US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

I would like to list here a few tiny details that I have by chance spotted lately on the US OOB.

1.) Weapon 35 (75mm M1917 FG) has warhead size 5 and HE kill 7. Other 75 mm guns in this OOB have warhead size 4 and HE kill 5.

2.) Weapon 064 (90mm M3 L52) has HE penetration 4. I would expect weapon of this caliber to have HE penetration rating of 2.

3.) Unit 206 (M4A3 (Late) has carry capacity of 12, while other normal M4 Shermans have carry capacity 13.

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

on the list................

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

I've noticed a funny thing about M3 medium tanks.

In category Medium tank we have 06 M3A1 from 6/41, 242 M3A3 from 5/42, 243 M3A5 from 7/43 - while there is no basic model M3, which was most numerous (some 900+, after sending some 4000 M3 to lend-lease), and apparently the only one actually used in combat by the US troops (in the Torch, Tunisia and Makin atoll in 11/43 - books refer to them only as "M3").

There is no clear info in Hunnicutt's book, but apparently M3 started to be given to the Army from 8/41 onwards. M3A1 entered production in 2/42 only, and only 300 were produced. Diesel M3A3 entered production in 1/42 (322 produced), and basically the same M3A5 in a course of 1942 (591 produced, part lend-leased).

Later production tanks (from around mid-1942?) had longer 75mm M3 gun, so it can be doubled with this gun.

So, I suggest to leave M3A1 with corrected dates (interesting variant with cast hull - a photo is correct), and change the remaining two to M3 (M2 and M3 gun), both available until 4/44, when M3 were declared obsolete. Or they could end in 11/43 (Makin Atoll). Photos are probably OK - there was no difference in front view. Actually, they are probably M3.

Same for category CS tank with 244 M3A1, 256 M3A5, 258 M3A1

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

134 1&1/2 Ton Truck - if this is supposed to be AT/wheel infantry carrier, then I guess it's batter to change the photo to otherwise ubiquitous 1&1/2 Ton Dodge WC-62 (eg. 00405)

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

145, 153, 214 - 75mm Pack How - I believe, that icon 2111 is better - it had no shield, and relatively shorter barrel and longer tail (a drawing here http://www.ww2gyrene.org/weapons_pack_howitzer_75mm.htm ).

Until around 1940/41 they were used with wooden wheels - maybe it's worth to split unit 153 to two units, the earlier one with ready 8624 picture.
Unfortunately, publications don't tell when exactly M8 gunbed with rubber wheels was adopted - "large-scale manufacture of the M1A1 pack howitzer did not resume until September 1940", possibly on M8 gunbed (Osprey New Vanguard 131 - US Field Artillery of WWII)

As for unit 44 75mm Howitzer, it might be just pack howitzer (same comments as above) or very rare 75mm Field Howitzer manufactured for cavalry, with the same M1A1 gun, but twin-tail M3 series bed. However, "no significant production" took place until the war, and serial production started in 1/41, and only 349 were made, "nearly a third provided to China", as the cavalry lost interest in towed guns.

Same for USMC OOB: 30 75mm Howitzer, 123,124,125,145,146 - 75mm Pack Hwtzr.
Between 123 and 124, in 1938-41 there could be another unit added, with wooden wheels and weapon #33 M1A1. Unit 123 also should have weapon #33, not #150 M8.

BTW: I don't know why (newer) weapon 150 M8 FH in USMC OOB has lower range 164, than 33 M1A1 FH - both were in fact the same gun with M1A1 barrel and 45 deg elevation, and 8.9km range according to Osprey (178 of weapon 33 is correct)... in fact M1A1 could be used for all.
Similar situation is with US OOB - weapon 150 is M1, with shorter range. Differences between M1 and M1A1 guns were rather minor - unfortunately, there is no info, when the model was changed (before the war).

