Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Some remarks on aircraft (which I researched lately) and other things, that are worth to look at. Only things, that caught my eye last years, without nitpicking through all the OOB.

------

11, 295 T-34/76 M1940 - not a big problem, but the photos show M1941, with high-placed barrel. Example photographs:
https://www.o5m6.de/redarmy/img/t-34early_03.jpg,
http://beutepanzer.ru/Beutepanzer/su...4_early_10.jpg

021, 651 T-35 M1939 - a picture shows early model - this one should have conical turrets. Example photographs:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8e/fc...ee965fd1f9.jpg,
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:T35_8.jpg


A bit more on SP guns:

32, 198 SU-76M [assault gun] 719 SU-76M [CS inf tank] - standard "M" variant was produced and used only from 7/43 (now 5/43). Date change demands correction in CS formations 369-371 (unit 719 - however, they were assigned to some infantry divisions only from mid-44).

According to Russian book on SU-76, a standard armament was also DT AAMG, which could fire through a hole in a front plate, or on AAMG mount.
Sabot ammo was introduced in 4/43 according to this book, so unit #32 could have it as well (mabe a smaller number, than #198).
A picture from a manual shows ammo load: 7 Sabot, 15 AP, 31 HE, 7 unspecified.

Turret sides were only 10mm inclined at 20deg, so it might be too thin for 2.
I wonder, whether turret rear should be armoured at all - it was low vertical wall, reaching below the gun's breach level. On the other hand, it should be dangerous for the crew, not the vehicle itself. I'm looking at German Marders and PzJgrs, and they are not consistent here - some have armour 0, like LaS 762, PzJgr 38(t) and Marder I 37L, while Marder II, Marder III H and III M have rear armour 1, with similar compartments open from the rear.
Only from post-war 1945 production SU-76M had high rear wall.


318 SU-76 [tank destroyer] - turret rear armour was inclined at 20deg, but it was only 10 mm (now: 2), turret sides were also 10 mm/25deg.

It is available here until 6/43. It could be doubled from 4 or 5/43 with sabot ammo (unless removed from 5/43 at all, with an advent of SU-152).
However, it is worth to double it as class 18 Assault gun, like SU-76M, available from 1/43 until 12/43 at least (they were produced until July).


SP gun formations:

SU-76/76M were a mainstay of SPG regiments, but were not directly assault guns, rather SP artillery firing indirectly, which could be used as CS vehicles.

As for SP-artillery formations (concerning 075 Assault Gun Co, 076 Assault Gun Pl, 154 Assault Gun Sec):

- before 1/43 they have only improvised SU-26, and there should be only small units (probably only sections).
- from 1/43 there were only 4 vehicles in platoons, in fact named "batteries" (batareya) in Russian. Higher level formation was a regiment with 25 or 21 guns in 6 or 5 batteries (initially in 1/43 - 4/43 they were mixed of SU-76 and SU-122 batteries).
- After 10/43 there were 5 vehicles in batteries (regiment still had 21). In late 1944 there appeared also three-battery SU-76 regiments for infantry divisions.

Unfortunately, this organization didn't fit for heavy tank destroyers like SU/ISU-152, which also exist here as assault guns.

The organization gets complicated in tank destroyer class (it concerns 014 TD Platoon, 112 TD Battery):
- Before 1/43 there were only improvised ZiS-30, which were used mostly in 4-vehicle batteries assigned to tank brigades, withouth higher-level TD units.
- From 1/43 there appear SU-76 (which were used in SP artillery batteries/regiments described above). We can use it as a stop-gap TD in 4-vehicle batteries.
- From 5/43 there appear SU-152. And they were first used in 2-vehicle batteries (#334 TD Section), creating 12-vehicle regiment (6 batteries and KV command tank)...
- medium TDs appearing from 9/43, like SU-85, were organized in 4-vehicle batteries (four batteries in regiment). To complicate things, from 10/43 heavy TDs were used in 3-vehicle batteries (four batteries in regiment) - but maybe it can be ignored
- finally, in 1944 there were 21-vehicle regiments introduced, with 5-vehicle batteries for all TDs.

The information above is from Russian books on SU-76 and Red Army SP guns in general ("Frontovaya Illustracya 4/2002")

482, 483 SU-76i - they could receive sabot ammo as well, introduced in 4/43 (maybe in smaller number than later units 345, 346).

