thermal imaging...
 

Well, I'm playing a campaign, with cccp, I took a sort of Guard tank battalion, with T64b and etc...

After a couple of battle, to be honest simple battle, against canadian, us army pop up with a swarm of M60 TTI rise...meeting engagement battle...I have lost every win possibility around turn 20...then it come the slaughter house, the TI superiority it's overwhelming, add to this a snow scenario with restricted visibility and that's it.

Only my bmp-1 k "korshun" ( btw...it's that the BMP version with ground surveillance radar?) could see them, the rest of my army was almost blind...

How do you manage these situations?

P.s. why a lot of enemy infantry pop up from no where ??
P.s. why seem that my infantry can see a crap instead the enemys can see miles?

Re: thermal imaging...
 

In limited visibility If one side has TI and the other doesn't it can be a HUGE advantage!

In general a whole bunch of stuff affects how good you are at spotting other stuff - not least Troop Experience, movement and Troop Type. A stationary, high experience, infantry stand will be MUCH better at seeing stuff than an inexperienced, moving AFV.

Stuff doesn't "pop up" it was previously unseen...

Re: thermal imaging...
 

This is why its a major growth area at the moment open terrain & you can pick off your enemy before he sees you like the Gulf War turkey shoot.
Snow makes this hard as you need to use your troops as scouts to find them then attack somewhere suitable.
If its an open map you are in big trouble otherwise you need to pick areas within your vision range for the battles.

Unless you are talking late 90s+ Russian troops generally have better night vision than USA in the game as a rule.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

The "key" to beating an enemy with better vision then yours is use the terrain to limit their opportunities to fire beyond the range you can see. Hide behind hills, in woods, behind buildings, ambush the suckers at short range. Also make full use of your Infantry AT.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

^^^That's it in a nutshell.^^^ Not so easy in open desert though...

Re: thermal imaging...
 

What Suhiir said is what I do as well. TI gives you a range advantage, so you want to negate that. Other tricks:

1) Start shooting the moment you see the enemy tanks. After they pop smoke, go into defile, retreat etc. The catch here is that you can make them expend all their smoke then, so they will be much easier to deal with when their smoke's out.

2) Try to predict their route of advance and make a killing ground with multiple tanks/ATGMs. Your assets should be at least on both flanks of the enemy advance, and preferably to the front as well. If you do that, you will always have at least one hull/turret flank shot, in which case the enemy tank's dead.

3) Buy DPICM artillery and the moment their advance is halted by something (infantry is the best in that) bring the steel rain of death upon them. M60's are particularly vulnerable to this.

4) Make them focus on your infantry (by having the latter fire at the enemy tanks) and then bring a tank and whack when they are out of shots for the turn.

These/a combination of these help me defeat TI equipped enemies on a regular basis. The fact that tanks with TI are WAY more expensive also helps.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Nice hints chaps.
Another question that I have is: the NATO infantrys , americans and etc, seem to be more effective than mine Volgograd oblast guys; they stand more under fire and use the f$*^% LAW as snipers...is this related to training or what? They also seem to have better vision /spotting range...and maybe morale because sometimes I unleash Grads upon them for a couple of turn but they still operative...when a couple of mortar hit suppress my guys.

A thing related to campaign: the campaign propose to press on the attack, after a won in a meeting engagement, but my force were usually so dilapidated that I never dear to press the attack on...it's normal? Maybe it's something related to CCCP vs NATO situation...

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Training and experience are big factors in the game, as is weaponry.

Factors concerning vision/spotting are:

Movement - Stationary units are harder to spot and have a better chance to spot others, conversely moving units are easier to spot and less likely to spot others.

Entrenchment - MUCH harder to spot, bonus to morale, harder to hit/damage.



Artillery/mortars/rockets/bombs are all damn useful, but don't expect to actually destroy much with them. Mostly they suppresses the enemy so they fire less and their morale is lowered. Hit them with with indirect fire then get in close with infantry to destroy them. That said, if you can catch them in the open and moving then yes, indirect fire can be lethal. But stationary ... not so much.

Never fight one-vs-one, gang up on an enemy unit and destroy it ASAP.

Computer generated campaigns are pretty much even odds fights every battle. You have to fight "better", you can't afford to trade one-for-one. The AI isn't terribly smart. Usually it's best to find a good defensive position and let them come at you for the first 1/2-2/3rd of a game then mop up whatever is left.

