanks.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

None whatsoever - since that is part of the SSI "trade secrets" that we are not permitted to divulge due to the NDA we signed when we got the code.

The only "documeent" would be releasing the code, since its not a simple formula or step tables like the old Avalon Hill games of yore. You would have to manually trace through the routines and subroutines. But that is nt going to happen.

So if you need to see what AP values a particular gun gives then see WW2 APCalc in your game root folder - that samples 1000 shots per range cell and averages the results, with the best achieved of each 1000 shown.

cheers
Andy

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

Andy, thanks for your time. I have looked at the calculator that came with the CD version of the game that I just bought.

I'm not interested in causing anyone from Shrapnel to violate any NDA, and, I don't believe that my questions will do so. Of course, you are the final judge of that.

Could you elaborate on this statement please? I don't understand what you mean by the word "cell"?

" that samples 1000 shots per range cell and averages the results, with the best achieved of each 1000 shown. "

And also elaborate, perhaps with an example. Take the early WW2 British 2 pounder AT gun. That would provide a clear example.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

The Calculator chart has a category called "best HE" next to the "HE" column. Can you tell us about that?

I know from some text docs in the game that a shot will Penetrate the Armor if the shot's value is equal or more than the Armor value. So, that tidbit is provided to us already. Anything you can add to this would be valuable.

I note on the screen during Pen/Arm calculations that the phrase "weak point" appears occasionally. I presume that this is some kind of random event that indicates a Critical Hit and the Pen value gets a + 3 or so. Anything you can add to this would be valuable.

Are there any other kinds of random events that cause enhanced or degraded Pen values that you could tell us about? Thanks.

Finally, I have Webroot AV and every time I navigate over to the Shrapnel forums page, I get a big red warning that this website address has malware. I don't know why this happens. I haven't noticed anything unusual about this website, other than the fact that it's unusually good.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

Aw, Nuts, Andy. I can't figure out how to use the AP Calculator and the Armor Calculator to calculate anything. Are there any instructions somewhere?

Here's what I figured out so far: the British 2 pdr gun firing AP at 500 meters has a Pen value of 5.

For Armor Calculator: Armor of 100mm at an angle/slope of 45 degrees resists hits the same as 141mm at zero degrees slope/angle.

Is there more to it than this? I suspect I've missed something. Thanks for the help.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

Andy, the "edit" function isn't working for me today, so, I've had to use new messages instead of edits.

After we use the Arm Calc to figure out that our Armor value is 141mm at O deg slope, is there a way for us to figure out the game's Armor value number? Is it "8" for example? (that's just a guess)

Thanks a million.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

No, it's 14. I re read the text file and a value of 141mm at zero deg equals a game Arm value of 14. If the value was 145mm we round up to a game Arm value of 15.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

The instructions are in txt files which I re read again to try to figure it out. The Armor Calculator is interactive and actually calculates. I can't figure out whether the Armor Piercing Calculator is a chart only or actually calculates numbers.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

Best HE is explained in the txt file. The other questions stand.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

Read the AP Calc & Armor Calc help files in your game folder.
Weak point critical hits are included in that.
Armor Calc is only needed if you are making a new unit & have its information.

AP Calc lists the average & best possible penetration for that weapon ammo.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

The AP Calculator does not calculate weak point special hits, nor does it allow for track or no effect hits. All 1000 samples are deemed to be normally effective hits. It thus only uses the basic armour penetration subroutines.

The "best" shot is the highest score achieved in a sample of 1000. It says nothing as to whether more than 1 sample achieved that value, so is best looked at as the "1 in 1000" statistic or "golden BB".

HEAT and HE only have only got 1 penetration cell because they are range independent for armour penetration - a hit at 100m is the same as one at 2000.

NB: HE effect is for direct aimed fire - Indirect Fire will achieve much less, as it will produce more "Hit by splinters" randomised events, which only add suppression up to a maximum of pinned(+buttoned up) status to the hit AFV. But the calculator as stated above, is based on only good hits, ignoring the random special events events.

HEAT though, does use the random fusing values, for fuse failures (pen<"book") hits and over-penetrations (pen>"book"), since that is part of the hit penetration base code for that type.

ArmourCalc simply is an angle calculator to work out the value of sloped armour. The game uses 1 = 1cm, normalised for angle of slope. So it is as Imp said, mainly of use for determining what a new vehicle's armour should be in game terms for an OOB designer.

In the main though you will generally after a while of playing get a feel for what your guns do, just like real life end users did after actual combat experience. No real life troops had a "penetration calculator" - though the boffins may have issued them a set of rule of thumb engagement ranges based on trials on captured enemy tanks.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

The txt file that comes with the Armor Penetration Calculator states that the numeric values signifying the "Pen" factor will sometimes indeed fluctuate between one number and another, when the two different values are very close to one another at a given range. I just recently read this in the txt file and it impressed me greatly.

Is this was makes the AP Calc a "calculator"? I'm trying to understand why calling it a "chart" like a board wargame chart is less accurate than calling it a "calculator".

Thanks for the further info about the Armor Calculator. You explained its true function when I did not know.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

It is a calculator since it makes several thousand runs through the AP code for each and every time you select a new weapon. That is calculation in my book.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

Oh, yes. I've read both of those txt files more than once each. Much important info there.

Re: Detailed examples of Pen/Arm combat calculations
 

Yes, that's indeed a calculator. I thought it was a chart. Now I realize that the device makes several thousand runs through the AP code for each and every time I select a new weapon, I understand why it is a calculator.

Very impressive. Back when SPI was first released, I bought and enjoyed the game for a few years. I've just come back to it a month ago. I never had any idea of just how deep this game design really is.

The Camo Workshop team have done wonderful things, Andy. Thanks very much.