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

11, 314 M4 3-4-3 Flame - for most of its service it was known as M4 E4-5 Flame - only from 4/45 a derivate of an auxiliary flamethrower E4-5 was standardized as M3-4-4 (Zaloga: "..many unit records refer to the various types of auxiliary flamethrowers under the generic E4-5 designation...")

Both units differ in number of FT shots 1 or 3, but this is hopelessly low, while USMC #205 M4 E4-5 Flame has 10 shots.
In fact it had 50 gallons and a burst time 50 sec (a comparison is here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=50474 ). Early ones might have been an early variant with 25 gals and 40 sec.

A Crocodile (#315) had 400 gals and 80 sec.

Also, same machines as USMC OOB #100 M3A1 Flame, with improvised infantry flamethrowers, were used in action by the US Army on Pacific theatre from 1/44.

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

028 M8 Greyhound could never carry that much ammo (32 HE, 80 AP). According to Osprey NV 053 M8 Greyhound, a factory stowage was 80 rounds. In fact, cavalry cars had two radios in a hull, what caused a reduction of ammo to sole 16 rounds in a turret. Such cars were manufactured from 3/44 (or maybe even modified from 11/43, when two radios were authorized?). After applying different field modifications (eg. 16+36 rounds), a field modification with 79 rounds was accepted in July 44 (43+20+16). Cars from tank destroyer units had original 80 rounds.
BTW, the gun was M6.

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

A better picture is 30243, since it was bow-mounted flamethrower, while current one shows a FT mounted in a turret (POA-CWS-H1)

M4 POA-CWS-H1 with turret-mounted FT could be also added to the Army (copied from USMC unit 203, with changed name to M4) - they were used by the Army on Pacific theatre (54 tanks available from 1/45, used from 4/45 on Okinawa).

#312 M42B3 - personally I couldn't find such designation... apparently it's M4 POA-CWS-H5 with HVSS suspension?

BTW: #720 LVT(A) 4 - maybe it's worth to replace picture 09386 with beautiful 2470, with prominent Army star (avoided by the Marines)

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

I went through my files and found a document I photographed in US National Archives II in College Park, MD titled SPECIAL FULL TRACK ARMORED VEHICLES.

The M42 was an official designation used for standardized main armament flamethrower tanks; and there were two variants produced:

M42B1: Rebuilt tanks using M4A1 tanks as a basis.
M42B3: Rebuilt tanks using M4A3 tanks as a basis.

Both variants used the M5-4 / (E12-7R1) flamethrower with 315 gallons of fuel; replacing the main armament.

Several HUNDRED of these were remanufacturered by August 1945; with HUNDREDS more cancelled by the end of WW2 in August 1945.

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

Photographs of interest. It doesn't say which version is shown; but true Sherman aficionados can figure out which is which by looking at the hull.

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

I think this is what you are talking about. These are from NARA II and the dates on the back of the cards were mid-1943.

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

Nice photo of M3. Tested in October 1943, first saw combat in 1/44 with the Army (Bougainville) and 2/44 by the Marines (New Britain)

I've found an info on M42 in photo's caption of Zaloga's book only:
(a bit of explanation: POA-CWS H1 main armament flamethrowers were not produced in series, but were apparently treated as an authorized field modification).

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

Errata in US OB: (SPOB12)

Unit 008, M4A3

Winter icon (3496) does not seem to be a M4A3. Shape of the engine deck does not match summer (1086) and desert (1065) icons for M4A3.

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

Yep.......that's been corrected

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

Apparently it was longer M4A4. Good eye :)

While checking new icons, I've accidentally found, that 37mm AT guns start 2 or 3 years too early:

Units 39, 96, 97 37mm AT-Gun (available from 1/38) - according to Osprey New Vanguard 107 'US anti-tank artillery 1941-45', "The US Army did not field a dedicated anti-tank gun until 1940." 37mm M3 gun was approved only in 12/38, but "Production of the 37mm anti-tank gun began slowly in the winter of 1940". 340 only were made in 1940 and "As the 37mm anti-tank gun became available in quantity in 1941 it began to replace the .50-cal. heavy machine gun in US Army infantry divisions.". Same info in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/37_mm_Gun_M3

There is no info, when M51 APC was commissioned, but now a better round starts with M5 weapon from 1/40 (when the guns weren't even ready), so there might be no justification for two weapons, and it should be just M3 gun with better AP ammo (designation M5 is of course wrong for towed gun).

