How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

When an unsuppressed infantry squad with many action points attacks an AFV in an adjacent hex, it makes an assault. Whereas my assaults against AFV's fail so often, I should rather prefer a regular attack with all the weapons, but how do I tell my squad not to assault?

Where is the assault mechanics described in the guide?

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

Fire just one weapon (the PIAT say) by using the W key.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

That's an option, but I might want to fire all for suppression.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

Tough - best option if have the movement points is fire the AT weapon with the W key then assault it.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

Infantry assaulting tanks is usually the best way to kill tanks up close, better if in woods, better if you are hidden and surprise and better yet is when they veteran or higher experienced levels. Morale of the story don’t drive tanks near good hidden or experienced infantry with or without AT weapons.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

When playing as the Germans my infantry is usually 7 out of 10 (give or take 2). As the British or US at least 4 or 5 out of 10. You have to sneak up on the tanks or let them run into you.

Combined Arms is much better however, with mutually supporting arms.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

Assaulting can be an issue if all you have is a grenade, they could even suffer tank panic.
Just saying I like doing it the above way as you get 2 attempts, hopefully the AT weapon hit in which case it will be suppressed.
Must admit I love sneaking up on a tank from the rear, hard to pull off and only worth risking if you have support.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

How do I know if it's going to assault or simply to fire?
Fire AT and then assault. You must have been stationary to do that? Will it make any difference or take more action points if I fire all the weapons instead of AT only before assaulting?
What do these numbers mean?

Anyway, the subject of this thread is not infantry tactics but the WinSPWW2 engine, which allows very fine control such as reaction filtering and selection of individual weapons but fails to the let the user decide whether a squad is to assault or to fire. Would not a separate command for assaulting be helpful?

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

If you don’t want to assault use the ‘w’ key, assaulting with experienced infantry is usually superior to not assaulting tanks.

The numbers such as 6 out 10 times is I can immobilize or kill a tank with infantry assault. They are deadly if used properly.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

If it’s not got enough MP or is pinned it’s going to fire.

Of course stationary, stationary has a much higher success rate if possible you ambush rather than move to assault. That said once one assault has started I will hit him with everyone that can.

Will it make any difference etc - yes it will probably assault if possible as already stated.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

Imp, how many MPs exactly must a unit have in order to assault?

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

More often than not, you'll want to assault for better payoff in destroying the tank. So I don't really find a special key just to fire off all your weapons as very useful.

I think at least 3 points remaining to assault? With higher probability of success depending on higher movement points available.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

I think it would be useful in situations where an assault is too risky, such as low experience or spent MPs.
Hmmm. I didn't find it in the documentation (Game Guide). Did you establish this from experience?

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

We put out the changes on each release in the "Release History" section of the Game Guide.

This section really should be perused for any changes to the game mechanism, new rules etc.

Under:
WinSPWW2 version 6.0 Upgrade patch

go down the bullet points till you get to:
The relevant part of the quote is highlighted in red.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

So the conclusion of the majority of posters in the thread is that a separate command for assault is largely useless because assault is presumably (almost) always preferable.

Thank you for the reference, Mobhack. The need to read the change log to learn about the current rules of the game is, however, rather inconvenient. Would you consider describing assaults in a more appropriate section of the manual, where you could provide all the relevant information in a single place:

1. that a squad of infantry can effect a close assault against an AFV located in the same or adjacent hex,
2. that the assaulter must have at least two spare movement points and be unsuppressed (with a ready status?).
3. that an assault is automatically performed instead of a normal fire attack whenever the conditions above are satisfied (if I did not miss anything).
4. that an assault is more efficient than a normal attack but also more risky, for in case of failure the assaulting unit may suffer serious casualties and suppression.
5. that, as with normal fire, the success of an assault is decreased in proportion to the squad's current speed.
6. that if an assault is undesired, the player is advised to fire a selected weapon—AT if available—using the W command, until enough movement points are spent to make an assault impossible.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

The change log is the only sensible way to document changes.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

Whereas the change log is helpful for a user that has just upgraded and wonders what has changed, it is colossally inconvenient for a new user interested in learning the current version of the program rather than the history of its evolution from version 1.0. For an example, when learning Photoshop 7.0, I am not forced to read the change logs of 1.0 to 2.0, 2.0 to 3.0 &c up to 7.0 in order cumulatively to understand the functionality of 7.0. When learning LaTeX, I am not required to read the change logs starting from the original 1983 release.