Depending on specific time period the balance swings between the CCCP and NATO. Till about the late 70's the CCCP tends to have the advantage, in the 80's it's pretty even, 90's and later NATO tends to have the advantage.

Hope this helps.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Your hints helped a lot!

Btw another annoying thing it's the resilience of immobilized tanks...usually they become immobilized inside smoke or forested areas, they seem easy target but for some reason they are able to wipe out every and each unit that approach the adjacent hexes.
The only time where I haven't lost something trying to destroy an immobilized tank, it's when I wasted the actions of 5 tanks in area fire before launch a couple of Mech section to take it out.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

1/ They are obviously not moving so not taking a penalty for doing so....

2/ You have to get close in forest and smoke and they (usually ) get the first shot in and because it's one hex range the effect is higher

3. you have now learned that just because it's immobilized does NOT mean it's helpless. From your description I can just imagine what transpired as you assumed an easy kill then sent in tanks piecemeal and they were chewed up.... never assume a wounded animal is helpless...same for disabled tanks in places where you have to get up close and personal.....that is what the infantry is for AFTER saturating the area with artillery

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Machineguns also do wonders for suppression of infantry/armor as well.

A while back Don sent me a WW II scenario (USMC vs Japan) to test. The US side had swarms (by USMC standards) of M5 light tanks ... 3 machineguns each ... so I just used them en-mass to locate/suppress the dug-in Japanese infantry and took very light casualties.

Don seemed rather surprised :D

And unless the opposition has TI smoke is wonderful stuff used offensively.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Uhm ok....but in one occasion a crew from an immobilized chieftain bailed out and abbandon it...I don't know why, but I was pretty near with my infantrys.

Have you ever use the SEAD aircraft? I BOUGHT A COUPLE of mig 27 khaira, they made 3 stand of attack scoring no kills, even if the enemy AA were spotted...every time they switched off their radar leaving the missile blind..

Air support seems to be pretty pointless to me, every time I tried it I was deluded, enemy AA smash my aircrafts even before drop the payload...a point waste, on the contrary the AI air support it's precise and deadly...and my AA, usually 6 ZSU 23-4 and 3 strela, defenceless against it...why?

At the moment I found the games against AI pretty challenging, but using your hints of wait for them the situation seem to become too easy...or at least easier...it's possible to set some form off enhanced AI? With which setting you play ?

Re: thermal imaging...
 

If a unit is immobilised in a position where it can no longer effect the battle just leave it be & carry on.
If your losing more important things, if winning & you want every enemy unit & are doing well easy option if you still have arty available & some form of transport get it in clean up.

Once you think enemy force moral is broken hit it with artillery for a few turns, the crew will bail out and retreat straight into the arms of the unit you sent back to intercept it.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Crews will abandon immobilised AFV if their morale is low - whether because they are the last tank of their platoon, the tank is heavily damaged, they are heavily suppressed or they know enemy is nearby, especially enemy infantry. Also if everybody around them is in retreat or worse, and/or they are isolated with known enemy nearby.

A track hit on an AFV which throws a bad morale result can lead to it immediately spitting out its surviving crew. If the track hit was the result of artillery or air bombardment then that can subsequently take out the crew.

Aircraft are only really worth the bother if you have swarms of them. SEAD planes can be useful for destroying enemy AAA units, if you buy some then buy them before the strike air so their effects come first and help the other planes. SEAD would likely only be bought if I had like 8 or 9 or more flights, and decided to spend the support points on them - i.e. an assault or an attack.

A few planes are usually not much cop - the flak may well handle those. It depends, in the early era with low ECM values on the AAA and SAMs they can do well.

I played a PBEM against a guy who forgot to buy any air defence one time, and his T-62s were the ones without an AAMG. My 2 hunters made hay in that battle!.

Air power is useful because it allows you to concentrate firepower in an operational area from hundreds of miles away. But SP battles are tactical - the points are generally better spent on artillery, though attack helos are an exception if they have good ATGM, and good EW rating.

AIrcraft are a great help if attacking or assaulting though - they can spot the enemy defenders for you.

But air power should always be uses en masse, not in driblets except against an insurgent enemy with only a few AAAMG and a couple of strelas.

