Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

As many of you know, many of the large PC game developers are moving away from PC game development toward the Consule market. That spells doom for many would be excellent PC games.

This also spelles doom for many smaller developers as they try to find publishers that can sell their product and help support development costs and such.

For example, if any of you follow Stars Super Nova, then you know about the difficulties that the developers over at Mare Crisium have encountered.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Lead Designer Jeff McBride of Mare Crisium posted an update on the Stars! Supernova Genesis project status to our discussion forum:

Well, we've spent a full year now talking to possible publishers. Most of the big names are moving entirely away from PC games and most of the small fry do not have the resources to fund the remainder of development costs.

There is at least one big name publisher who would like to talk to us again once the game is essentially complete and there are a bunch of smaller companies that would be happy to manufacture and distribute the game once it is complete. For that matter, self-publishing would be a possibility once we were finished.

Meanwhile, we have been dividing our time between doing outside contract work and following up possible publisher/backer leads. The upshot of this is that very little actual game development has happened over the Last few months.

If any of you happen to have a lead on a possible investor please drop us a line.

Stars! Supernova will ship some day. We just don't know when at this point in time.

Jeff McBride<hr></blockquote>

I wonder if Shrapnel has what Jeff is looking for? You never can tell, with the success of Shrapnels other games, Stars SN could make a nice addition to the game list. Just a thought.

The point is, with more and more publishers and developers going for the Consule big bucks, those of use who prefer PC games are going to get the shaft.

I know that if MM geared SEIV up for Consule play, they would make a **** pod of money, and I would hope that happens for Aaron.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Well, I cannot speak for Shrapnel, but based on their standard operating procedure I would say they fit mroe into the "bunch of smaller companies that would be happy to manufacture and distribute the game once it is complete." That is how they operate typically.

Geoschmo

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

It's sad that they are moving to consoles, but in their search for $$$ they have to go where the market is

I dont see all game developers ending up that way though, since its rather difficult to play strategy games that have any significant level of detail (non real-time strategy games) on a rather awkward to use 10 button controller (or however many buttons there are)

And it isnt all bad that games are being ported over to the larger market, more games are produced in that market. And games on XBox especially are easily ported to PC due to them being on windows environment anyway...

Whether the games are are desireable to the PC gaming market however is a different story. Personally i wouldnt touch games like Tony Hawks pro skater or the like, but games such as Halo on XBox are interesting and quite playable IMHO


Just my $0.02
Gimboid

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

But this isn't the full story, in fact there is a larger lie in the gaming business.

The reason folks are moving to consoles is because of the amount of sales they generate. They have to do this because most publishers now spend far too much money on marketing, artists, and etc when developing their games. Recently Ghost Recon, for instance, cost something like 9 million dollars to make. This is something that Ubisoft doesn't plan on recouping for 3 years (ie the whole cycle though the bargain bins and multi-packs). A smaller developer could never hope to make any money, even though their sales volume would have made a publisher a mint a few short years ago, in the current climate. And if they did sign with a big publisher they will NEVER see royalties as they will never sell enough copies to make the break even point. I get very frustrated by small developers who sign on with large publisher because for the most part they are setting themselves up for eventual doom unless they dumb down their games for a mass audience. But the lure of retail is strong (the dark side is powerful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

And besides the large publishers bleeding money like a stuck pig the retail outlets are worse. Retail is the reason why niche products will never be proitable again, much like niche board wargames are not on the shelves anymore. Only the top 10-20 games in a year will ever make money in retail, the rest will operate at a loss. A large publisher can eat that, and in turn will make sure the developers never see a dime in royalties.

Ack don't get me started. We lose developers all the time to retail publishers, but unfourtanetly they don't know HOW much more money they can make Online and that in the long run they are going to kill themselves trying to compete with EA and Sierra for the mass market.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

There was an interview with a veteran game designer in either PC Gamer of PC Gameplay a month or so back. I forget his name, sorry. They asked him about the death of the PC game at the hands of consoles, especially in light of Halo moving over to the Xbox. He laughed and said it is a cyclical trend. As a new generation of consoles come out, designers drift over to them and more games come out in that area. Then, as that technology ages, more and more designers move back over to the PC, which is where the cutting edge games (technologically) are being made. The PC specs move forward continuously, while the consoles move in steps. Further, many designers want to work on the next Great Game, not “Generic RTS” which will never be famous.