Misc:

42, 135 BA-64 - size should be 2 (now 3), like BA-20, SdKfz-221, Tatra T-72 and wz.34 (BA-64 was similar or even smaller).
Same for Polish LWP #44, Yugo #10, Czechoslovakia 260

43 Halftrack - photo is Scout Car. Soviet halftrack is eg. here:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...d51ab5c036c219

However, the Soviets in fact didn't "waste" rare APCs for infantry, and there were no halftrack-riding infantry formations at all... According to M. Bariatynski "Tanki lend-lease v boyu" and other authors, 118 halftracks were used as recce or armoured command vehicles, and the rest (over 1000) were employed as gun tractors, especially for AT artillery.
Anyway, it's worth to duplicate it as class 32 Scout vehicle, like M3A1 Scout Car.


44 GAZ truck - the icon is very different from 1.5t GAZ - it has wide hood and tarpaulin over the cab (see a drawing: https://images.app.goo.gl/WSvRTw3561owkzZM8 ). The best one seems 3179/80/81, which is smaller than ZiS-5 and has open separated platform. Same for units 465 and 598.

I suggest to change name to GAZ 1.5t truck - they were universally known as "polutorka" (one-and-a-half).

It's a detail, but the photo is not typical for GAZ truck. Most numerous was standard light 4x2 GAZ-AA 1.5 ton. The 6x4 GAZ AAA were rare - but the photo probably isn't even GAZ-AAA (GAZ-AAA photos: https://www.mojehobby.pl/zdjecia/5/0...auto_downl.jpg, http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaw.../GAZ_AAA_2.jpg). A couple years ago there was better 4x2 truck as pm00160.
The photos of GAZ-AA are eg.: http://acemodel.com.ua/pages/models/72202/2.jpg , https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ie_(2-797).jpg , http://armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2//...cks/GAZ_MM.htm

The same for 134 AOP Light Truck (or it can be replaced with some field car like GAZ M-1 with icon 2746). Speed should be the same 18. The icon might be covered platform truck 3182.


74 BM-8-36 - better quality photo is at https://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/armore...sr/bm-8-36.htm

88, 468 SU-57 - the gun was in fact original US M1 57 mm. I don't know if they had US sabot ammo, but if they had, it could have been from a beginning. All sources say it had 99 rounds for main gun.

The second vehicle might be changed to eg. 125 Gun APC (HalfTrack) class - apart from three artillery regiments, they were used in 4-vehicle batteries in recce units.


108, 333, 336 T20 Komsomolets - size should be 2 (now 1) - they were noticeably larger, than tankettes, similar to Carriers.

BTW: as for 333 unit, there were not enough Komsomolets to tow AT guns and they were too valuable, so they weren't used as ammo carriers. Besides, they had two benches at the rear, not a platform.

129 BM-31 Andryusha - better quality photo: http://wio.ru/galgrnd/rocket/bm-31-12.jpg


332 Ammo Truck - it should be A/T wheel (photo of 6x4 Studebaker) and size 3 to be consistent. Since this is ammo truck, maybe icon 3158 with crates is better.

169, 485 KV-2 - a photo shows final model with vertical sides - it should be early photo 0081, with slanted turret front.

Russian sources and Polish author J. Magnuski don't credit early KV-1 with anything other, than 36 rounds of ammo, like later tanks (now 44).

As for names, unit 025, 486 KV-2 M1941 was a standard production, and 169, 485 was an early one, and both models were introduced in 1940. Early turret had factory designation MT-1, improved (standard) one had no specific designation and was called a "lowered turret". [edited]


339 T-27 [prime mover] - size should be 1 (2), like T-27 tankette

344 Carrier - known in Russia first of all as Mk.I Universal.


370 122mm M-30 FH - best icon seems 2105 (upper view http://technicamolodezhi.ru/rubriki_.../1971/art6.jpg) (icon 2128 is of German origin, has very different narrow tails and too long barrel.
Same for German #133 12.2cm Haubitze, Polish LWP #154, Czechoslovak #186


655 T-26 Dozer - I still couldn't find any info of T-26 dozer in Russian books, apart from a light snow plough.

However, according to M. Baryatynski, during the Winter War, in 2-3/40 there were introduced T-26 with disc mine rollers, apparently a small number. It could be reclassified, and the same icon would do (with appropriate changes in formations).

