Snowdrifts
 

I noticed that the game does not warn when driving a wheeled vehicle to a hex with Snowdrifts in the same way it does with rough hexes (or rough slopes at least).

I think this would be a nice addition to make it warn against Snowdrifts in the same way. This would save many vehicle from immobilization as the snowdrifts are even harder to spot than rough terrain.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

I can tell you from personal experience that on cloudy days (no direct sun) snowdrifts can be practically invisible in real life. A white drift against a white background throws no shadow in that situation. Infantry will walk right into them and also step into snow filled depressions that looks like a flat white snow field. Tanks moving off road will plow into them and also sink while driving over frozen ponds. I find the game perfectly realistic in this regard.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

Having grown up in South Dakota and Minnesota I like to think I have a "little" experience with snow.

As jp10 said, drifts can be near invisible anyplace but perfectly flat terrain, and sometimes even then. Being a Canuk I think DRG can back me up on this. The light snowfalls most folks (if they live in places where it snows at all) are use to are like saying since you've seen a mild thunderstorm so you know what a hurricane/typhoon is like. Two entirely different beasts.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

I am happy as it is, snowdrifts are not hard to spot except maybe under trees but just zoom in or hover your mouse they follow a pattern.
On drifts in real life winter sun can make seeing them difficult and judging the scale hard but not to the extent you drive into them if your talking pilled drifts.
Dangerous ones are open terrain, open ground you know there’s a road goes up to that tree but you also know there’s a 4’ ditch runs beside it and the winds filled it all in, time to admit the weathers won and go home.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

Even more fun is "black ice".

I once took out 20m of barbed wire fence and did a number on my car when I hit a patch. No indications at all, no snow nearby, I'd been driving a couple hours so had no clue what the temperature was, just cruising down the road on a sunny afternoon one moment and spinning off into the ditch the next.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

The issue here is the gaming experience. You can spot the drifts if you look yourself but you would not want to share your focus in it because your mind is in other more important and fun aspects of the game.

The added feature for rough hexes is a really good feature that adds to the gameplay value. You can spot the hexes from the map if you look, but you usually do not have the mind to do so and in some cases they are hidden under the trees.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

For winter scenarios the importance of maintaining vehicle mobility (including tanks) is magnified. Which is why any off-road movement should be carefully plotted in advance.

Winter assaults are especially challenging since roads are usually heavily mined, often with obstacles. Rather than simply waiting for them to be cleared it can be useful to find alternate paths to the objectives.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

Yep, half the "fun" of winter warfare is restricted mobility. The other half is keep your troops alive and fit for battle.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

I personally like many of the convenient features added in the game. In my opinion they add a lot to the gameplay.

But i suppose this one would be too much as this seems to create surprising amount of opposition.

It is always possible to make a house rule that forbids snow maps entirely as this problem only occurs on them.

I would add a map file in here of the map we have been playing. Otherwise i like the map a lot, but there are a lot of single snowdrift hexes that make the movement on the map really taxing, as it might take more than 15-20 minutes extra in every turns just to move vehicles one hex at the time. This is extremely frustrating when there are lots of vehicles on the map.

Last game this feature would have saved a lot from the gameplay experience as my opponents advance was halted by a sudden snowdrifts he did not spot and in this game i have had at least one unit immobiled by snowdrifts in every single turn.

This is even more frustrating because this forces you to move all your vehicles by one hex at a time and always check their surroundings compred to a gameplay where you would just move them normally and the game would ask about entering them. Do this 40-50 times in a turn and you might see why i am suggesting this. It would still be an option to click yes if you did not spot the drifts, if that is the feeling the player wants but -> it would give the opponent the possibility to click no, which seems to take away from some of the player's gameplay.

One option would be to edit the map of course, and take those away, but they add to gameplay also being there and it kind of is part of the map.

How can i add a map file here ?

I could share the map. Seems strange that the file type is not supported by this forum. (There is another thing i suggest to change, to be able to share maps in here so everyone could enjoy them.)

Seems a .zip file is supported. I will add the map as a .zip file and i am curious what other people think about this map.

We have been playing it so that the victory hexes are positioned in the middle of the map and there are clearly 4 "areas" to form 4 different fronts. The upper part of the map, the "lake city" part of the map, "the road" part of the map which is concidered to be the main target and the lower part of the map and in the lower part there is the canyon.