He also pointed out that the control system on consoles limits them to what type of game they can have, “dumbing them down” as Richard notes. Peter Molyneux, who is noted for cutting edge games, talked in a different interview about PC’s vs consoles . He points out that the mouse is a much better tool than your average game pad. He also noted that the installed base of PC’s is very high and that with the rise of the internet, a lot more people see the PC as an entertainment device than in the past. His feeling is that PC games have a bright future, as more and more people are using PC’s. Buying a game to try out on the PC you are using for the internet costs $50, while buying a console and then a $50 game costs a lot more. The market is growing, which makes more room for niche developers and quality products appreciated by only a small audience.

I guess I am trying to say that PC games are actually in great shape. I remember when only one store in my town had PC games and there were only three or four on the shelf. Now that same town has dozens of places to buy games and mail order internet is amazing. Hell, Nairobi has a second hand PC games shop and I have had to discipline staff for playing games during working hours. PC games are everywhere and are being bought left and right. I won’t say it is easy for a developer to make money or that all the games coming out are great, but for the consumer, the roses are blooming. Further, for the specialist developer, the market is just big enough that if you do things right, you can do ok.

Way back when I joined this board, I remember someone asking Richard if Shrapnel was going to go broke due to some event, something about sales of SEIV. I think he replied that he couldn’t release numbers, but that sales were doing quite well and were competitive against a certain Category of the big developers. Perhaps Richard could refresh my memory, but I remember sitting back and saying “Wow, these little guys are doing pretty well with this internet business model”.

The market might be as cutthroat as hell, but the number, quality and choice of games has been rising for the fifteen years I have been playing. Sure, the Playstation has more games than my PC, but Atari also had more than my Vic20. We might be coming up to a consolidation of some companies and we have already seen the bankruptcy of others (Looking Glass comes to mind as a quality company going bust), but if you look at the number of games in development and expected to release this year, it is hard to be pessimistic, at least as a consumer.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Saxon:
I have had to discipline staff for playing games during working hours. <hr></blockquote>

Ooh, you sound like just the sort of imperialist ratbag I wouldn't like to work for

On a serious note, I consider that the vast proportion of your post is right on the mark

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

No the market is cyclical, however there is a major shift going on that won't change unless folks change the overall business model.

With computer and video gaming becoming a larger business it has attracted more folks who are interested in it as just that, as a business and not as a hobby or community. These few companies and retailers are making it a very hostile environment for small or medium developers or publishers to ever make money in retail.

Consoles do well because they are relatively cheap and deliver fast paced games folks can get into and folks also don't have to worry about configuring their console or installing a game.
Since they have such a large audience folks can make a killing by making console games, and that is where the money is so companies like lemmings are jumping that way.

This might change eventually but for now small and medium developers need to relize that the Online venture is the only real way to go as long as you have a strong game title. Without the deep pockets of major publishers they will never survive in retail long enough to ever see a dime of royalties. Less than 1% of the games sold in retail today ever make their development teams a dime in royalties.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Richard, this is interesting but given the lack of synergy you are highlighting for the big companies, I would query how sustainable their existing business model is. Thinking about this rationally, even the most demented development team is not going to go with a market maker that gives them nil to low returns, isn't this where the smaller and mid-sized companies can make good returns by (a) profit sharing with the development teams and (b) selective but intrusive marketing techniques (similar to how the mobile phone companies started back in the 80's) in order to ensure profile

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Possibly but I have seen very little cooperation between development teams in the past like this. We tried launching an Academy of Strategy and Wargame sciences to pool together money for such a venture but no one was seriously interested.

I have actually talked to developers and shown them the hard facts about retail and still told "well that's nice". I think the main reason for that is there is still this rock star persona to retail. To be honest we had planned on getting into retail shortly after we opened shop but after rejecting 15 seperate offers because they would have screwed our developers over we seriously don't try anymore, except maybe foreign retail.

The large companies, like I said, can take the hit over the long haul and can fund games to the 2 to 3 years it typically takes to gain profitability. And if a developer gets lucky (like say the guys who did Kohan) enough to get funding that way they are set for awhile, but their are still at the win of a publisher deciding that it no longer wants to do their specific genre because it isn't profitable enough.

There may be another alternative besides Online sales to the small and mid guys but right now I don't see it. I think it will take some real disaster stories (ie some well known but small company going under due to retail pressures) to get these guys to relize that the time to act is now in getting a viable alternative to retail going. For niche titles to survive this needs to happen, they just can no longer compete at retail (at least not in the US).