828 Studebaker US6 - could be doubled as a prime mover (for howitzers and heavy AT guns) and as class 23 APC (wheel) for motorized infantry, which has only 4x2 ZIS and GAZ at the moment.

870 Dodge T214 - most often in Russian sources is designation WC 51/52, rather than T214 - however, according to M. Bariatynski, they were known just as "Dodge 3/4t".

That's basically all for land equipment.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Aircraft:


In most cases I took the information from Russian books on specific aircraft.

75 Pe-2 - introduced to units in spring of 1941 only (now: 1/40), according to Polish article on Pe-2 and Russian Wikipedia. They remained in use until the end of the war.
Bombs should be 250 kg instead of 500 lbs. The other typical bomb load was 6x100 kg.

4x250 kg, theoretically possible, was rather optimistic maximum load 1000 kg. According to the article, more realistic max load was 2x250 kg and 2x100 kg.

From 9/41 there were adopted and used in combat near Moscow small 10-20 kg bombs, of which they could carry presumably approximately 50-25 in special boxes in a bomb bay. Though I don't know if such variant is useful.


76, 425, 426 SB-2 - bombs in #76 should be 100 kg instead of 250 lbs - it could carry 6x100 kg.

In fact, the aircraft designation was just SB - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_SB . SB-2 was a misnomer coming from engines' designation, eg. SB-2M-100 - with two M-100 engines. First few aircraft (with M-100 engines) were delivered in 2/36 (correct date), but in bigger number they equipped regiments only from mid-36, according to a Russian book on SB.

427, 428 SB-2 - only from 9/38 there were produced aircraft with M-103 engines and bigger bomb load (now 1/38).

If you'd like an own photo for M-103 variant: http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/sb2/sb-8.jpg , http://www.airaces.ru/images/aircraft/sb_2.jpg , https://images.app.goo.gl/rCYwfKo2h1SiXq2z9


79 Il-4 - used from mid-40 (now 2/42) (actually, only from 3/42 DB-3F was renamed Il-4, what might explain its late introduction). 2500 kg was max load.

80, 421, 665 Tu-2s - bombs should be 500 kg instead of 1000 lbs and 250 kg instead of 500lbs. Name was written Tu-2S.

According to the Russian book, Tu-2S were used in combat from 6/44 (now 8/44). (Earlier, since 9/42 there were used ordinary Tu-2, however until 1944 they were little numerous).

There could be also a variant with 1x1000 kg and 2x500 kg bombs (max load 2000 kg, normal 1000 kg).
As a fighter-bomber, 8x250 kg rather wasn't possible: there were 4x250 kg in a bomb bay and two bombs on external pods (250 kg or 500 kg in a maximum variant)


86 Yak-9B - photo is ordinary Yak-9 fighter, Yak-9B bomber is 4165. There are also photos with bombs at http://wio.ru/gal2a/galyak9.htm and http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/yak9b.html
It is not clear when they entered service - acceptance trials were in 12/44, but a small series had been already built after the first flight some time after 3/44. I've found an information in one book, that they were used in combat already in 10/44.

554 Yak-9B - used probably from 10/44, like the unit above - for sure not from 5/43.
It carried 128 (4x32) PTAB bomblets, so it probably it should be twice less, than Il-2, which carried 280, and also has 4.


130 I-16 - I-16 with rockets were first used at Khalkhyn-Gol in 8/39, however they were first applied as anti-aicraft weapon then. I don't known when they started to be used with air-to-ground rockets. On the other hand, #215 I-15 is armed with rockets from 8/39 alreaady.


131 Sukhoi Su-2 - introduced to units only in 1/41 (now 1/40).
Rocket armament was an exception on this type, and introduced only in autumn 1941, on some aircraft, according to a book on this type by D. Khazanov. I'd remove rockets or double it as a pure bomber, which was its primary usage.
Soviet typical bombs were 100 kg, not 120 kg. Typical Su-2 load was 4x100 or 2x250 kg.

It could be also a level bomber with 6x100kg bombs (max load).
There were also variants with smaller bombs, eg. 20x20 kg

At least from mid-42 until end of 1943 Su-2 were also employed as fast artillery spotter planes.
According to the book, from mid-43 a standard spotter plane became Il-2 (it could be added).