This map have some legendary value in our games as it is an old custom made map by my opponent and we have played many games in this map. It was originally designed to happen in Finland, where we live. We usually play Finland vs Russia or Finland vs Sweden as a fictional battle. The ongoing game is between Germany and Russia and it is the first Ww2 game in that map as we want to see how it works out in Ww2. The map have been designed to be played with MBT.

That map is an extremely tricky one and in my opinion, the most complex map i have ever played in Steel Panthers.

For some reason i get more easily frustrated about these kind of things, in the past it seemed not to matter that much and for some reason, not to happen so often. Probably because our games were more straightforward as we mostly ride the roads and nowdays try to sneak on the opponent.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

And you could then add on all the other sticking terrain like mud, trenches, streams, fords, swamps, sand dunes etc.

Not going to happen, the rough slopes and buildings are all that will be added since these (especially rough slopes) were the main complaint.

You can always turn breakdowns off in preferences, and then the problem goes away.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

Does the breakdowns only occur to immobilization on the map ?

I could probably use that feature in that map. But that would also take away from the gameplay value. Guess we just have to move on to the green fields, the graphics are more nice in them also.

I would really appreciate those other features you mentioned too. I play this game so that my focus is on the strategy and i like to move my units fast.

So playing that map stays frustrating as it is in the further patches also.

This is another thing we have agreed on, to play the older versions of the game as i think they are better than the newer ones. There have been more that have gone wrong than right in the last two or three patches.

The main (or the sole reason for this) issue is the armoured planes and helicopters. How they work was changed 2 or 3 pacthes ago, and the best version for them is in the older patches. It was changed (for some reason) that they always count HE penetration as 1. In the older versions HE penetration of 55 is counted as 55 as it should be. This have been reported, discussed and confirmed.

There is nothing that have been added, that outweights this.

The one thing i miss most in the newer patches is the "Load Cost" feature and that it warns from rough hexes (which is big help).

We are currently playing Ww2, so the best patch for that is the newest ones. The armoured planes / helicopters issue occur mostly on MBT, where helicopters is one of most fun unit types but they are clearly too powerful if weapon platforms like KUB / KRUG / OSA seem not to damage them.

I have been given an advice that the helicopters should be shot with tanks, but i have not yet had a single opportunity to ever shoot my opponents helicopter with a tank. He keeps them in cover, moves them to fire and goes back to cover. I have seen a Hind take 4-10 hits from AREA SAM type of missiles in the newest patches with no damage. When i see a video about those weapon platforms, they make me wonder that they could probably damage, or destroy a tank.

Am not actually sure have this been changed in the newest patch, as i have not played MBT since. But there is a lot i do not understand in here.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

Read the Game guide

How could removing an issue you are complaining about take away from the gameplay value any more than constant messages every time you encounter a snowdrift asking if you really want to enter it or not?
and what you are asking for would further slow the game play as every feature that could cause a breakdown would generate a game pause for you to decide if you really want to enter it or not.... This would not speed up game play nor would it add gameplay value to the majority of the players so the solution for you is turn breakdowns OFF


I have NO IDEA whatsoever what you are referring to here.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

To cover some points, rough slopes are normally dotted about and can be missed so warning is helpful.
Things like streams and snowdrifts are long and therefore you look at how they are laid out and plan accordingly. You said you like looking at the tactical side well that’s crucially important if you have vehicles
Streams snowdrifts mud and swamps play an important part in your tactics for the map so help is not needed you take them into account rarely. Rough slopes you plan if there’s a line of them but more often than not they can be driven round.

Planes have not changed to my knowledge they have always been an oddball regarding weapon stats read the guide on plane armament. Helicopter armament works the same as all other units

Re: Snowdrifts
 

About that helicopter / Air thing. It have been stated by DRG and / or Mobhack, i just reported it. As i see it and in my experience they have changed. I suppose the last version where they work like they used to is MBT version 11. From there on, the air units with armor value of 2 or more have become a lot more resilient against High Explosive missiles. This is quite problematic as these are the main weapon types they are countered with.

The newest odd thing i have found is that the FLAK units have armor piercing rounds that are there for ground targets and they neglect on using them against the air units, and do not shoot them at all if they are the only rounds they have left. In my opinion, engaging air targets is the sole reason why i take FLAK unit types. And the game designers seem to have an opinion, that they should not be used against air targets at all.