The change log cannot replace good documentation describing the current state of the program.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

Let me put it this way......if I had to integrate every change made from every patch into the main body of the Game guide as well as the patch change log ( for TWO GAMES )two things would have happened about a decade ago........ we would have made far fewer changes and more likely stopped upgrading the game yearly ( or more likely stopped altogether )so if you think it's "colossally inconvenient" to read the release notes for every release to keep up-to date with the changes that pales in comparison to having to essentially re-write the game guide every release all the while knowing most people don't even bother to read the damn thing anyway let alone the release notes but show up here and expect to be spoon fed the answers.......

.......and if that sound "harsh"....so be it. The game guide gives a good general overview and the release notes fill in the details and all we ask is people put in the effort to read it.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

The way the game documentation goes right now. It's pretty difficult for a new player to learn the game. He probably has to be quite experienced in Ctrl-F keywords to find the relevant sections.

However, I do think that for the existing player base, it's actually quite easy, as we just need to read up the changelog for any major points of interests.

At some point, it's good to better integrate the documentation, but that remains a time and space consideration.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

I have found the GG quite useful and it’s really not a stretch to ctlr F and the double check the release notes for all four guides.

The in game help for the editor is also valuable but the most useful learning comes from playing, experimenting and playing a lot.

One of the easiest games to learn but one that takes time to master. The beauty is in replay ability!

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

If keeping a nice and tidy manual is so serious a labor, why not let experienced players contribute small paragraphs, corrections, and other small and manageable changes that you would review, edit, and include into the manual?

For example, in this thread I have learned new things about assaults which might be included in a single place in the manual rather than distributed all over. MP's for an assault are specified in the change log, whereas the definition of it is simply missing. In the natural order of narration, you first define a thing and then describe it.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

Like Wikipedia and their reputation for accuracy? Two names,one old and one current, ChuckForth and Kiwikikwik. Good intentions I am sure they always intended/intend but I would expect rarely "small paragraphs, corrections, and other small and manageable changes" would be added by many. A 24/7 mod would be needed to keep up with it.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

The reference to Wikipedia is irrelevant because the amount of its users exceeds those of WinSPWW2 by a factor of millions. We shan't have anthing like the Wikipedia traffic.Haven't heard about them.
I disagree. There are not so many users that care about pointing flaws in the manual, let alone those who are willing to put in effort in proposing revisions and corrections. There will be very few you will find the time and motivation to write even several coherent and well-pondered paragraphs accurately representing the behavior of the game.

Whenever anything comes up on the forum to which RTFM is not an aswer (or not a good answer), it is a case for correction of the manual. It is, after all, intended for the inexperienced users.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

There is a half decent chance that at some point in the next 12 months there may be another update to both games......maybe.

The chance I will re-write or supervise a re-write of the game manual is zero if for no other reason than no matter how it gets re-written the chance that re-write will make everyone "happy" is slim to none. The info is there. Lot's of people have figured out how to find what they need and the format we have used is not going to change and if you think you can organize a player mod that can make it better then be my guest and when it's done you can post it to the Mods forum for all to admire..or criticize as the case may be.

Don

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

Be thankful this game has an extensive game manual which covers how everything works. I have had enough of modern games which come with a supposed manual, it’s normally full of pictures and a backstory with a couple of pages dedicated to how things actually work. Game industry is pants now all graphics and sequels dumb down the gameplay rather than improve it WTF we must be getting thicker. Buck the trend by games made by small independent I have noticed I now have more games by them than the big houses.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

What it needs is a second person to write the manual. I've just done this for War in the East and it suffered from exactly the same problem. When I say 'just done it', it's not finished yet and I've been working on since Sept last year but what's left is minor stuff like a decent index. It did require more than me, I just wrote the stuff but as it progressed and was made available on the forum other's chipped in with correction and stuff I did not know.