139 Yak-9T, 411 Yak-9U - no Russian books mention, that Yak-9s (apart from bomber Yak-9B) ever carried bombs or rockets, and there are no such photos known either. Only guns are mentioned as weaponry (eg. Yak9T http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/yak9t.html and Yak-9U http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/yak9u-107.html ). Seems, that during later course of the war the Soviets left ground attacks to specialized Il-2 rather.

Yak-9T was used fom 7/43 only, when military combat evaluation started (now 3/43) until the end (now 44).
It should only one 12.7mm MG.


141 La-5FN - there were no 75 kg bombs in Soviet inventory. But La-5 could carry 2x100kg instead from a beginning http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/la5.html
There's no reason why it shouldn't be available from 10/42, like other La-5FNs (now: 10/43)
In fact, all La-5FN could be renamed to La-5, because FN variant appeared only in 7/43 (armament was the same).

147 La-5FN - Russian books mention only bomb armament of La-5, not PTAB bomblets, which would need special bays in an airframe. There were no cluster bombs at that time either. To be removed IMO.


142 Il-2 Shturmovik - use of Il-2 with 37 mm guns probably ended earlier (by mid-44?) - they were considered less effective, heavier and production ceased in 11/43, according to an article in "Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie" 1/2009.
The name might be Il-2 NS-37 to differentiate.
Russian Wikipedia states https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%BB-2 that this variant could not carry RS rockets (according to the article, the pilot was focussed on aiming cannons anyway).

If you'd like an own photo of this variant, here are some http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aww2/il2-ns37.html

218 Il-2 Shturmovik - Il-2 with PTAB bomblets were first used in combat in 7/43 according to an article in "Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie" 2008 (now 3/43)

223, 226, 663 Il-10 - actually used in combat from 4/45 (now 1/45)


202 A-20G, 219 Douglas A-20B, 454 B-25 Mitchell - presumably they carried Russian 500 kg, 250 kg and 100 kg bombs instead of 1000, 500 and 250 lbs (were bombs ever delivered by Lend-Lease Act?..)
It concerns also units 85, 409, 412, 413, 424

Edit: I've found an info in Russian book, that bomb racks in A-20 were modified to carry Soviet bombs: 4x250 kg or 8x100 kg. First A-20 were delivered in 7/42 and entered service in late 42 (concerns #219 level bomber). Later they were evidently fitted to carry heavier bombs, although they were mostly directed to naval aviation (concerns especially A-20G).

Edit2: I've found a better book by V. Kotelnikov, in which he claims, that early A-20 were all known in the USSR first of all as Boston-3 (Boston III, B-3 in short) and they entered combat service in May-June 1942. It should be also available as fighter-bomber then. Frontal armament were 4 MGs, often replaced with two 12.7mm UB starting from 9/42. Initial variant could carry 4x250 or 4x100 kg, from 8/42 also 8x100 kg.

213 Polikarpov I-15 - it should have only 2 MGs http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/i15.html

214 Polikarpov I-15 - actually it's I-15bis with increased bomb load http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/i15b.html (photos on that page if needed).

227 Polikarpov R-5 - there were no 75 kg bombs. It could carry 4x 100 kg or 8-10x 50 kg - according to Russian book on R-5, max load was 500 kg and such bomb sizes were used, on ten pods. At least from 1932 they could carry also 2x 250kg bombs.

It should be doubled as AOP plane as well, being the most typical Soviet close recce plane in the 1930s.


416, 417 R-Z [level bomber] - according to Russian book Aviakollekcya 5/2009 on R-Z and http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other1/rz.html, first series was given to units only in 6/36 (now 2/35 in 416 and 5/37 in 417)

Typical Russian bomb was 100 kg, not 120 kg (#416 could carry 2x100kg and 4x50kg or 4x100 kg).
Variant 417 with 20x20 kg bombs rather isn't possible, as the plane had eight pods and there are given variants 8x8 kg, 8x10 kg, 8x50 kg etc)
It could carry also 2x250 kg

It is worth to copy it as a fighter-bomber (the same load as R-5, but better speed). Armament was one #159 7.62mm MG

BTW: as for Spanish Republic OOB units 411,412 R-Z Natacha - a photo with Spanish markings is 1041, like unit 400. Same as above - variant #412 with 21x20 kg bombs rather wasn't possible.


418 DB-3 - used from 1937/38, might be 1/38 (now 4/39)

470 Yermolaev Yer-2 - according to Russian book on Yer-2, it could not carry 4 bombs 1000 kg - only 2x 1000 kg on external pods and 4x 500 kg in a bomb bay in maximum configuration.