I am imagining a situation where the commander shouts mad at them to shoot the planes and the FLAK crew say back to their commander that no they wont, because they are saving the rounds against ground targets.

Those other things does not clearly matter, so no need to talk about them.

If someone tests the map, please give me a feedback on it.

I also post another map, but it is not game ready and probably not a map to do battle at all. It is an artistic and absurd as it is but i have created it for fun and to test the map editor program. In this map you can see all the terrain features clearly, even when the map is zoomed out. In the previous map you can not, even when the map is zoomed in. This is mainly the issue for me, and why i asked about the snowdrifts in the first place. The summer maps are clearly superior to the snow maps in terms of gameplay.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

Black ice is seriously not fun. A long time ago I was a motorcycle courier. I came to a patch of road shaded by trees just before a compulsory stop on an intersection. Black ice! I froze in terror and sailed right through the intersection. Luckily for me nothing coming. If I had braked or steered I would have been toast.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

Okay misunderstood thought you were talking about their weapons not their armour.
Yes there is a problem with armoured air you seem to need warhead size 6 minimum to cause damage.
Versus a heavy armoured helo (4) probably warhead 10 plus.
Armour 4 baring a lucky hit is immune to all MANPADs and virtually all None Area Sams like the Patriot
Warhead size seems more important than HE
15 HE 10W probably the minimum to cause a couple of points of damage won’t kill it.
70 HE 20W overkill normally 30-200+ damage from my observations.

Do a test turn experience off and set to 60-100 helo-Sam side. Edit EW to zero for helos to improve hit chances. Possibly increase hitting never tried that.

Regarding AA guns firing AP rounds at air targets have you never watched a war movie with Flak?
You fire HE at air and hope it gets hit by the blast because your chances of actually hitting the plane are remote.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

Shooting any rounds against air targets is better than shooting none and having some when the purpose is being an anti air unit.

This is common sense.

In ww2 armoured planes are available only at the end of the war, thus needing some adjustments in the anti air measures: to use specific and effective anti armor rounds against them.

As a steel panther commander and given the possibility, i would order my units to do so.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

And that is exactly the type of info we need to work from if / when we do any further code work

Re: Snowdrifts
 

I've managed to damage Hinds (armor 2? weren't they 4 pre 2019?) with Stingers (warhead 4) BUT even when you hit it's only like 1 in 4 that causes damage, the rest bounce off.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

The German 8.8 cm/88mm Flak 18/36/37/41/43 series was probably the best all around anti-aircraft/anti-tank and artillery weapon of WWII and a bit beyond.

So what kills planes, jets and UAV's? Shrapnel. You have to keep things in context here, we play a game based on a 50 meter hex or if you will 54.7 yards or again 164 feet (Slightly rounded off.) side to side.

And inside of this you have one of the above craft jinxing etc. to as they said when taking out the "Death Star" "Stay on Target, Stay on Target" Well good luck with your AP round hitting your target.

The A-10, HIND , APACHE and on and on again are armored to protect the pilots and vital areas of the aircraft from shrapnel causing damage to fuel, electrical and hydraulic systems. By definition this includes the airframe and aerial surfaces to some extent as well.

HE shrapnel will shred an engine which is why SAM's work the way they do (See Ref. below) or even AA. But there's more to it then that so here's another Ref both from well respected "Think Tanks"...
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...-warthog-52677

How to kill a plane and well, avoid being killed.
http://ausairpower.net/TE-Evading-Missiles.html

In artillery and I could careless of what type we're talking about, "Proximity" is what kills something. Shrapnel, Percussion (Shock Wave) that'll liquefy your internal organs and the occasional and lucky direct hit depending on your point of view.

And now I start to digress, so back to the top most artillery pieces have proved themselves with or without some modification to be very effective in a multi roles as AA, Artillery and Anti-Tank roles such as the Pak-88.

If you were to tell me a modern day SPA unit couldn't (And don't kid yourselves on the following that they can't.) take out a modern tank in direct fire or using their FCS to target a tank, well you'd be wrong.

But the Pak 88 wasn't FCS assisted compared to systems of today or earlier "yesterday" but, it has proven itself to be one of the most effective Anti-Tank guns made in its time and a bit beyond. That should cover the AP round issue to some extent.

And there is the case of the French M3 AA Quad 50's (3 I believe.) at DIEN BIEN PHU ask the VIET-MINH how they felt about them. REALLY didn't like them too much.