If you take the whole thing where I've been at it on average 4 hours a day for 5-6 days a week you can see how big the job is. I can see why DRG is more than reluctant to take it on but there again it is only that big because the changes were never intergrated properly in the first place. That is not DRG fault but the original companies.

Decent manuals and updating them is a common failing on the part of the industry in general. No point having a good product if you don't know how it works.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

A fantastic idea Chris!

Perhaps you could collect all of these additional connections, which the player does not immediately reveal, and get it closer to us new players? Maybe through one or more self-created scenarios? Or maybe an extensive and illustrated after action report?

A whole series of youtube videos would be wonderful. If the account in question had enough followers, it would also have the advantage of increasing the level of awareness of the game. :up:

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

I did consider doing more illustrated AARs. But the forum can only accept a very small size of jpg uploads. So it makes it very difficult to show up the scale. I'm interested in the Bn level of operations so my playing map is usually 80~100(H) x 120~160(L).

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

You could realize it as a PDF file then? An uploaded PDF is allowed to be bigger. That would also have the advantage, that your viewers could consider it independent of this forum or without having to be online. It would not distract them so much from what you provide?

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

Use Imgur. Upload to Imgur then link to the post at Shrapnel

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

I am "reluctant" because *I* don't see the need because no matter how you re-organize it SOMEONE will still think it should be organized differently. There is no book or manual on the planet that someone doesn't think could have been done a better way.

Think about what you need to know and use Ctrl+F and do a search. That is EXACTLY how we get those quotes from the manual that we post here when someone complains they can't find the info they are looking for. Do you honestly think we've committed every detail to memory?

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

Beg your pardon for missing this remark, but what experience of the infantry, what speed, full MPs or not, did the tanks run into you or you came to the tanks?

In my recent game all assaults from exp 70 infantry failed. Most of the time, it had moved one hex of had been stationary before assaulting. I think you need more experience for assaulting.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

Assaults do fail regularly especially early war when tank panic is also more common.
It’s a last ditch attempt if they have not got an AT weapon capable of destroying the target.
Better AT weapon probably helps if all you have is a grenade good luck.
Lots of factors difference between experience probably a factor suppressing the target definitely is.
If your going to assault should do it multiple times or in combination with other arms with the hopes of at least getting retreat status and killing next turn or the crew bailing out.

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

What does improving the manual has to do with game modding? Do you suggest that I publish a modified manual as a game mod?

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

If you feel you can produce a better game guide with multiple player input then do so and post it in the Mods section which is where any player modification of the game is posted and that would include game guides

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

My consent to the posting from Don should not be against you Anton.

So that I do not make too many mistakes as a freshman, I have now and then collected various postings. There are things in there like for example: "It is hexes moved, turns, dismounting or firing that attract opportunity fires." These are just snapshots of the screen that should help me. That's what they look like:

Attachment 15769

Attached are all the ones I have made. :)

Now let's not ask an old man with heart defect to do all the work ... Anyway Anton, I hope there is something useful in it. :up:

Re: How to prevent a unit from assaulting?
 

This thread has strayed far beyond the original thread topic. We told everyone on both forums when the patches were released that after 21 years doing this we were going to take a break from it and hopefully recharge a bit but for some mysterious reason that seems to have only encouraged players to find ways to make more work for us and I just got a PM with another suggestion for even more work so the concept that we are "taking a break" seems to be lost on some players

I have already said I think the GG is as complete as it's going to get and others have said much the same. I have also said no written work will ever be judged perfect as everyone has different ways of processing and finding information not to mention that for many players of this game English is not their day to day language

I have suggested if anyone wants to try a re-write of the game guide they are free so do so and post it as a mod and who knows if it is universally acclaimed as an instructional manual work of art we may even use it as the official document....maybe but given *I* have already done most of the work anyway and the suggestions revolved around re-ordering the info that is there I am going to close this thread and anyone interested in a "SP Manual Re-write" project can start up a new thread on the mods forum.