735 Pe-2 - I have no information if Pe-2 used PTAB bomblets, but surely not before 7/43, when PTAB debuted with Il-2. (I suppose not - they attacked German columns with bunches of ordinary small bombs in 1941-42)

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

I d'like to mention about BT-7 M1935 which now in Soviet OOB is between 1935 until 1937 and then disappear. That are years of production but looks like after switching to new model M1937 older tanks were keep in units and never modernized with new turret because in case of engine and spare parts that was nearly identical tank.

Example photo from invasion of Poland 1939 BT-7M1935 http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures...35_rakov1.html

How long this model tanks were in line probably to end of 1942 like newer BT-7 M1937 and to 1945 in Far East.

I include this dates and research inside this mod about BT tanks.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51835
there are also icons of all BT with German and Spanish camo


I'm curious that is possible to add an not numerous BT-5 M1933 (early) with very early tower with smaller rear
https://scontent-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...bb&oe=5F389E7D
Icon for Soviet and Spanish tank is already painted by me inside this mod.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

125, 416 I-16 - I was surprised to find in 2008 book by Mikhail Maslov, that I-16 weren't fitted to carry bombs as a standard, apart from few experimental and not accepted machines. Only in the first half of 1941 part of I-16 were refitted with I-153-type bomb pods, for only 2x100 kg bombs (now they are available earlier and have 4x50 kg bombs).

The I-16 could also be a pure strafer with 20 mm cannons - first mass variant with cannons Type 17 appeared in service around 1/39, like unit #125.

(I'm not counting here bizzare small series dive bomber I-16SPB, which could not take off by its own and was carried airborne by TB-3 bomber)

After rethinking and reading, it's best to set a starting date for RS armed aircraft in spring of 1941. In 1939 rockets were used against Japan in anti-aircraft role only, while they were not used against Finland (or Poland). In 8/1940 the Soviet air force changed mind and ordered to remove rocket launchers. They started to be fitted again on part of I-16s from beginning of 1941. In late 1941 they became more popular.

Sorry, books say, that basic I-15 had 4 MGs (even on the quoted page inside the text). However, I-15 appeared in units only in late 1934, and in bigger numbers in summer 1935 (now: 4/34) (book by M. Maslov). I-15 with this armament (4x10 kg bombs) were used longer, than 3/37 - by end of 1938 (fighting with Japan)

I suggest names just "I-15bis", like "I-16". It could also carry 4x25 kg bombs instead. I-15bis were quite typical as specialized attack a/c in 1941.

215 Polikarpov I-15 - I think, that rocket-armed aircraft should rather be I-153 - it was its typical armament since late 1940, and it carried 8 rockets. According to Maslov's book, I-15bis retrofitted with rockets carried only 4 (now it has 6). The date should be modified however - they were mounted in a number in late 1940, only after the problem with wing deformation was solved.
The change to I-153 won't need a new icon.

Armament with two 12.7mm MGs apparently remained only experimental on I-153 because of too low production of BS MGs. There was only a small series rearmed with one 12.7mm and two 7.62mm MGs - a standard armament remained four 7.62mm. There is no information about any trials to rearm I-15 with 12.7mm MGs.

There was also an attack variant I-163Sh with eight 7.62mm MGs (four in pods), but I guess it's useless.

423 Pe-8 - according to the book, in addition to two 1000kg bombs (on external mounts) it could carry only four 500 kg ones (in a bomb bay) (now: six), or eight 250 kg.
Other variants were: 4x 1000 kg or 12x 250 kg.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

673 BK1124 Boat - initial armament was two #34 KT-28 guns (T-28 tank turrets). From 1940 there might have been mounted current #50 L-11 gun and there were twin 12.7mm DShK AAMG. Later there were mounted #51 F-34 guns (T-34 turrets).
(According to "Enciklopedia monitorov" book)

More correct name is BKA Pr1124 Boat - abbreviation was BKA, "pr" is a short of "project 1124". Out of curiosity, upper view https://images.app.goo.gl/MXXvB5hBC4NBSkCk9

674 BK1125 Boat - the same remarks as for armament and name.
Icon should be different, than the above one, eg. 711.
(line drawing: https://www.klueser.de/pic/PanzerkutterBKA112x_HP.JPG )


There might be added a numerous light river armoured patrol boat, eg. copied with changes from Nat. Chinese OOB #79 - the photo seems to be a typical Soviet boat. Armament should be one #139 MG and naval 37 mm gun (012 37mm Hotchkiss?). Used from 1/30. Better icon however is 705.

