another project for someone
 

The info I found on the German Jaguar SPATGM vehicles only confuses me more.....there appear to be two naming systems and I am unclear if any version is still in service......so if anyone has any good intel I'm very interested

Don

Re: another project for someone
 

It appears that it was originally built as:

Raketenjagdpanzer 2 armed with SS-11 and in service 1967 to 1983ish with 370 built.

After the HOT missile was developed, they converted 316 Raketenjagdpanzer 2's to carry it (Euromissile K3S HOT) from 1978 to 1983. The converted vehicles were redesignated JAGUAR 1. Removed from Bundeswehr service by 2005.

From 1983 to 1985, some 165 Kanone Jagdpanzer (the one with 90mm gun) were converted by removal of the 90mm gun and addition of the TOW ATGM system. Additional armor was also added. These vehicles were redesignated JAGUAR 2.

In 1989, the Jaguar 2 received the TOW 2 missile system.

In 1993, the Jaguar 2 tank destroyers were phased out in favour of the Jaguar 1A3, an upgraded version of the Jaguar 1.

While it may seem bizarre that the Jaguar 1 survived, but the Jaguar 2 didn't...a small tidbit may explain why.

The Jaguar 1's HOT missile-system was fully automatic, with a gas-proof magazine drum containing eight missiles, with 12 more missiles carried inside the vehicle.

Meanwhile, the Jaguar 2 had to manually reload the TOW missile, I think. But it had I believe a thermal sight built into the TOW launcher; which could be dismounted and fired away from the vehicle. So basically Jaguar 2 was an armored tracked TOW-Humvee.

Jaguar 1A3 added a second generation TI sight; giving the Bundeswehr a fully under armor NBC protected ATGM system with genuine night fighting capability; which is why it survived and Jaguar 2 didn't.

Jane's claims:

Jane's also claims that the Jaguar 1's transferred to the Austrian Army got TI sights added and were converted to HOT 3.

Jane's also claims that the reason the Bundeswehr went with the Jaguar 2 when they had the Jaguar 1 was because TOW was much cheaper per missile in addition to the standard TOW launcher selected already having the AN/TAS-4 TI sight.

Re: another project for someone
 

danke schön..:D


I *think* German Unit 77 should be OOS 12/93 and unit 76 should be renamed Jaguar 1A3 and be in-service 1/94.... ?

also looks like the Jag 2 carried fewer missiles...12 vs 20 HOT in the Jag 1's and it also looks like the ROF could stand some scrutiny considering the HOT's are autoloaded......AND the TOW needs to be W164 instead of W158

I just love OOB work .......< heavy sarcasm.......>:banghead

Don

Re: another project for someone
 

Mark has done a great job here. These more for general FYI...
First shows JAGUAR I/Raketenjagdpanzer-3 during trails with HOT. Takeaways: Carried a load-out of 20 HOT ATGW. Interesting watching the launcher and reloading ops.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSiFC4kueiQ

Next is the JAGUAR II/Raketenjagdpanzer-4 from a 1984 German Army video. I think this is the best I've seen on a TOW mounted launcher and operation. It should be pointed out that the TOW Launcher could be used independent of the vehicle and operated from the ground. Under certain conditions, it's easy to see the advantage of that option.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekUkjZ9dil0

Might be something useful here on characteristics...
http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsyste...%20Jaguar.html
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/co...gdpanzer-I.php
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/co...gdpanzer-2.php
https://www.facebook.com/tankmuseum/...235842/?type=3
http://www.wardrawings.be/Modern/Sit...PG/Jaguar2.htm

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: another project for someone
 

HOT 3 were purchased concurrently with HOT 2:
https://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/VHG...81/index.shtml

TI is tricky - I find some claims that the upgrade happened in 2005, but also that the sights were only purchased but not installed because the vehicles were already going out of service.
Only thing I can say for sure is "not before 2003."
http://www.rechnungshof.gv.at/berich...-jaguar-1.html

