.com.unity Forums - Tannenberg Line

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- - Tannenberg Line (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=52444)

My "Social distancing" project

There are two RAR's
One is the scenario
One is the new graphic files with a slightly altered black "rebel" ID tag and V hex flag to expand it's use.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1590441208

The old one with the yellow outline has been replaced by the grey/ black one on the right. In this scenario, it is used to represent the non-German SS units that were involved.

This is not "political correctness" it's a way to allow scenario designers to differentiate the difference between the two. This will be the standard black flag when we release another patch upgrade......... eventually.

Extract the scenario to the games Scenarios folder and the Graphics to the Game Data/ Graphics folder

The scenario was designed to be played as P1 ( German ) but playtesting has shown it is playable from both sides

Quote:

Battle of Tannenberg Line*
*
DATE: 24 July to 12 August 1944*
*
BATTLE LOCATION: The Sinimaed Hills about 20 km west of Narva, Estonia*
*
BATTLE TYPE:*
Germany (Defend) vs Soviet Russia (Assault)*
*
HISTORICAL SITUATION:*
*
In the Sinimaed Hills, the III German Panzer Corps was Commanded by Waffen-SS Obergruppenfuhrer Felix Steiner. The German defences were made up of troops of many different European nationalities and included the 11th SS Division Nordland made up of Norwegians and Danes. Roughly half of the infantry consisted of local Estonian conscripts of the 20th Estonian SS Division who were highly motivated to resist the looming Soviet re-occupation. As well there were units of the 4th SS Brigade Nederland, made up of Dutch volunteers as well as the Flemish SS Battalion Langemarck and the Walloon SS Battalion Wallonien along with other support units.*
*
On the attacking Soviet side were the rifle corps and divisions subordinate to the Russian 2nd Shock Army commanded by Lt. Gen. Ivan Fedyuninsky and the 8th Army commanded by Lt. Gen. Filipp Starikov along with independent artillery, air and armoured vehicle units.*
*
The Soviet artillery and air forces began bombing the Sinimaed Hills on 25 July. The first Soviet infantry attacks on the hills were made on 26 July. The most intense battles took place between 27 and 30 July with the Sinimaed Hills passing from one side to the other many times.*
*
The Sinimaed Hills were a good defensive position to control the Narva-Tallinn road on the isthmus between the sea and the great bogs to the south. The first defensive structures at Sinimaed were built as early as during the Great Northern War (1700-1721). During World War II the German army built up powerful defensive positions in the Sinimaed Hills.*
*
This scenario compresses the battle to one event. To truly recreate this battle correctly it should be broken down into a mini-campaign but even that would be difficult. In the small area represented by this map the Germans commanded a force of just over. 22,000 men which held off an estimated 136,000 Soviet troops and the game simply cannot portray that accurately without breaking the battle down into a series of smaller events so this scenario is an attempt to recreate the general feel of the battle*
*
The historic outcome of this series of battles was a defeat for the Russians with casualties estimated at ten times the losses of the formations commanded by the Germans. The Red Army failed to seize Estonia at this time which granted tens of thousands of Estonians more time to flee to the West. Estonia was captured a month later from the south-east. As no successful breakthrough was made in the Sinimaed Hills, the Red Army was unable to establish control on the southern shore of the Gulf of Finland which delayed Finland's exit from the war until the beginning of September.*
*
Map and Scenario Creation by Don Goodbrand*

Re: Tannenberg Line

Had a quick look and it looks quite cool. I assume the map was made with venhola? Will probably give it a try over the weekend.

Re: Tannenberg Line

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ts4EVER (Post 847577)

Had a quick look and it looks quite cool. I assume the map was made with venhola? Will probably give it a try over the weekend.

Partly using Venhola and it was built in sections. Originally it was just the clear area that leads to the hills and the hills but even though that was the battle area it was too plain so the lower half below the RR which was/is dense forest and marsh is a cut-and-paste of a section of my Goldap map then modified. Later I added the Baltic shoreline and although it's not playable area it does put the narrowness of the operation area into sharper focus and the distance from the coast to the hills is correct

Re: Tannenberg Line

BTW, I dunno how accurate you want to make this, so feel free to ignore this, but in case you are interested...
I have the strength reports for the 11th Nordland Division from June 1944. They had 10 Stugs, 1 Panzer IV and 5 Panthers that were "ready for action". They also report 94 apcs and scout vehicles. All in all the infantry seems to have been organized as Panzergrenadiers, so that would probably be more correct than the SS Infanterie Units.
In terms of (non-MG) small arms:

https://i.imgur.com/ywnAtwF.jpg

Looks like there were no StG44s in the inventory at that time.