Luckily I think we have proven (and some other indie companies) that if you keep your costs down and deliver a good quality game a year that you can easily guarantee your existance in the long term.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Forgive me if this has already been said but isn't a large issue money. I'm not talking about how much it costs to produce or market a game or even how much the game costs for that matter. Lets talk about the system. Most of these games are being sold to kids, ages ? to 16, working part time jobs. It's a hell of a lot easier to fork out $300 for a console that $1500 - $3000 for a computer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Heh. That's what mommys and daddys are for.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Actually I already made that point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

And that is why console games tend to swerve more to the arcade, that and the fact that the current controls for console don't work well with hard core games. I once tried Railroad Tycoon II for the Playstation and it was painful, well not as bas PzG for the Playstation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif .

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

The demographics of the market are different than many people think. First of all, computer games are not just for kids any more. People my age (31) grew up with games and still love them. We also now have the cash to buy them, which was more than I can say for when I was young. Second, we have moved well beyond Pac-Man and it has become respectable to play. The Sims, Flight Simulator, the Tycoon games and Everquest have seriously changed the way society looks at games. PC Gamer ran an article on older gamers and it was filled with people over 50 who spend a lot of time on computers. A repeated comment was that Quake was a bit too fast for them, but these other, more thoughtful games were right up their alley. This market is only going to grow.

Also, the place of games in our lives has changed. This web link http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/ent...00/1752522.stm
Goes to an article stating that people in the UK now spend more money on games than on renting movies. Admittedly, they also say that consoles are where the action is, but it points to a real change in the role computers and computer games, in one form or another, play in our lives.

Grommet has a point, buying console is cheaper than getting a computer just for games. However, the number of households which already have a computer for other reasons is quite high. Adding a game to the existing computer is relatively cheap. Until consoles have full web surfing capabilities, folks who want to use the Internet and send email at home have to get a computer. For them, getting a console instead just adding games to their Internet machine doesn’t make sense. I could be wrong, but I think this is a big market. How to get the money in that market to the people who create the games is the key to ensuring good games keep coming.

Richard, where do the development teams get the cash to pay their staff? If only 1% of games in retail return money to the developer, how did the games ever get put together in the first place? I don’t know the business, but it seems to me that no matter how much you love a game, you are not going to be working long on it if you have no pay cheque. You mention development costs in the millions, and lots of the games look it, yet you say the developers don’t see any money. I have a feeling I am missing something.

Tigga, I think you have made up my mind on how I will play my Empire. You had best hope you don’t fall to us, your furry people will be cleaning our sewers with their toothbrushes while my Discipline Lords read motivational speeches over a megaphone. And get back to work, damn it!

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Some developers get funding from a publisher, which sounds nice. When Tim did 101 Empire funded the actual development and then promised royalties afterwords. The problem is that unless your game is a huge seller you will never see royalties. So now you are are begging for the publisher or another publisher to fund you, the problem is in most cases the original publisher owns your game rights. So in many cases if you want to continue to make money the publisher gets to dictate your game to you, in which case they are looking to make money so they dumb down your game to make it more appealing to the mass market. Thus you start making games you don't like to make or you are out of business.

Don't get me wrong there are success stories, but for everyone that is a success I can show you many others where companies just don't exist anymore. This is very true in the hardcore gaming areas. Wargames and sims suffered first. How many hardcore wargames or sims do you see coming out of major publishing houses today? Not many. Remember SSI, Microprose, Interactive Magic, Janes, Origin, etc. All of these are gone or are now a joke Version of themselves.

Eventually it is going to hit other areas, in fact it has started to hit the rpg market with a few notable exceptions. I also fear that MOOIII is not going to make the money it needs to impress the publisher and thus we won't see new 4X games coming out of publishers for awhile. Now maybe Quicksilver has kept costs low, if so that might save them.

But my basic point is that without having to sell your soul to a publisher who can then dictate when your game comes out no matter how buggy it is, and will probably want to dumb it down to appeal to a lot of folks, there are very few options for the niche markets anymore. And let's face it Space based 4X games are a niche today. When a game could sell 100,000 copies and be a big success that might have not been true, but today it is the sad truth.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Richard,

Ok, now I am starting to get it. Basically the publishers are using developers as disposable grunt labour. Pay them by the hour and then keep the profits from the work and ideas, particularly when there is a big success. It sounds a bit like the recording industry, where the artists do the hard part and the companies only do PR and distribution of the product, but somehow manage to hold on to most of the cash. We also get lots of bad music targeted at focus Groups and demographics rather than people.