I don't thnink anybody would want to create SB-37 class river monitor, with 2x102 mm and 3x45 mm guns ;) https://i.pinimg.com/originals/76/74...fa4f71e4a1.jpg

----


Weapons:

112 Tokarev ST38/40 - better name is Tokarev SVT - the rifle's name was SVT, 1938 or 1940 only marked model

114 Tokarev TT-33 - I suggest TT-33 Pistol or better just TT Pistol, as they were known in Russia (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%A2 ), so that everybody knows what is this.


That's basically all as for the USSR.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Great page http://wio.ru has an excelent tables about soviet riverine forces.

http://wio.ru/fleet/ww2armorb.htm


There is also table with diferent variants of weapons on Polikarpov fighters

http://wio.ru/tacftr/polikarp.htm

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Finally I could research DB-3 and Il-4 in Russian book.

In fact, both aircraft carried the same load, but they couldn't carry 25 x 100 kg nor 10 x 250 kg bombs - there were only ten racks for max 100 kg bombs in a bomb bay and three racks for bigger bombs under a fuselage.

Maximum number of bombs was 14 x 100 kg (possibly two bombs on one central rack?).
Bigger load was 10x100 kg and 3x250 kg.
Maximum load 2500 kg for close distance was apparently 10x100 kg, 2x250kg and 1x1000 kg.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

It's OK to present new found info but at least get the info on what's there now right. Neither aircraft have 25 100 kg bombs.

Also if **I** can find corroborating evidence the IL-4 was used in combat earlier than 2/42 then I will change it but that remains to be seen

https://vvsairwar.com/2016/11/02/the...ilyushin-il-4/

it does seem that whenever you find "new" info that contradicts what we have then what you found becomes the "correct" data we need to change our data to match..... do YOU have any other source that supports that new one you are quoting ?

I will make a note to further investigate the bomb load claims but so much of what we are hearing lately from people amounts to making slight adjustment to the way the chairs are set up at a banquet. The max load for those aircraft is 2500 kg over short distances and any tactical bombing on the easter front would be done over "short" distances so what we have is the correct weight just not in the correct combinations none of which have any effect on actual game play. That said I will see what I can dig up as well but this game was not intended to be ENDLESSLY tweaked for over two DECADES and the changes to weapons can have knock off effects to scenarios ( the number of bombs can change or the weight but the probems start when the number of weapon slots used is reduced )all of which need to be checked so this could conceiveably be FAR more work than you may think....that said I think I have a solution that will work for the 4 weapon slots used by the DB-3....5X 100kg + 5X 100kg + 2X 250 kg + 1X 500kg == 2000 kg and uses 13 hardpoints. The DB-4 will use 5X 100kg + 5X 100kg + 3X 500kg but PLEASE understand this endless nitpicking is GETTING OLD

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Sorry, I made an error in multiplication - it's 20x100 kg.
Sources dealing with bombs in detail are unfortunately rare and incomplete - I've found an info about 10 internal and 3 external pods in 2004 Il-4 book from Voyna v vozduhie series, and about 14x100 kg variant in Kotelnikov Il-4. Vozdushnye kreysera Stalina. I'm attaching a cross-section from the second book. I've been researching Il-4 for Polish Wikipedia purpose for last month, hence my interest in that plane in particular ;)

The quoted page is just wrong. Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-4 presents correct version, quoting references, that DB-3F entered production in 1940 and only in 3/42 it was renamed as Il-4. However, the problem with DB-3F / Il-4 entrance date is in fact secondary. The point is, that ordinary DB-3 carried the same payload, but maybe we don't need the aircraft with bigger bombs before 1942.

Besides, the statement, that "Immediately following the German invasion in June of 1941, the DB-3 was the only twin-engine bomber that the Soviets had in their arsenal" is wrong, because there were lighter Pe-2 and Yak-2 in service already, not mentioning SB and its later variant Ar-2... It might be accurate concerning long range bombers, but Er-2 entered service just in June 1941 and obtained readiness in August.