Same for 147, 150, 210 37mm AT-Gun [light AT gun]. They should receive new icon 8038 as well.

Same for USMC regarding dates and weapons (and icons of units 275, 276). (And as for icon, same for Chinese unit 62)

Unit 116 75mm M1916 Bty - photo is apparently 75mm M1897, it should be 9399 (of unit 423)

Unit 240 Light Tank M3A1 - still in use at Kasserine Pass (2/43) - I guess until the end of Tunesian campaign (now ends at 12/42).


348 Armoured Jeep - maybe a hull rear should not be armoured (ordinary tin body at the rear) - possibly also hull sides (unarmoured engine compartment)?

366 T25E1 Scout Car - this vehicle seems not used and redundant - T25 armoured jeep program was cancelled, after trying numerous models. Field armour kits were later used instead. It's the only unit of its class, used in formation 396 "Armoured jeep". In fact, there is already unit 348 Armoured Jeep (scout vehicle class).

Some units, like the 60th Inf. Rgt in Ardennes, used armoured jeeps with two bazookas mounted (http://articles.warlordgames.com/hob...ep-conversion/)


Unit 410 75mm M1897 Bty - photo is French strange modified variant of 75mm - better is 8526 (used currently for US M1916). Or there could be found a photo with US M2 split trail carriage.

Same for unit 422. It still uses old 56 icon, maybe it should be given some newer one, eg. 2164?


423 75mm M1916 FG - I suggest a shorter barrel icon 2163 is more appropriate (only L/28)

424 75mm M1917 FG - according to Chamberlain/Gander, used in Philippine campaign (by 5/42, now 12/41)

465,466 37mm M17 AT-Gun - the gun was named M1916, as well as its weapon (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/m1916-37mm-gun/). Proper icon is 8033 (current is modern M3 gun).

Same for USMC units 222,223,274

It's worth to add Dodge 3/4t, eg. Polish LWP #179, photo eg. 19037. Best icon might be 161.

That's all from my side :)

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

Maybe I'll finish with USMC here, because it's largely the same:

30 75mm Howitzer - M1A1 pack howitzer usually uses icon 2111 (like units 123-125) (drawing: https://www.tauniverse.com/forum/att...1&d=1189101831)

145,146 75mm Abn PH - the same as above (wrong twin trail icon besides)

380 75mm M1897 FG - I don't know if the Marines used more modern split trail M2 carriages, but in that case a better icon would be 2164

381 75mm M1916 FG - I suggest a shorter barrel icon 2163

386 75mm M1916 Bty - photo is M1897, correct is 9399

That's all.

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

you're like that house party guest who never knows when to go home.......

I have MORE than enough work to do on these games this year and you are draining my enthusiasm away ESPECIALLY this endless nitpicking over trivial Gun Icon changes.....

so yes....."That's all" I want to hear from you

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

If there has been introduced new set of realistic icons 8000+, why not use them in all appropriate cases?... And you have a sucker, who wants to check them and pick best ones. I don't know about the others, but when I play, I like to look at more realistic gun in my lines, rather than at SP-1 vintage symbol. I'm not complaining "that gun didn't look like that, you should draw an icon", but I give you a number ready on a plate. By the way, there are lacking good icons of simple guns with a single narrow trail, like 75mm Mle.1897 and a majority of WW1-vintage single-trail guns - but I'm just trying to find something, that fits best.

Re: US OOB 12 very minor comments
 

8017.......NOW--------Take the hint Michal