Re: Tannenberg Line

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ts4EVER (Post 847589)

BTW, I dunno how accurate you want to make this, so feel free to ignore this, but in case you are interested...
I have the strength reports for the 11th Nordland Division from June 1944. They had 10 Stugs, 1 Panzer IV and 5 Panthers that were "ready for action". They also report 94 apcs and scout vehicles. All in all the infantry seems to have been organized as Panzergrenadiers, so that would probably be more correct than the SS Infanterie Units.
In terms of (non-MG) small arms:

Looks like there were no StG44s in the inventory at that time.

If you go back and read the introduction you will see I did say historically recreating this as one event is impossible and what's there is an attempt to recreate the feel. and tossing in panthers and 94 APC's would mean having to give the Russians more to maintain the balance and they are only 90 units from the max and then you have a monster NOBODY wants to play. As for StG44s, you show the inventory of ONE of the units represented and one units inventory is one units inventory not every unit. Not every "German" unit in the game has one and there are plenty of units with 98ks but I did add a few here and there to again....balance the game. In reality, the Russians had at least 8:1 odds in manpower.

This battle was a meatgrinder not a battle of manoeuvre, thrust and parry and they may have had HT and some may have been used in this battle but I didn't find any info to indicate they did

However, if you feel you can do better feel free to use the map

Re: Tannenberg Line

I never said I "can do better". I think you sometimes read posts more hostile than they are. I just offered you this info I have in case you find it interesting and want to use it.

Re: Tannenberg Line

DRG we really aren't out to call you names or imply you did something wrong. Most of the time it is just info for info sake.

Re: Tannenberg Line

I said if you can do better ( or differently if that sounds better to you ) feel free to use the map..... It was YOU that read it as a hostile threat. I did not write it that way

If someone is inspired to turn that into the mini-campaign I think it should then go right ahead and IDK where in hell the "we really aren't out to call you names or imply you did something wrong" comes from but it's not from me. I did not see any name-calling. I pointed out one unit's inventory is one unit's inventory not them all and there aren't that many units in that scenario with STG44 anyway and it is a BIT nitpicky to focus on that

EDIT

There are a higher proportion of units on the flanks of the hills than in the centre that have the STG and I did that to give them a bit more hitting power as I didn't want to add more units. So yes, if you check those flank units you will see a higher number of STG's but not so much in the centre where the main battle is.

Re: Tannenberg Line

Did anyone play it ?

Re: Tannenberg Line

I started, but haven't had the time to finish it yet.

Re: Tannenberg Line

Only just started & will be a while 2 other games in progress.
Have to say happy with choice of STG's as I have found in my campaign MkIVs are hard to use in defence due to the weak turret. Pain in general to be honest because they need to avoid the high ground also.
STG,s are set up with ranged capability as they should survive a few hits & MkIVs are not so sensible setup in my book.

Re: Tannenberg Line

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 847593)

...and tossing in panthers and 94 APC's would mean having to give the Russians more to maintain the balance and they are only 90 units from the max and then you have a monster NOBODY wants to play.

I for one like to play monsters. :D

The games I set up for myself are usually max size maps, maxed out numbers of units...hehe...

But, I suspect the bulk of Nordland's APCs belonged to its armoured recce bn - which was detached from the division at the time set for the scenario (it was not even in Estonia when the Russian attack at the Blue Mountains kicked off).

The Swedish version of Willhelm Tieke's Tragödie um die Treue (Tragedy of the Faithful) claims that StG 44 began arriving for use by the III. SS Pz-Korps by late summer 1944 - and that it was in use in the field between July 44 and May 45 - (that could I guess mean a general sort of use not necessarily by Nordland units but it doesn't seem to be much of a stretch including them in the scenario IMHO).

Some use of SS Infanterie units certainly seems motivated given the concentration of infantry from the 20. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS that was present in the fighting...

Re: Tannenberg Line

Okay, gave this a run. WOW! Do the Russians EVER run out of armor??? The indirect fire by the Russians is very heavy and had me looking for spotters at times.

One oddity, the bottom edge of the map where the German line just stops, the AI tried to send some troops through the woods in that area, caught it but it was okay the AI actually tries things vs rushing across the board.