Fair enough :)

Adding 1000 kg bomb and two 250 kg might make too devastating effect on the first hex.

Then we don't need heavier variant before 1942, and we can stick with these two planes with modified loads.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Recently a lot of new documents about Russian organizations and tactics in WW2 became available. Maybe this is too big a change, but one thing that was new to me is that starting in mid-1943, every Soviet Rifle Company was supposed to have one rifle platoon replaced with an SMG platoon. I already implemented this in my most recent campaign, but maybe this would be good to officially add to the ToE.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

That can be added as an option for sure in the OOB but it's just as easily made by deleting one rifle platoon and added a SMG Plt

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

This is a OOB modification suggestion post, followed by a scenario information/idea dump.

==============================
Changes:

Currently, in the Soviet Union OOB, we have:

Unit 220 - Lisunov Li-2 (Unit Class 60 - Paratroop Transport)

It enters service 1-44.
This should be changed to 1-42.

Unit 471 - Lisunov Li-2NB (Unit Class 62 Level Bomber)

It enters service 1-43.
This should be changed to 6-42.

Investigate possibility of cloning Unit 079 (Il-4) (Level Bomber) as a Paratroop transport to drop heavy equipment?

==============================
Background:

Per Russian Wikipedia:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B8-2

and:
https://vvsairwar.com/2016/12/19/lis...eastern-front/

and
https://www.airvectors.net/avc47_2.html#m3

and
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92...86%D0%B8%D1%8F

and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyazma_airborne_operation

and
https://web.archive.org/web/20100823...-article02.htm

and:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90...BD%D1%91%D1%80)

------------------------------------------------------

The Russians started with the PS-84, of which 237 had been built by 22 June 1941, all in civil passenger configurations, though in 1939-1940, a PS-84K "convertible" variant was prototyped, which could carry 24 paratroopers.

PS-84s continued to be built during 1941 by Factory No. 84 at Khimki, just outside of Moscow; with 1.5 aircraft a day being built at one point during October 1941. Due to the German advance, it was decided to relocate production; and the last PS-84 built at Khimki rolled out on 18 October 1941.

Several months later, the first Tashkent-built Li-2 rolled out on 7 January 1942 in Uzbekistan. Besides the name change (now being named after Boris Lisunov, the head of Plant #84), the new Li-2s being built now came from the factory with a 12.7mm dorsal machine gun turret as standard, along with folding seats and a large cargo door.

Production of the Li-2 was:

1942 -- 422
1943 -- 618
1944 -- 627
1945 -- 458

------------------------------------------------

The use of the Li-2 as a night bomber (Li-2NB) began on 24 June 1942 with the 1st Long Range Air Division, while in August 1942, the 62nd and 53d Air Divisions began to re-equip from the TB-3 with the Li-2.

-----------------------------------------

The first use of the PS-84/Li-2 in airborne operations came with the Vyazma airborne operation in January 1942.

In the original plan 21 x TB-3 and 10 x PS-84 were allocated, to deploy the 250th Airborne Regiment of 1,300 men in four flights (Paratroopers first flight, and then infantry and equipment in last three flights).

It appears the final ultimate plan used the 250th Airborne Regiment, with 21 x PS-84 (Paratroopers) and 3 x TB-3 (45mm ATG) allocated.

Ultimately, on the first night of the Vyazma operation (18 Jan 1942) 452 men were landed by 16 x PS-84; and delivery of troops continued until 22 January; at which point 1,643 men, 11 x anti tank rifles, 34 x Mortars (82/50mm) and 2 x 45mm ATG had been landed.

A later airborne operation on 17 February 1941 involved 41 x PS-84 and 23 x TB-3 aircraft.

In 1942 and Early 1943; they executed two operations:

Maikop Airfield (24 Oct 1942) -- 40 paratroopers from TB-3 and PS-84 aircraft were landed and they destroyed 22 out of 54 enemy aircraft at the field.

Yuzhnaya Ozereyka (4 Feb 1943): 80 paratroopers were launched in four Li-2 (PS-84), but only 57 landed (one plane didn't find the drop zone and returned). The plan was to find the HQ of the 10th Romanian division in the village of Vasilyevka and destroy it to aid an amphibious landing nearby.

The last major airborne operation in WW2 for the Soviets was the Kanev landings, made while crossing the Dneiper.

