Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

Greetings SP fans. Just finished an assault battle wherein a platoon of Merkavas expended all their HE ammo (save for 4 HEAT rounds) against maybe a dozen obstinate squads and RPG guys on a short ridgeline (four hexes at the top, plain Earth). As the tankers were thus engaged a crescendo of bombardment--perhaps a dozen tubes from 105mm Howitzers to 203m Batteries--crashed down on the target group over the course of 6-7 turns.

Ultimately friendly grunts riding APCs had to finish off the die-hards who refused to abandon their positions even though--for a couple of turns anyway--a few of my units were within the requisite 200 meters (but not in LOS) for enhanced flight encouragement (please see old thread below, Andy's reply post #3). During the entire course of this engagement I did not receive a single message indicating that ANY entrenched casualties had occurred from bombardment (which included 155mm Guns); just one or two routers who had already been driven out by direct fire.

Likewise, since I had plenty of arty, suspected enemy positions were subjected to sustained bombardment by heavies without ever receiving a casualty message. When friendly troops were in sight and range of enemy occupying these areas they seemed to fire back with undiminished fury and effectiveness (the ATGM dismounts were especially unpleasant). Once again direct fire from tanks or APCs, then close-and-personal infantry, was necessary to kill or drive them out. Bombardment was useful only for suppression.

Also have had experiences where my dug-in infantry were on the receiving end of sustained heavy bombardment over 6 turns or more without taking a single casualty. Even rockets--although not CM in these cases--caused nary a scratch.

My questions are:
1) Do 155mm and higher arty (as mentioned in the thread) actually cause casualties among dug-in infantry or dismounts (AT/ATGM teams), or must the targets first rout out of their positions?
2) Do you always get a casualty message (my message delay is set at 1/2) when they're caused by bombardment? IIRC units getting hit sometimes diminish in size or disappear completely w/o a corresponding message of confirmation.
3) With regard to friendly troops being within 200 meters to lower morale among the target(s), do your guys have to be in LOS of the enemy while this saturation bombardment is going on?

Here's the thread link: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44251

Thanks for your kind attention and happy gaming!

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

Dug-in anything, especially infantry type units, are VERY tough to damage/dislodge.

Yes it can be done with mortars/artillery/bombs but it takes a while, 3-6 turns. You'll rarely cause casualties as long as they remain in position but eventually the suppression will cause them to abandon their position.

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

Heavy arty definitely causes causalities 105s down rare more use for suppression. Been on the receiving end & very occasionally it can be quite severe not just the odd man half a squad gone.
Persuading dug in units to retreat using artillery alone requires a decent amount in one turn, one tube is okay to pin units to assist an attack but they need a heavy hammering normally over a turn or 2 to vacate the relative safety of the fortification.
Get to route status with arty & then direct fire at, slightly easier to hit damage I think though they still sometimes stay put to the last man.
I to am using Merkavas & APC MGs to clean out but not at 200 meters more like 400-700m.

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

First thing comes in mind: if that is a scenario battle you're playing, probably the designer had set enemy's infantry toughness to 170% maybe, and reduced quite a good amount on your Arty Effectiveness value.

150 - 203 mm are quite big warhead sizes, and as you say sustained bombardment, normally is enough, not only to kill a few but to rout them running toward the edge. But often the "random dice" roll favors some souls, and despite being a direct hit, they're not even suppressed, while those two hexes away get two casualties & retreating.

Yes, ours or enemy's squads getting casualties from arty don't always get the casualty-message, just the visual-display shows reduced men.

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

I believe that some messages are not displayed if you have "fast artillery" on.

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

I must been playing a different game as I never had any problem losing or causing casualties to enemy infantry, even entrenched.
Then again, I don't play scenarios, which can change things by a lot.

Something that used to be accurate, I haven't REALLY played the game for a couple of patches now and don't know if they changed it since then, CM artillery is better for killing enemy infantry.

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

Have to say I generally put up the artillery values (in prefrences) across the game. 150% in WWII games and 175% in modern games.

Remember Artillery was the number one cause of casualties in both WWI and WWII.

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

A few things come to mind from other threads: remember a hex is 50 meters, so to dislodge dug in infantry takes some roll of the dice in the game engine. Patience especially if you play with default preferences. Eventually, keep in mind a turn is 2 minutes, they will succumb.

Speaking of WW2, naval bombardments ( very big munitions) of Japanese positions on Okinawa preceeded each attack. The Japanese exacted even attrition with each reinforced attack. Not until well into the infantry assault did the Japanese fold.

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Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

As someone who is interested in things Naval. In WWII British destroyers more than once engaged German Tanks over open sites, and a 4.5 or 4.7inch armour piecing shell was sure to ruin a Panzer crews whole day.

Also German sources make it clear that Allied Battleship gunfire in Normandy could easily wreck even a Tiger tank, actually tossing them on their backs. A 14-16inch HE shell (used for shore bombardment, rather than the armour piercing shells used to take on other Battleships) was a really fearsome thing.

Also High Explosive shells were actually okay at taking out barbed wire. The problem in WWI was that field artillery (British 18pder, German 77mm and French 75mm) used shrapnel shells, with a relatively small bursting charge that sent a lot of steel balls towards the target when the shell burst. Great against infantry in the open, less so against dug in infantry and not good at all against barbed wire. HE shells -much more common in WWII- can actually gap barbed wire pretty well.

