Helicopter inaccuracies
 

I am a Viet Nam vet with 19 months experience in Hueys in combat as a gunship crew chief and I am frustrated with the helicopter capabilities.

Let me preface the rest of my comments with KUDOS to those who keep the game in great shape. I have been playing it since it was a DOS product and now that I am retired I will play it every day until I kick off.

Currently I am playing a long campaign starting in 1966 - that is when I started working with helicopters, H-13 and H-21.

Gunship platoons typically had 8 UH-1B or C models, usually 2 were armed with the 40mm M-5 grenade launcher, 2 7 shot rocket pods (2.75 FFAR) and 2 M-60 door guns. One was a "Hog" with 2 24 shot rocket pods and 2 door guns.The other 5 were either flex gun ships if UH-1B or mini-gun ships if UH-1C. A flex gun system was 2 M-60 and 7 rocket pods to a side plus the door guns, a mini-gun ship had a 7.62 mini-gun and 7 rocket pods to a side plus the door guns. The mini-gun ship was the most common gun ship but it is not represented in the game. Suggestions for the UH-1C Mini-gun ship:
M-134 mini-gun 6 shots – but the impact results should reflect a 600 round, 3 second burst;
M-134 mini-gun 6 shots;
2x2.75 FFAR 7 shots,
M-60 door guns 90 shots.

Another frustration is having the aircraft turn tail and run. Gunship crews were volunteers and were the most experienced crews in the unit, running off the board would end your flying career. They would, however, take evasive action to look for a better attack point.

Instead of an aircraft simply crashing when shot down, it was more common for an aircraft that was shot down to auto-rotate to a safe landing, be recovered and fly again. During TET we sent five gunships to Quang Ngai City under attack by two battalions of VC. We killed over two hundred and wounded hundreds more without losing an aircraft or a man, however, none of our aircraft were flyable by the end of the day, although within 24 hours all aircraft were back in service.

I think that to make playability more realistic, you need to reduce the damage possibilities from just small arms, leave everything else the same. When an aircraft has received max damage, if at low level it can auto-rotate to a clear hex within three hexes and the crew escapes. The aircraft is recoverable unless destroyed on the ground, and the crew has the opportunity to escape and evade. If at high altitude, extend the auto-rotation possibilities to 5 clear hexes. If there are no clear hexes available the aircraft crashes and the crew might not escape. If double max damage occurs, the aircraft is destroyed in the air.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

Try an experiment.......build a test scenario using the Helos you mentioned then increase crew experience and morale using the "modify current units data" then see if that changes things closer to what you remember.

Helos leave the map when damage becomes an issue rather than letting it accumulate.........it's a "safety valve" because most players would not retire the unit when damage became critical.

Auto-rotating landings rather than crashing would require "creative" code work that may or may not be possible

EDIT......I *ASSUME* when you write " aircraft" you are only referring to helos....?

Otherwise, we are glad you are enjoying the game in your retirement and happy to see you posting on the forums. You may want to consider building copy of the US OOB as an R&D then experiment with formation and weapon combinations then post it here for me to look at so I know exactly what you are thinking needs to be adjusted. Set them up separate as TEST formations or units..you may want to increase morale and experience modifiers as well to see how that works...currently Helo formations are not treated as "elite" units with + modifiers...maybe they should be but keep in mind "if we do it for one.......we do it for all"

In the meantime, if anyone else want's to join in the conversation, feel free...especially if you have first-hand experience like Don or are just a "gamer"....it seems to me the general impression is Helos are too difficult to shoot down...

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

While I certainly understand the "need" to have helo's auto withdraw (as you said many players wouldn't retire them) it does bother me that they do so after taking a single point of damage.

Would it be possible (without an unreasonable amount of code changing) to have them withdraw when they reach say 50% of their max damage threshold?

donscott:
If you want the mini-gunship steal one from the USMC OOB (Unit# 884 - "UH-1E+ Gunship" available in 9/67).

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

OOOKKKAAYY - you realize I'm older than dirt and my mind is just as crusty. I've never done this before but I'll give it a shot. By the way, KUDOs for the 2018 update, looks good.