In SP games, your artillery is always available and its far more dependable than planes which may decide to strafe an AAA vehicle or a truck, or even unload ordnance on your own guys. Artillery is also more persistent - a battery has 50+ shells per gun.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

I regularly use SEAD aircraft as I regularly play the USMC which relies HEAVILY on air support and helos. I usually find that a single SEAD aircraft is sufficient to deal with opposition radar guided AA then use helos to deal with the rest. Once the majority of their AA has been delt with air strikes are of some utility. But as Mobhack said, they're really only useful if you have swarms of them (6-8+), and that's not even remotely cost effective.

As Mobhack said, for the cost artillery is FAR more effective then aircraft. I tend to think of aircraft as a "flavor" element in WinSPMBT rather then a useful (for the cost) combat unit.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

I agree with both posters above me, air strike utility in this game is limited. The biggest problem is that you rarely can buy more than 2 air strikes per random game (unless playing as the USA) and if your opponent takes even a minimum of good air defenses, which aren't that expensive tbh, they are more of a liability than an asset. That being said, if you find using air strikes useful you should always remember to properly plan the routes of the air strike, the point being having your aircraft spend the least amount of time possible flying over the enemy side of the map (which is where most AA will be). And, like Mobhack said, use them in mass, not in isolated packs.

And for some reason I never liked SEAD aircraft. But even them are better than level bombers which is a unit just for show.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Dont entirely agree, yes aircraft or more of a lottery & hardest arm to use but they can be very powerfull.
Using against a higher Tech force is generally a bad idea but with parity or superiority can be very effective. For sure more effective in numbers unless a low tech force whenthey can still survive long enough to be beneficial.

WWII find it hard to resist all those German toys often find myself buying one good one, time to make hay.
Aaagh yet again damn AI and pesky allied air put an end to those plans, thats the AI nothing clever.

Evaluating points spent on air is not simply a case of points spent vs points killed far more important is information gathered, distraction upset caused. Never had your surprise attack totally ruined by air probably at the cost of several turns setting it up or saved your bacon by spotting their flank move.

Remember its combined arms they can be used to gather info & attack targets on their own away from ground battle but are best off supporting it, hopefully kill something but at least suppress when someone can take advantage of that. Timing you don’t need to just keep sending them in.
As said combined arms they support the ground force but need support themselves, artillery should be targeting AAA, even if not destroyed suppressed AAA helps the planes survive. Always buy planes after arty to simplify this.

Some cases they can be very useful most obvious one that comes to mind.
Air has parity or better, similar or higher EW rating.
Enemy tanks are superior impervious from the front to most of your weapons.
So you need flank shots on enemy tanks which can be very difficult to set up in some locations.
These take time to set up & more than likely is causing losses to your ground force.
Simple save time & men call in the air, if they have the weaponry use them to take out the tank.
If not setup a pass behind it, with a bit of luck you might detect more units & the tank will turn to engage opening it up for your ground forces flank shot.
So what if my plane did not kill it worth every point for creating the opportunity.

Know your enemy before committing to air because its different to artillery but in the right circumstances it can be very effective. The info it gives you on enemy positions alone can be priceless especially if your force is not mobile so you have some advance warning.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Most interesting conversation in which I find a lot to agree with out here. John (Imp) does well to remind everyone this is a combined arms game, should I ever play a PBEM game this much I promise is that's how I've always balanced out my forces and why not? Isn't that what happens in RL and with the AI? Why would you do anything other yourself? That's the start point, "the fog of war" in between will determine how and if you arrive at your end point. That's how and when you'll really learn to play the game by knowing how to maximize your available forces at any given time under any given circumstances during a game. The AI in this game is persistent, you need to be more so just as I'm sure many human players are. Like a popular show on TV here, "you have to outwit and outlast your opponent(s) to win" regardless who that opponent is.

Playing the AI for as many years as I have before these current games, and generally speaking, I've found the AI from the start will buy top tier tanks, better than average troops, ATGM teams and some sort of artillery. My AI is normally always "tank heavy".

I prefer a platoon of the best tanks I can get, a mix of average to above average troops, artillery and if I have enough a pair of AH birds for tanks. And as I've stated many times I do maintain a logistics train (I only wish the AI could as well.). This gives me some greater flexibility in my assets with the cost being obviously expensive in resources and normally out numbered by the enemy. I do expand my "core" to cover other areas of the combined arms such as airmobile for deep insertions and as opponent HQ killers, which if I find them or suspect where they are I will take them out. If your going to kill a snake, you always cut off it's head.

Along with the above mentioned...