I now have a much better idea where you are coming from and see your points. Still, niche market or not, you have been involved in some great products and I hope that you can make it keep happening.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Richard:
... Wargames and sims suffered first. How many hardcore wargames or sims do you see coming out of major publishing houses today?... ...Remember SSI, Microprose, Interactive Magic, Janes, Origin, etc...

And let's face it Space based 4X games are a niche today.<hr></blockquote>

Oh boy... Those were the days.
The scariest fact is SSI. they released Reach for the stars about 2 years ago and look at them now.

Yeesh.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Actually even the RTFS remake was done by SSG, not SSI, and it was released from the remnants of SSI (most of the SSI folks had long been laid off) that was owned by Mattel Interactive at the time.

And RTFS is a PERFECT example of what I am talking about. It was a game where they tried to please everyone and pleased no one. They tried to remake a game that was a darling of the hard core 4X crowd, but dumbed it down a great deal. And they tried to make a game that the general public would like, but many of that audience didn't care for it.

Don't get me wrong the game has good qualities but there were a lot of folks that were disappointed by the overall quality of the remake. It surprised me too because I am a big SSG fan. In my mind you should always try to please you core audience with a game like this, and hopefully if you do a good enough job you will win converts from the casual gamers out there.

As far as SSI goes I was a huge SSI freak, my wife said I should buy stock in them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . If it had SSI on the box I used to buy it without thinking as I knew I was going to get a game I would love. Those were the days http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif .

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Personally, I don't like consoles much these days. Most of the games just suck. I play Final Fantasy and Test Drive Series on the sony, but beyond that most consoles controls seem sluggish and awkard to me plus game play is short most of the time.

Now....
Last night I spent a good 7 hours playing Space Empires I, 2 and so on. Why? It was fun.

As for Space Empires IV, I sincerly hope that it doesn't use RTG graphics like most games do. I hate the blocky and stretched texture look more RTG games have on this ships and graphics. MM shouldn't go down that industry standard...

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

RTG?

Phoenix-D

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

RTG = Real Time Graphics, a computer graphics (animation?) standard.

I don't understand Hadrian's comment, though, since SE IV's graphics are based on .bmp formats. Did you mean some hypothetical future sequel?

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

If I recall it right, MM would be using the next few games to develop and test systems to be used in SpaceEmpires V.

[ June 14, 2003, 18:28: Message edited by: General Talashar ]

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Just a note that whatever happens and whatever good will the consoles be, do not forget that PC has advantages when talking about serious fps or strategy games. Strategy games is what realy keeps the PC on. Ok, so imagine the SEIV goes for consoles. Now what? How exactly would you add your own "Traushignty Imperium" racestyle to the game? Or how would you mod it to your heart's content? or even just make the AI a little smarter?

The PC has the power of customization. Nothing would ever beat it. plus, i think that the PC proccessing unit allows for more artifical intilligence capabilites for the games than consoles could ever reach. Ok, so you played a game, finished it, whats now? The AI in those consoles is dumb thing that does as it was programmed, nothing else.

To finish the post i'll give another example, Quake series. It would never have such a large community simply because you couldnt record demos, create models/skins. And no bots. Nothing.

Console is like a headache. It comes, it passes, and you forget it.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Taera Hive Imperium:

The PC has the power of customization.
Console is like a headache. It comes, it passes, and you forget it.<hr></blockquote>

... That would change in about 10 years estimate. Since more and more Consoles are looking for more power, they are turning to people who manufacture PC hardware for their stuff instead of going it alone or getting second rate wares. With this, more and more similarities are sufacing from consoles that relates to PCs. Pretty soon, we are going to have Consoles that can acess the net at broadband speeds and PCs that already have emulators installed in the system.

Side Note: Xbox doesnt count since its just "Windows in a box"

and sadly, it comes, it passes, then another one makes to the stores causing a double headache with all the hype that will be completley defunct in 2 years, tops.