Did I talk about measurements!?! I know, I know, but that is a game reality now isn't it!?! There is one last measurement that applies here as well and that is Time, Speed and Distance a lot of math seems to go into these things now don't they!?! Or as we would apply in Submarine Navigation sometimes you just need a little "PFM", which could mean many things to many people! ;) :D :doh:

Good Something to you all, for me this weekend is a little about reflection and remembering.

The 2 or 3 Threads on CM Artillery etc. will provide a much better understanding of the issues thus far discussed in this area.

I almost forgot, this Thread was about "Snowdrifts". Well lets just say this about that, snowdrifts up to 30,000ft or higher would not, I repeat not, be good for any type of aircraft manned or unmanned!! However it would relieve of the need for any another anti-air systems. So there you have "Snowdrifts" are EFFECTIVE against any weapons well especially up to or higher then 30,000ft. Just a thought.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Snowdrifts
 

Acronym Definition
PFM Public Financial Management
PFM Planning and Financial Management (budgeting)
PFM Porcelain Fused to Metal
PFM Portfolio Management
PFM Pulse Frequency Modulation
PFM Pacific Fast Mail (model railroads; Seattle, WA)
PFM Premiata Forneria Marconi (band)
PFM Plan For Maintenance
PFM Pray for Me
PFM Personal Finance Manager
PFM Program Financial Management
PFM Postscript Font Metrics
PFM Process Facility Modification
PFM Personal File Manager
PFM Please Forgive Me
PFM Produkte für Die Medizin AG (medical equipment producer, Cologne, Germany)
PFM Prison Fellowship Ministries
PFM Printer Font Metrics
PFM Picture Framing Magazine
PFM Pulsed Force Mode
PFM Provident Fund Management (software)
PFM Pension Funds Management (various locations)
PFM Portal Farmaceutyczno-Medyczny (Polish: Pharmaceutical and Medical Portal)
PFM Pelvic Floor Muscle
PFM Pipe Facing Machine (various companies)
PFM Proto-Flight Model (NASA satellite model)
PFM Professional Flight Management
PFM Process Flow Model
PFM Pink Floyd Meddle (album)
PFM Pitchfork Media (online music review)
PFM Peyton Freaking Manning (football player)
PFM Pre-Flight Message
PFM Pen for Men (Sheaffer fountain pen)
PFM Parietal Foramina
PFM Pink Fish Media (music forum)
PFM Project Formulation Manager
PFM Porsche Flug Motor (automobiles)
PFM Progressive Future Music (band)
PFM Participatory Forestry Management
PFM Premises Facilities Management
PFM Pure Freaking Magic (polite form)
PFM Proximity Fragmentation Mine (Turok 2 game)
PFM Power Factor Module
PFM Packet Forwarding Module
PFM Port Filtering Mode
PFM Precision Flight Mode
PFM Personnel Files Maintenance
PFM Parts Forecasting Model
PFM Philippine Faith Mission (Zambales, Philippines)
PFM Prospective Faculty Member
PFM Probabilistic Forecast Model
PFM Potential Fresh Meat (roller derby)
PFM Polyurethane Fiberglass Mat
PFM Prefaulted Module
PFM Postal Finance Marts (India)
PFM Process Facilities Modification
PFM Pro-Active Fault Management
PFM Proxy Formation Model (paleoclimate research)
PFM Preventive Fleet Maintenance (Indianapolis, IN)


:D

Re: Snowdrifts
 

That’s inline with what I have noticed hence stated warhead size 6 for a reasonable chance to do damage probably higher to always damage.
If I get a chance will do a test be nice to find the where a SAM has a high probability of a kill vs 2 armour but a low one vs 4 armour if poss.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

John,
You might have this info already, but if not, it might be useful to have some warhead info, in this case for the Stinger. :dk:
http://www.military-today.com/missiles/stinger.htm

And Don, thank you for that very informative post. I think he figured out what "PFM" really is. ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Snowdrifts
 

.......just pointing out there are quite a number to choose from

Re: Snowdrifts
 

Don't worry, I knew you were having your fun and "running with the ball". I got kick out of it and it put a much needed smile on my face!! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Snowdrifts
 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QSEX-c...ature=youtu.be

This thread has gone off target but it seems attack helos need a carry capacity, kidding.

Re: Snowdrifts
 

Necessity is the mother of invention.