1. You must always "terrain mask" your units where you can, AI always has ATGM and SAM/AA units.

2. Like Chess, you should before you move look at least two to three moves ahead with your main attacking force. Also put yourself in the "If I was my enemy what would I do to counter what I see now." you must be able to anticipate your enemies moves.

3. If you're going to put your artillery in a CB position, you must go all in to be effective this is obviously referring to your "Off Map" arty. Anything less is ineffective. When to do this, that you'll just have to learn for yourself as I did. Just know there is a right time when to do this.

4. Never leave helos (or tanks) in the same space for more than a couple of turns, especially as you move closer to the front. Remember always the AI is constantly moving units to the front. So the concern is those ATGM and MANPAD teams getting within range to start creating havoc.

5. As pointed out by Suhiir, SEAD in very valuable in this game, because your best air anti-tank weapon is the AH. AI will very early on have advanced SAM units when it sees you have helos or start using air support. YOU need to buy the same as AI likes them as well, particularly ground attack and SEAD units. Your SEAD units are effective in suppressing rear area tanks/mortar and field arty that are over watching key victory hexes and combat units down range closer to the frontlines. This of course after they've met your SAM suppression requirements. Never seen the AI use them like that though.

6. AI China and Russia love to late in the game at times send in airmobile units to capture victory hexes behind your lines as well. Be prepared for this possibility.

7. Buy some SP field artillery, the above should make this clear. They're tough to spot and can give you more direct combat support.

8. There's so much more but, give yourself and the game a chance. Be patient it'll take many games to find your stride.

9. Don't be afraid to ask questions and for us in helping never forget you were where that person was once upon a time and against the right opponent maybe still are on any given turn where you made a :eek:/:doh: move.

10. JUST HAVE FUN! You'll find the right balance of forces once you determine the type of player you are but if your too aggressive well like the Russians said at KURSK "The Tigers are Burning". Too passive well, you'll pretty much also experience the above and just lose sooner regardless of who your opponent is.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Point 6 made me laugh, does not happen often but can be a nightmare, nothing like rushing back to save your artillery & driving into a nest of ATGM's

Re: thermal imaging...
 

--Spoiler Alert--

Really. If you want a challenging scenario in which the enemy have TI and you don't try #179, The Bear Strikes (WP), a Soviet assault battle. Tried it several times; even after destroying most of (apparently) a company of TI-equipped Abrams and Bradleys on the first ridge objective there are still enough left to tear huge gaps in my assault columns. Plus they and the West Germans have cluster munitions which are devastating.

Since T-80s can't see them through the fire and smoke generated by arty (they're dug in on tree hexes mostly) I can't finish them off. Airstrikes either can't find them or fail to hit and most aircraft, including SEAD, are damaged on their first sorties from "bristling" air defenses. Any advanced infantry get pinned down by hard-to-spot MGs. What's an armchair general to do? Thanks.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Its a long time since I've played the scenario (I got a marginal victory), but IIRC what I did was use my dismounts to draw fire and provide an overwhelming amount of targets. The Abrams would reveal themselves eventually, at which point they were easy prey for my T80s. Any MGs and dismounted infantry will be dealt with T80s popping out of cover, firing some shots and going back. In addition to that, I managed to sneak one T80 company through the woods to the north and come in front in Abrams at point blank range, just as they finished firing their round for the turn. It was messy and I had casualties in both infantry and tanks, but I managed to break through the ridge and after that the scenario becomes much easier.

Tbh, nowadays what I would do is use the Hinds that you have IIRC and draw fire from these. They are hard to kill and the moment the Abrams reveal themselves they are dead meat. T80s can kill them then. If they pop smoke, wait until it clears and attack again. Hinds themselves can kill the enemy tanks too if they hit the turret side armor.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

As pointed out by others combined arms is the key to WinSPMBT. I don't play vs a "Tank Heavy" AI thus tend to face more man portable ATGMs and MPADs then most folks. I rarely see the AI use less then 9 MPADs, 12+ is not uncommon. While I don't often run into TI equipped AI forces it's merely a matter of not trying to go head-to-head with them in open terrain. If then enemy is hiding behind smoke delay or withdraw slightly till it clears. Advance some infantry scouts (any infantry unit will do) with their weapons set to fire at very short ranges in the best covered and concealed areas you can find.

You aren't going to "zerg rush" your way to victory in WinSPMBT like you do in many (most?) other games. Numbers count, but don't begin to insure victory.