Final thoughts, I do think that the game slightly under estimates how good WWII artillery was against infantry. I do think the game slightly under estimates how good modern artillery can be against armour.

Final last thoughts: World War II aircraft, even the best of them like the rocket armed RAF Hawker Typhoon of 1944-45, were not as effective against armour as the game makes them. Mostly the unguided rockets missed... In the modern game CBU's from aircraft really should totally ruin infantry in the open.

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

Thanks everyone for your prompt, informative and helpful responses. It was especially gratifying to receive confirmation concerning limited casualty reports with fast arty ON. That helps to explain why some dug-in infantry were eliminated after only a couple of direct-fire casualties. (BTW this was an AI-generated campaign battle so there were no "customized" preferences or unit capabilities--I always play with stock values at 100%.)

Nobody took a stab at question #3 though. No doubt it's an arcane issue which is both complicated in theory and risky in practice. The bottom line is, heavies definitely cause casualties and given enough saturation can drive infantry from their holes. A most useful thing to know. Thanks again everybody!

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

3/. My guess would be: yes - troops are unlikely to be affected by things (enemy troops) they are unaware of.

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

3/ Never taken it into account, certainly adjacent armour can effect morale.
Only things I tend to remember with morale is being in a fortification or causing damage increases it while watching your buddies die or take damage is not good for it.

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

I wasn't able to confirm this, but I have the perception that units that overcrowd a hex are more susceptible to artillery effects. With infantry this is a no brainer, but even with armor I witness far more damaged or KOed tanks when there are say 3 of them in a single hex.

Regarding dug-in units, calibers 122mm or greater are the ones more likely to produce casualties (although I do get some odd successes once in a while, f.e. a 25-pounder knocking out a dug-in Panther tank, or an 81mm mortar killing an infantryman). The others are good for morale purposes. Regardless of that, ALWAYS use artillery when assaulting dug-in units, it will make your life much easier (just careful when close to enemy positions and fire is unobserved, friendly fire sucks).

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

"...careful when close to enemy positions and fire is unobserved.."

Oh yes you will get burned if you by close 200m. I'd rather position my units further back say 450m with assault teams (MGs and snipers), units that can add suppression at range above an infantry rifle. If available, I'd put a couple of IFV to give me added suppression and ability to close with any routed units quickly from 500m back.

But what is most telling in the above quote that I selected is that you must have dedicated field artillery observer to make the call. I know they are expensive but get one over there at that point to call in your arty fires so as to mitigate loss due to friendly fire, especially if you have units as close as 200m, danger close.

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Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

Enemy need to know there are opponents nearby before reacting to them. Unspotted troops wont trigger any "enemy near" adverse morale results.

Units in cover (trenches, rough etc) when badly suppressed will "hunker down" rather than run away, unless they know enemy is nearby and they fail a morale test. Even units in retreat or rout morale state will often remain in the cover hunkered down, but unable to fight effectively - these are "neutralised troops". Units at maximum suppression but not in retreat may also be considered as neutralised - they may not even spot you nearby, or if they do they are likely to have "firer panicked" results should they attempt to fire at 1 hex when severely suppressed.

If I am splattering an area with loads of arty, I often keep fast little units close to the barrage - armoured cars say, or motorcyclists (though those can suffer too many pinned results from hugging the barrage at times). I use these to nip into the beaten and smoke-ridden impact zone and find any neutralised (pinned in place, but either in retreat status, or too much suppressed to spot you) and then shoot up these stunned grunts. I then zip back out of the beaten zone. The main point is to get grunts out of cover so they dont hunker down, so I dont try to kill them with extra fires unless they were down near dispersal levels. The artillery about to land will be the main killer once they are flushed into the open, and once out in the open any with retreat or rout level will tend to keep on running - if in cover, they may not.

If you just stand outside a bombarded area waiting for the enemy to "magically go away" - they likely wont, in any useful amount of time. Especially dug in troops that have trenches to shelter from the bombardment - they know its better to hunker down and endure the shelling rather than do a runner!.

You do need to go in and use the bayonet on them really, or depleted units in cover will still be hunkered down weathering the barrage.

You can rally away any suppression caused by "leaning" on the barrage often enough. he has to stay suppressed till his turn.

So -
- make sure he knows you are close by. He may fail morale tests and run away from you. Eventually.
- and/or go in and engage him when you think he has been suppressed to neutralisation levels. In other words, take full advantage of the barrage effects.

Re: Dug-in Infantry, Artillery Bombardment, Kills and Casaulty Reports
 

Since Naval gunfire was mentioned...
When delivering INDIRECT naval artillery (gun) fire support from a moving ship, the firing data is plotted from a position ahead of the ship and the guns fire as the ship reaches that point. The large bursting area of a 16" shell is offset by the slower rate of fire. In US Battleship operations, each turret would often operate as an independent battery. This would allow three separate targets to be engaged by an Iowa class BB with 3 shells each.
The game may seem to under rate the shell's power but IMO it also gives them a higher ROF and quicker response time. This does not cover DIRECT fire and I note the game generalizes the variety of ship classes.