Of course when I talk about aircraft, I'm talking helos, there is no other option.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

Think of it as a mind exercise. Just look at what's been done then build your own copies using a marker that they are experimental ( EXP) or TEST or just X_

Thank you.

I expected as much but aircraft ( real ones with those wingy things off to each side :D ) and helos are two different game animals

Don

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

Since the US OOB is getting short on unit slots if there is an existing unit that could be armed "more correctly" that's the better way than a new unit. In late '66 there are already 4 UH-1B's in the US OOB......there is 1 in USMC.....so I think the reason to " borrow" one from there is not necessary

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

As long as no systems were disrupted we would stay in the fight and often not know how bad the damage was until we landed. We were mostly volunteer adrenaline junkies anyway.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

Andy might be able to adjust that..... admittedly it is annoying to have your helos go into retreat with minimal damage and delaying that until 90% damage might be somewhat more realistic....I haven't looked at the code to see what would be involved and I only have a rudimentary knowledge of coding anyway

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

I just double checked and Attack helos do get a +5 Experience boost already

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

I went in and changed some things, but it didn't change anything when I tried to build a battle, maybe that was the wrong approach.

The first thing I did was change the minigun, weapon 185. I tried to figure what the strike impact would be from a 3 second 600 round burst, think I set it at 30 HE. This should be discussed.

I changed the UH-1B gunship to:
Weapon 1 2xM-60 (134) 40 HE, they carried 1800 rounds per gun.
Weapon 2 same
Weapon 3 2x2.75 FFAR 7 (177), we carried 7 shots to a side.
Weapon 4 door guns, 2xM-60 (134) 30HE we carried about 2,000 rounds per gun.

I added door guns to the UH-1B SS-11.

I changed Unit 862 UH-1B Maxwell to a UH-1C Mini-gun ship.
Weapon 1 mini-gun (185)6 shots, we carried 3700 rounds but when you fire 600 rounds in three seconds you run out fast. Hint-have ammo resupply available.
Weapon 2, also a mini-gun
Weapon 3, 2x2.75 FFAR (177) 7
Weapon 4, doorguns

The UH-1C Frog (893)- (I hated that name, mine was just the M-5 ship), I took away the AP ammo, we had no way of changing types of ammo in action. I changed the rockets to 7 and added door guns.

The UH-1C and UH-1M were virtually the same aircraft except for the engine. The AH-1G, UH-1H and UH-1M had a stronger engine then earlier models. I think you don't need units 892 or 894.

+5 experience boost barely makes up for the swagger, but I guess it will have to do.

The UH-1E of the Marines did not have a min-gun, it had the TAT-101 system of two M-60's under the nose. They didn't carry much ammo.

I know you are busy, but I wrote an article about UH-1 Armament that I posted on Armchair General, Vietnam thread, user name Rotorwash, just in case you get bored.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

I have copied this to our notes for next year and will have a look at some point.. I am in he middle of another project ATM.

Post the link to that article

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

The game does that depending on the target...remember this is a GAME not a simulation....we try to come close but sometimes you just have to accept things like this

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

Wiki claims

Accurate ?

IDK where " frog" came from. ( rhymes with " hog " ? ). I "inherited" the job of maintenance of these OOB's

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

Maybe some did..............

https://www.helis.com/database/modelorg/852/

Every Marine UH1E that I worked (about 34 ) had the Elastomeric 540 rotor system (same as the Marine AH1G model Cobra, except they retained the stab bar), instead of the 204 wet head. Some had the air intake scope of the B/C models some had the particle separator basket. Several had been fitted with a chin turret including a 7.62 mini gun and a 40mm grenade launcher. The aircraft I worked on were with HML-267/HML-367 in 1974/1975.



"a 7.62 mini gun and a 40mm grenade launcher".....we have two mini guns and no 40mm GL....so now I wait for "The Marine" to reply.......:)

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

The "Hog" was the M-3 system that carried 24 rockets to a side, it was misery to work with and I considered it dangerous. The "Frog" was the M-5 40mm system because that is what it looked like when it flew overhead.

