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- - Hue city (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=52361)

Has anyone made a campaign of the battle for Hue in January February 1968? I know there is a map, it is number 355.

I'm working on it when I have the time and an in the mood.

It'll require several scenarios and the only "Core" unit will be the HQ. My problem is getting information on the NVA and VC units involved: composition, weaponry, what sections of the city (or outside it) they were in and when.

If you have a reliable source I'd be overjoyed if you'd let me know how to find it.

All I have ever seen was a reference to several either Bns or regiments being in Hue. I forget where I saw it and it was in passing as I looked for something else. It may have been a wiki link to conflicts the US had.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hu%E1%BA%BF

This lists the 7 known Regiments of VC involved in the battle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_C..._and_structure

the basic structure of Units is listed in this.

Trouble is this is all general information and WinSPMBT is a tactical game.

Sure, everyone has an AK or SKS but how many RPGs and LMGs? Any MMGs? Mortars? I assume no actual artillery. Were these regiments at full strength or were some of their battalions/companies operating elsewhere and weren't at Hue? I know the NVA were getting resupply and replacements from outside the city, till when?

Yes I can just make up this stuff but I'd rather attempt (as best I can) to create a campaign that reflects what really happened rather then go all Hollywood/video game. Because you can do that already by simply generating a city battle with WinSPMNT.

From my link the resupply lasted until about a week before the end fight. I believe that is when the 3 Allied commands had a unified command.

As for units doesn't the game have company and support stuff? Just remember the NVA and VC did everything in 3's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 846743)

Yes I can just make up this stuff but I'd rather attempt (as best I can) to create a campaign that reflects what really happened rather then go all Hollywood/video game. Because you can do that already by simply generating a city battle with WinSPMNT.

Sorry I would have to disagree with your here. The tools that WinSPMBT and SPWW2 provide are just about as accurate TO/E's for tactical units from 1930-2025 that you can find out there. Using these tools a good scenario and campaign designer can create (or recreate) any historical battle. Doing research will help you modify the existing and awesome TO/E's for MBT/WW2 into what you need or feel you need to do.

If you need some help or ideas on how this can be achieved you can use the editor in SPWW2 and look at any one of the (near) 300 scenarios I have created. I have also created 7 CG for SPWW2. They are not perfect but using the tools that WW2 has provided and the research I have done and the venhola tool they are good representation of historical scenarios and campaign games.

For example in the last batch I created (scenarios 775-807 running from 1908-1929) I had to use the research materials I had and also via look up on the net and using Mobhack, Scenhack and modifying the units in the game so that I could model what I was trying to achieve. For example since a lot of those scenarios were set around 1919-1922, the Red OOB for example would have a squad with a LMG, what I would do is to change that to a rifle for example, or Molotov, or nothing. That way I don't have to create some new OOB and have the user swap that out to play my scenario (not that anything is wrong with that but I am not into creating brand new OOBs, I am happy with what The Camo has given to us). Or I'd add to existing companies extra units at the HQ or platoon level to create new formations without having to use Mobhack and making them from scratch that a player would have to swap in and out.

So my disagreement with you is that SPWW2/MBT does provide you with pretty accurate and detailed TO/E's for squad, company and even battalion and regimental level actions. I do agree that doing the research does take time but I also don't think any scenario designer will ever create a scenario or campaign with 100% accuracy and even if they did the players would screw it up with the very first movement of any units, lol.

I am in the process of using those skills and applying them to SPMBT this year.

I do hope the content of my disagreement is clear and I hope to see your CG in the future and play it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 846743)

You will NEVER know most of that so you have to guess and estimate then playtest to see if you have a mix that approximates reality and gives a good game but you will never get this done if you are expecting to know individual unit composition....and "how many RPGs and LMGs" Gimme a break..... I doubt the NV even knew that then !

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 846746)

You will NEVER know most of that <clip>

True!

But what concerns me is that with the news footage I've watched from the actual events I've seen essentially zero indication that the NVA had RPGs, mortars, AT-guns, or even HMGs (12/14mm). The apparent lack of such rather significantly changes the dynamics of battle. We've all seen the footage of an Ontos merrily blasting the NVA out of their positions with nothing but small arms in reply, this makes for a rather boring and one-sided scenario.

My attempts to replicate the ambush of USMC Co A's arrival on trucks via Highway 1 have led to a slaughter because of the way WinSPMBT deals with troops mounted in vehicles. I'm currently thinking of increasing the "Survivability" rating of the trucks to deal with this.

Admittedly all these "issues" exist primarily in my own head, but hey, we are what we are :D

Here is some more info that may help.

I just found this, it's general but it gives an excellent visual overview of the battle, and sheds some light on the combatants.

https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/HD...=1558615163718

The good old USMC digital library files has a wealth of info that you should be able to use:

https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/HD...-16-102102-263

There is some good nugets in this tome...look at pdf page 10. I think it has all the NVA info one would need to construct scenarios and a compaign from that.

Although allied intelligence reported elements of two North Vietnamese Army (NVA) regiments (4th and 6th Regiments), two sapper battalions, and an assortment of Viet Cong local forces in Thua Thien Province, there was little evidence of enemy activity in the Hue sector.

U.S. order of battle records listed the 6th NVA Headquarters with its 804th Battalion in the jungle-canopied Base Area 114, about 20–25 kilometers west of Hue. One battalion, the 806th, was supposed to be in the Street Without Joy area in Phong Dien District, 35 kilometers northeast of Hue.*

American intelligence officers believed the remaining battalion, the 802d, to be about 20 kilometers south of the city or with the regimental headquarters in Base Area 114. According to the best allied information, the 4th NVA Regiment was in the Phu Loc area near Route 1 between Phu Bai and Da Nang.

Unknown to the allies, both enemy regiments and support units were on the move toward Hue. Among the new arrivals was the 7th Battalion of the 29th Regiment, 325C Division, a unit that had come from laying siege to Khe Sanh.

THIS!

Also new to Thua Thien Province was the 5th Regiment, a three-battalion unit that normally operated from Base Area 101 near Quang Tri City. Other reinforcements included an artillery battalion armed with 122mm rockets, two sapper battalions, two 82mm mortar companies, two 75mm recoilless rifle companies, two 12.7mm heavy machine gun companies, and a special unit equipped with 50 rocket-propelled grenade launchers (RPG7, or B41) that had greater penetrating power than the older and more common RPG2 (B40) weapon. By the eve of Tet, the enemy had quietly assembled a strike force near Hue equivalent to at least 14 battalions.

So it seems to me that the NVA had much more firepower the you give then credit for based on a flim.

One more doc:

https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/HD...-23-084227-070

Have not read it only skimmed it. But personally I think the Death in an Imperial City PDF has everything you need.

https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/HD...-16-102102-263

Lastly on PDF page 180 is what looks to be very detailed accounting of the fight for Hue.

Again this is from a USMC book which IRC are similar to the US Army Green books.

https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/US...9000313800.pdf

EXCELLENT material!
These should be of tremendous assistance.

THANKS

P.S.

Don't expect this mini-campaign anytime soon. I'm currently "enjoying" radiation therapy for cancer so not up to anything as involved/intricate as this is going to be.