My biggest "complaint" about the automatically generated battles in the game is that they rarely allow time for anything but a "banzai" charge. This is why I tend to go out of my way in the scenarios I create to make them long enough to permit scouting and flanking maneuvers should the player elect to do so.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Thanks folks. Your solutions sound pretty sensible, although easier said than done. What may have thrown me off is that in this scenario pounding the ridge with arty can be counterproductive. While it does suppress enemy units it can obscure my side's vision. Maybe better to use it on targets my deep-penetration scouts spot in the rear. There are 40 turns in this which is a fair amount of time to do some careful recon.

Anyway thanks again and happy gaming!

Re: thermal imaging...
 

So how much longer do you think they should be and which generated battles? Singles or campaigns?

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Usually 3 more turns would be enough to allow some recon/flanking.

Obviously you don't want battles too long, but a little extra time will give the player time to do something besides a frontal assault should the elect to do so.

I'm probably a more "cautious" player then most, I don't see trading casualties for a quick victory as reasonable. Even in a single battle scenario in the back of my mind I'm thinking "I need to keep my forces capable of fighting the next battle."

Re: thermal imaging...
 

I don't find the scenario time in generated battles that short tbh, especially in recent patches. The battles I've played were more than 40 turns on average, even in meeting engagements, which is more than enough to beat the AI and good enough for PBEM as well.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

I'm guessing ... GUESSING ... you don't play infantry heavy battles. Sometimes I get a generated battle short enough you don't even have time to move infantry from the starting zone to the battle. If there had been APCs etc. it wouldn't have been an issue.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Well you are right in that my favorite kind of force is the "balanced" mechanized force, mostly mechanized infantry with a healthy dose of tanks. Tank heavy or infantry heavy forces are not that interesting IMO (and RL biases may come into play here :p). But on to the topic.

Last random generated battles I've played were something like 40 something for meeting engagements and close to 50-60 turns for advances/assaults. That is IMHO enough for even an infantry force to come close to the objectives and fight the battle, but you need to always deploy as much forward as the game permits. But if I'm wrong or you thing this is not enough, I believe you can go to the map when on the deployment screen and change the time limit for the game, so the solution is quite simple.

Or you can play in smaller maps when fighting an infantry heavy battle, that also does the trick.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Playing on tall narrow maps 160x40 can be interesting as long as it's not 500 units per side ( but somebody would love that )

Re: thermal imaging...
 

My China vs Russia scenario isn't that extreme but it's a fairly narrow map with a lot of units coming in waves on the Chinese side.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

In WW2 battles where I am fighting with a dismounted infantry force as the default, then I find an 80x80 battlefield best suits that.

Once the grunts are generally provided with APCs then larger battlefield widths make more sense.

Of course, when the battle is generated you can use the "view map" function to look at it and maybe add more time if you think the map requires it. (The game already hands out more turns on some more difficult or jungly maps etc). Scenarios though are stuck with what the designer input for them.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Suhiir just generate the battle & adjust length by 3-5 turns on map screen if you know thats your preference

Re: thermal imaging...
 

Hinds may be hard to kill but now they take damage from Stingers, even from the front. Already had one chased off the map with a point of damage from one. Seems like the last patch made them more effective (assuming "AAA" includes missiles):

" AAA hits on armoured aircraft were screening out most of the damage from the small warheads . AAA fire that hits a target aircraft now has a higher chance of doing damage."

Re: thermal imaging...
 

It does, since it was in the code that determines air damage. MANPADS have smaller warhead size too.

Re: thermal imaging...
 

--Spoiler Alert--

Just finished it myself, cutting the ratio for a marginal too close for comfort (6,200:12,740). Had the 3 Leopards taking pothots at a T-80 sticking its snout out from defilade on the penultimate turn not providentially missed it would've been a draw. Whew!

Carelessly lost 3 T-80s coming off the first ridge towards the town--didn't smoke off the next ridge, so they got whacked by Milans from Marders and dismounts across the way. In addition sloppy play like turning tail instead of using the 8-key to scurry for cover and showing flank to Jaegers lost a couple more.

Those Gepard A1s with radar F/C were murder on BTRs; seems they can fire through smoke at ground targets. Meanwhile could hardly spot anything until almost on top of them, sometimes even in the same hex! No sense in plotting air missions without visible targets so the flyboys stayed out of this one.

Anyway good to have this monkey off my back. Might make a full-blooded AAR about it but as you say it was messy. Need to recover from the strain first. Cheers!