I wrote the first lesson plan for the 540 rotorhead used on the UH-1C and the Cobra. I think I would like to see the minigun and 40mm that went under the nose of a UH-1E, Cobra yes, that was a nose armament option. 74-75 is long after my time in helicopters so anything could have happened.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

Not going to change that the game has to deal with all battle types and that is an AT unit. What I may do is change 892 to this as "UH-1C Mini-Gun"....on the list anyway.....that is a hell of a lot more useful than one unit that is a bit faster for 12 months

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

That has domino effects across all OOB's and weapons.....30 for the mini gun would be 3 HEK higher than the 30mm GAU-8.....31 is an 8 inch naval shell , 30 is a 150kg bomb

That said I have noted down to compare other weapons with WH 1 compare....WH size and HE kill work together but I need to tread lightly with things like this or risk a cascade of " if that ..what about this? "

We all want the weapons we fire to be as effective as possible but we have to keep things under control and balanced across all the OOBs.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...=Huey+armament This is the Armchair General thread although Photobucket has taken down the pictures.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

I put the article on another site - https://www.militaryimages.net/threa...t-part-1.4960/ I see that most of the pictures are still there.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

Consider that I have to keep track of all weapon systems in 93 OOB's.....( and keep them in harmony )

The UH-1E is not in the USA OOB, only the USMC OOB. We have the AH-1G Cobra in the US OOB with the mini gun and the 40mm.....we also have a limited number of slots left so putting in every conceivable combination is not practical. I have change 892 to represent the UH-1C Mini-Gun

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

Setting helo damage to 50% plus for retreat sounds good, 90% something important must have been hit by then?
Auto rotate is irelivant in game terms, its down so its still a kill. Could have a chance for crew survival but really little impact unless part of your core in a campaign.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

I apologize, I meant that I would like to see it in real life, not that I would like to see it in the game.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

One thing I did on all the UH-1 helicopters was to increase the crew from 2 to 4, no Huey during this time except medevacs flew without a crew chief and door gunner with M-60s. I increased survivability from 0 to 5, Hueys were extremely tough aircraft and more went down from mechanical failure or stupidity than enemy action. I think it should be more like an armored vehicle except that it lands, the crew might escape and it catches fire. Out of 65 pilots in a helicopter company, only 16 flew gunships, they were hand-picked from the best, most experienced and motivated crews in the unit. The same goes for the crew-chief and gunner. When you consider rally and suppression, consider rally potential for two officers and two NCO’s.

Unit 903, UH-1B ARA, could also be a UH-1C and could be renamed “UH-1B/C Hog.” Aerial Rocket Artillery was unique to the 1st Cav Division, however, one of these aircraft was on the TO&E of each gunship platoon in Assault Helicopter Companies, my first gunship was armed this way. The M3 system with 24 rockets to a side was fired in pairs for aircraft stability. These rockets were armed with the 10 pound warhead comparable to a 75 mm howitzer.

Unit 862 UH-1B Maxwell, the reason I would suggest getting rid of it is that it was a one- time deal, there never was a second one and because of the shortage of targets for the SS-11 anywhere but Europe, it was a waste of a good aircraft. Adding the UH-1C gunship makes sense because it was the most common gunship available from 1966 on. For the first and second weapon lines I used weapon 192, the 7.62 mini-gun, the M21 system. I searched through the weapons long and hard trying to find something that would duplicate the effect of a 3 second 600 round burst hitting a 50 meter hex and the closest thing I could come up with was a claymore mine, the mini-gun was even more devastating than that. My suggestion would be six shots with HE of 20 for each gun. Only C models carried the mini-gun, B models remained armed with the 4 m-60s, it was a wiring issue.

In Assault Helicopter Companies the gun platoon was made up of usually 1 Hog, two 40 mm ships and 5 gunships. Types of aircraft were not mixed, either all B or all C models.