Overall a good scenario. And I learned to use the shelter bunkers pretty well.

Re: Tannenberg Line

[quote=wulfir;847856]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 847593)

The Swedish version of Willhelm Tieke's Tragödie um die Treue (Tragedy of the Faithful) claims that StG 44 began arriving for use by the III. SS Pz-Korps by late summer 1944 - and that it was in use in the field between July 44 and May 45 - (that could I guess mean a general sort of use not necessarily by Nordland units but it doesn't seem to be much of a stretch including them in the scenario IMHO).

That is true, but one thing I gleaned from looking at original strength reports is that SS divisions (or generally Panzer Divisions) did not have that many StG44s in general, compared to infantry divisions. As I posted earlier, the Nordland division certainly reported none in June 1944. The last report from them that I have is from March 1945, where they still only report 135 StG44, compared to 578 normal smgs. Also, according to the report, they were not supposed to have any StGs at all, the "Soll" (target number) column is empty.

Re: Tannenberg Line

Finnished the scenario. The weight of the Soviet attack is hard to beat off, most of my losses were to air and artillery. The second tank wave looks menacing when it approaches even though I did expect plenty of tanks, incl. IS heavies.

I was not able to regain the Kinderheimhöhe (Orphanage Hill) after losing it, also lost all AFVs but one damaged Pz IV, game played the full 56 turns. Ran out of ammo for some units, including some infantry sections that were not wiped out in the center...

The map is very good - compare it to the one in Campaign 007 Langemarck at Narva which deals with the same area. Hex 74,129 and 75,129 reads like wooden bridge(s) on my machine - which does not matter to the scenario of course...

Re: Tannenberg Line

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ts4EVER (Post 847868)

...from looking at original strength reports is...

Do the strength reports mention anything about rocket half-tracks?

Herbert Poller's unit history of SS-PzAA11 claims there were 4 SdKfz Wurfrahmen in it's 5. Kompanie - which would not have been present at the Blue Hills - but Tieke claims there was one battery of 8cm Vielfachwerfer, a Corps asset I guess.

Lexikon der Wehrmacht:

Quote:

Die „Tannenberg-Stellung“ im Kampfraum Narwa bezog die Batterie am 27.7.1944 und verließ sie am 17.9.1944.
Brennpunkt dieses Einsatzes war die „Grenadierhöhe“ bei Narwa...

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...S/VWBSS521.htm

Re: Tannenberg Line

Quote:

Originally Posted by wulfir (Post 847871)

Results sound reasonably historical given the time frame of the scenario compared to the actual span of days the battle lasted

https://travelblogeurope.com/1944-ba...rphanage-hill/
https://www.hobbyhistorica.com/the-w...nimaed-estonia

What was the final score?

Yeah, I was pleased with the map. I originally had not included the Baltic coast but it puts the location in perspective and the area below the RR was more or less impassible and I could have left that out but without the area above and below the main operation area it's just a flat map with some hills

Re: Tannenberg Line

Quote:

Originally Posted by wulfir (Post 847872)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ts4EVER (Post 847868)

...from looking at original strength reports is...

Not sure if I read the diagram right, but it shows 10,5cn and 15cm artillery as usual. That being said, there is another units with "attached to SS A11" with symbols I don't know. These are crossed out though.

Re: Tannenberg Line

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 847873)

What was the final score?

Marginal victory, 13 600 vs 2200 pts.

500 German losses, 2200 Soviet. The majority of AFVs on both sides knocked out or damaged (immobilized). Orphange Hill in Soviet hands, Grenadier Hill contested at game's end.

Re: Tannenberg Line

That result is about where I expected it to be with an experienced human player. In one AI vs AI playout the result was 10572 vs 2669 with losses 716 vs 1306

I am thinking of setting the German armour to be reinforcements. That will give the player a bit more variability

As an aside, I played that out three times AI vs AI and each time the German A0 moved to the front and always around this area and he was given a 98 " do not react"

https://i.imgur.com/84WHOwK.png

A " lead by example" commander ......

A quote from a book about the battle................"On the hills all vegetation was gone. The hills that only a few days ago had been covered in lush green forest looked more like two mounds of gravel, covered in shell holes"

Re: Tannenberg Line

Wait, you can let AI fight AI? :D

Re: Tannenberg Line

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 847878)

A " lead by example" commander ......

Haha! No doubt a product of the German Auftragstaktik philosophy... :)

Re: Tannenberg Line

The map used in the slot it will be released in