Re: another project for someone
 

Which raises the question........when did they go OOS in Austria.....I saw one hint it was 2010 :confused::confused:

Re: another project for someone
 

After watching the way the Jag 1's reloaded the HOTs and how the Jag 2 reloaded TOWs I see why they upgraded the 1's:)

Re: another project for someone
 

.....also , the info I have ( sketchy.......) leaves some doubt in regard to if the Jag 1A3's are still in German Sevice or not..... :confused:

Re: another project for someone
 

Looks like May 2006 - that's when they started looking for buyers.
The unit using them was disbanded one year later, effective July 1st 2007.
http://www.rechnungshof.gv.at/berich...rpruefung.html

"2010" looks like a simple misunderstanding - the reform project was named "Bundesheer 2010" but that was the projected end date, work actually started in 2004.

Re: another project for someone
 

Now corrected

Re: another project for someone
 

I thought the Germans got rid of the Jaguar when they thought the Cold War was over?

This attachment is from The Military Balance 2016 (IISS). It lists the equipment that they think the Germans had in 2016.

Re: another project for someone
 

I finally found something that gave a date

http://www.wikiwand.com/de/Jaguar_(Jagdpanzer)

if that is correct we have in in service 5 years too soon.....<more digging required )

and the Austrians gave up on it a year later

http://www.bundesheer.at/cms/artikel.php?ID=2686

Re: another project for someone
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanonenjagdpanzer

Wiki I know - but built from 1966 on from that article.

Which we have in service a year early, if thats the case

Re: another project for someone
 

Wikiwand is just one of parasite services, that copy free original Wikipedia content, without any own input, but with commercials. Original:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_(Jagdpanzer)

Re: another project for someone
 

THIS is how things get screwed up......Andy quotes on the Kanonenjagdpanzer which is NOT the vehicle in question ( but it DOES say.....In service 1965–1990 )
and Micheal gives me a dead link.......Diese Seite existiert nicht but when I use the correct link it confirms 1978 is the in-service date for the Jaguar 1....it took 4-5 years to convert the SS11 versions to HOT which the game already shows

The inservice date I quoted for the the Jaguar 1 fits . There are 5 vehicles in that line

RakJagdPz1 SS11
RakJagdPz2 SS11
Jaguar 1 HOT
Jaguar 2 TOW
Jaguar 1A3 HOT

right now I am confident the dates I have in my working OOB are correct enough I do not need further "help" like this

Re: another project for someone
 

I've edited the link manually - it seems, that the forum system saves automatically last ")" behind a link (the same with wikiwand link you wrote before).

Re: another project for someone
 

Strange. ..it works in the quote Andy uses but not in the original....very strange.....it's corrected now as well

Re: another project for someone
 

Okay, I've searched what can be found on suspicious Russian black market servers ;) and found the book "Kanonenjagdpanzer und Raketenjagdpanzer der Bundeswehr / Tank Destroyers Gun/Missile of the Modern German Army", by Tankograd Publishing 2007

It can be downloaded from depositfiles: https://dfiles.eu/files/t8o7zl9hp

If you prefer not to download from such sources, I can extract some jpegs with text.

In general it says, that there were:
- RakJagdPz1 SS11 (HS30 chassis), produced from 1961,
- RakJagdPz2 SS11, produced from 10/1967 (the army received first ones in outbreak of 1967/68)
- Jaguar 1 HOT, converted from 1978, "later" fitted with HOT 2, and from 1992 with HOT 2T (tandem)
- Jaguar 2 TOW, converted from 1983, fitted with improved TOW from 1989

PS. I've corrected the quoted wikiwand link manually.

Re: another project for someone
 

According to other Tankograd no 5002 nook: The Early Years of the Modern German Army:
- unit 87 M42 supplemented AA battalions from 1957 (now 11/55)

- unit 331 Alouette II - used from 1959 (now 1965)

Re: another project for someone
 

The original thread's question has been answered the thread is closed