Unit 281, I only saw the SS-11 weapon demonstrated and I thought it verged on suicide, a helicopter’s survivability depends largely on the fact that it is always moving, mostly because our gunships were always overloaded. In the game I love this aircraft, the pop up from behind hills feature is great, but there is a problem in real life; when it hovers to shoot, it can be tracked by a tank’s main gun, all other helicopters move too much. There is an advantage though, in real life a mini-gun ship firing at a tank would drive off the supporting infantry and cause the tank crew to button up. In a buttoned up condition, the tank can no longer use its AAMG and cannot know when a missile has been fired at it so evading is out of the question. A combination of a gunship (or a LOH with a mini-gun) and an SS-11 ship would be a realistic tank hunter-killer team.The SS-11 remained important until the TOW came along.

Unit 894 UH-1C Heavy Hog and Unit 892 UH-1M Heavy Hog – let’s rethink this one. In mid 1968 the T-53-L-13 engine began replacing the T-53-L-11 engine that had been the mainstay. The L-13 engine equipped the UH-1H making it the most powerful single engine helicopter in the world. B and C models that had been stateside for rebuild began to reappear with the L-13 and were designated UH-1M. This engine would also power the Cobra. With the appearance of the M models, the M157 and M158 7 shot rocket pods standard on all gunships but the Hog were replaced with the M159 19 shot pods. This effectively made the Hogs obsolete and they were rearmed as gunships. You can create units for the UH-1M representing the upgraded power in 40 mm ships and mini-gun ships with the 19 shot pods. At this same time new rockets with 17 pound warheads were introduced, these had the same HE punch as a 105. The new rockets also had several fuse and warhead options but I am not sure these options would improve game play. Imagine a UH-1M 40 mm or mini-gunship with 2-19 shot pods carrying 17 pound rockets. Awesome. Sometimes we would add two more door gunners just for grins.

It might be possible to get by with fewer Cobra variants. The AH-1G Cobras when they first came out were armed all the same. The chin turret with an M134 mini-gun with 4,000 rounds and a 40 mm gl with 300 rounds was standard, although any combination of the two weapons was possible. Four M159 19 shot rocket pods were standard on the stub wings although there was one variant available that should be considered, the M195 20 mm cannon mounted on the inboard port pylon with a fixed sight. There were 950 rounds for this gun in faired boxes attached to the fuselage. Most of the other Cobra variants involved something other than major weapon options. The ARA units were re-established with Cobras but remained distinct in name only.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

When I have more time I will reply in more detail but changing units from one thing to another has the potential impact and an unknown number of scenarios. Removing and/or radically changing units is not a trivial exercise.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

Great stuff for this era. However, to minimize adverse impact on the game/scenarios, put this post in a sticky to benefit scenario designers and those wanting to edit existing scenarios, as many of the changes advocated may not sigificantly affect game play.

Scenario authors can edit units and formations as well, that is one beauty of the game - flexibility.
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Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

Sorry it's taken so long to respond.

I suspect there's some confusion between the "Cobra" and "Huey" here. As far as I know no Huey ever had a chin turret, but the initial AH-1G did sport a chin turret mounting both a 7.62 mini gun and a 40mm GL.

As to mounting mini guns on Hueys ... moreso then the US Army the USMC tends to use whatever is handy (or someone can "borrow") when arming vehicles and helos rather then an official armaments set-up. You see that with folks putting 30-cals on observation helos during Korea, rocket pods on UH-34's, strapping 106mm recoilesses under the wings of OV-10's, etc.

So the initial UH-1E gunship (Unit# 117 65-67) mounts a pair of M60 door guns and a pair of 7-shot rocket pods. The later UH-IE+ (Unit# 884 67-71) changes the door guns for miniguns. Was this always the case? Of course not. But I'm sure they'd do so whenever possible, and for the sake of the game I did it that way.

Re: Helicopter inaccuracies
 

The problem here Don is no Helos use the Survivability slot in the game. You need to read the MOBHack guide.......Survivability has "No use for Helos or Aircraft" so making it 5 does nothing whatsoever

Aircraft and Helo sets Durability from the Steel Hull Front Armour slot and any real armour they may have is set from the Steel Hull side Armour slot as detailed in the MOBHack users guide