Ah, the sad life of consoles.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Another sign of the way the PC game industry is going is what happened to Sir-Tech, the makers of the Wizardry series of RPGs. I had played the early Wizardry games on my old Apple II+, then lost track of the series. When I heard that Wizardry 8(!) was coming out, I knew I had to get a copy. Well, they couldn't find a publisher (having sold off their own publishing arm years ago), that would take a risk on the non-mainstream game (at least at a price that would allow Sir-Tech to stay afloat).

Finally, they worked out a self-publishing arrangement with EB and got the game out, but they are finished as a company. It is another sad story of one of the industry's early innovators going under because they stayed true to the game format that they wanted to produce.

As an aside, if you like the classic RPGs (such as the Wizardry and Might & Magic series), pick up Wizardry 8. It is true to the stat heavy, non-linear, hack/slash/incinerate RPG style, with a decent story line and very good (not great, but very good) graphics. If you like this style of game (as I do), the game play is great and you will be lost in it for many, many hours.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
Next month I'm posting an interview with MM (I just now got around to it...) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

MM said the next game might be using RTG style graphics.

EDIT-

If I recall it right, MM would be using the next few games to develop and test systems to be used in SpaceEmpires V.
I haven't looked at the interview for a while, so let me get back to you on that next month when I prep the the interview for posting.

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: Hadrian Aventine ]<hr></blockquote>


You are going to post it here? or a link to it? I will be interested in seeing what is comming with SEV this is one of the best games I have (I have A Lot too)The support that MM and Arron (and Forum) make this one game that I recamend to anyone playing

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

I myself got an X-box recently, and I think its really fun. As far as I understand it, X-box is not Windows in a box, the hardware is customized from the standard stuff. (It is close I bet, but its not like you can pry the MB from the X-box and use it in a PC)
the only games I have so far are Halo and a football game. I admit the lack of a keyboard mouse combo made adapting to Halo tough. But I got used to it and its really awesome.
Consoles are better suited for some types of games, you have to admit. A console is easier for multiplayer games (2 or more player games for the PC, on one PC that is, are so very rare anymore).
Any graphics on my PC are pretty much blown away by the X-box. Graphics aren't the only thing, but it is a major part. I mean, pong was revolutionary, but its really ugly now. I am sure PC's will remain a market for games.
One note though... I remember some of the dumbest stupid idiotic games were made for the PC. Like swamp mud racing (hey its the official game of the louisiana mud racing association and all...). How can these ideas get off the ground? Maybe they shouldn't have blown their money on crappy games like that.
I intend to buy both X-box and computer games. Dark age of camelot looks really good, even if its subscription based. Serious Sam is for you all shootemup types, or Unreal Turny 2 is coming out (before the Unreal Championship comes out for console, which is just UT 1.5 or something) Neverwinternights is another game I want, but its not ever going to come out! Ugh

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

"Dark age of camelot looks really good,"

It's not.

Phoenix-D

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

The same reason why I don't buy an X-Box is the same reason why I don't by Grade X Food at the store. If I recall right, under certain conditions, X-Box has the blue-screen of death. hmmm... I wonder if they'll ever fix it...

[ June 14, 2003, 18:27: Message edited by: General Talashar ]

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

Let's see, hmm, the only two games that I've bought in the Last 18 months are: Space Empires IV and Space Empires IV: Gold. The only other game I still play besides SEIV is NHL 2000, you know just because I'm a hockey crazed Canadian. Honestly I couldn't care less for most of the games they put out today. The Last console I bought was Super Nintendo about ten years ago, I figure they're a waste of time and money since they always change and the games feel so much more limited than on a PC.

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

My opinion only, over the years, what I've seen in regards to PC's is that companies hurried production on their games without proper testing. When they came out they usually had so many bugs, that a lot of players eventually just didn't trust them any more and became more selective in what they purchased. This in turn hurt the companies in their pockets. Granted, game companies have to get them out fast in order to obtain $$ but this hurt them in the long run. In addition, there currently is a larger market for the X-box, Nintindos, Play Stations, etc, then there is for PC games. Younger players buy them like crazy. The PC games are usually found among older type players and the PC has now become used for the internet, games are secondary in relation to the internet Users. Thus, the game market is directed where the money is, toward the younger generations, thus the x-boxs etc, have become more popular and thus generates more money. Most PC only companies are hard pressed to compete in this type of market. (my opinion only)

just some ideas mac

Re: Off Topic: A Sad Note About PC Games
 

http://wwics.si.edu/foresight/game/index.htm

Serious Games: Improving Public Policy through Game-Based
Learning and Simulation.