Kanev consisted of about:

150 x Il-4 and B-25 bombers for aerial support
180 x Li-2
10 x Il-4 to tow gliders and drop heavy equipment
35 x A-7 and G-11 Gliders

The plan was to land three airborne brigades (two on the first night, with the third in reserve and landed on the 3rd or 4th night).

It turned out to be a disaster due to several factors:

1. The 5th Airborne Brigade learned about the operation 30 minutes before boarding their planes (!!!)

2.) Many Li-2s could only lift 15 to 18 paratroopers instead of the state minimum of 20 men in tables; and drop tables had to be changed at the last minute.

3.) Not enough planes -- in one case out of 65 planes allocated, only 48 actually showed up.

4.) Due to heavy german flak, they had to drop from 1000m instead of the standard 600-700m drop altitude.

5.) The 45mm AT Guns ended up not being dropped at all.

After this fiasco, the Soviets limited their airborne operations to harassment ops or in support of partisans.

---------------------------

Regarding support of partisans, many Soviet partisans were supplied through the use of gliders, specifically the G-11 and A-7.

In one such operation in March 1943; the 3rd Air Army used at night:

35 x A-7 Gliders
30 x GR-29 Gliders

to deliver

50 tons of ammunition
150 commandos
106 support personnel
5 printing presses
16 radio stations

over 96 sorties over 12 days.

You could design a special scenario with partisans around a landed glider, and German SS/Police troops in the area looking for them....but at the scales we're talking about, it would be better handled by something on the individual solder scale (X-COM) due to the low manpower density.

RANDOM NOTE:
In a glider operation in 1942 on the eve of the Stalingrad offensive, KTs-20 gliders were used in Operation Antifreeze from 12 to 16 November 1942, where they used 12 x Il-4 tow tugs and 12 gliders to deliver 14.5 tonnes of antifreeze for tank engines and 60 flamethrowers from an airfield just outside of Moscow, all the way to the Stalingrad front.

It took about nine hours to make the full trip, and when they got close to Stalingrad, they came under fire by Me-110 night fighters. (!!!)

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

KT-20 icon already exists in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51060

Story of soviet combat gilders https://weaponsandwarfare.com/glider...-soviet-union/

as Kolesnikov & Tsybin Ts-20 if will be usefully

and there description and nice photos
A-7 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/a7.html
G-31 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/g31.html
G-8 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/g8.html
G-11/G-29 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/g29.html
Ts-20 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/kts20.html
BDP http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/bdp.html
SAM-23 http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/...-23/SAM-23.htm http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AK/AK2013-11/46-5.jpg
C-25 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/c25.html
Yak-14 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/yak14.html
Il-32 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/il32.html

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

I have already redone them and built a KC-20 based on scale drawings

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1608814875

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Beautifully icons really great for soviet gilder borne landings.

I d'like to add to this article about PS-84/Li-2 which was main airborne transport/tug aircraft in VSS.

great article about evolution of armenent and painting on this aircraft from silver passenger PS-84 to Li-2 with copula on top.

https://massimotessitori.altervista....o/li2-camo.htm

BTW. modeller page about evolution of painting on soviet aircraft's before during and just after WW2 the best what I found in internet until now very detailed https://massimotessitori.altervista....ges/index.html

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

It's nice to see examples to work from.

I always like to see how close I can get with the game palette

https://i.imgur.com/yQdKSfH.png

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Impressive

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Over the years I have tweaked the original SP palette to use colours a bit closer to "reality"

One "trick" I have used in the last couple of years when building Icons is to give them a light wash of grey. "Shades of Grey" are the largest number of colours in the palette so when the palette is applied to an icon there will almost always be a shade of grey that has the same intensity as the brown or green or tan used for the main Icon. When viewed greatly enlarged you can see the grey but when viewed as an icon on the scale of the game the tones blur together and the effect is to subdue the main colour and give it a weathered "used" look

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Like painting models, now if I could only figure to how to wash and all that in Paint Shop Pro....

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

experiment

Try Opacity 15% and density 40% and use "nearest color matching" when applying the game Icon palette. Use white ( or black.....it doesn't matter which)

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

I will give it a try over the next couple of days. Thank you for the hints and tips.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Also, try using the free hand tool with feathering 1-4 to draw a "camo" pattern on the Icon then use the grey wash on those areas then apply the palette... one might work and 4 may not...experiment

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

I noticed the in-service date for the Tupolev TB-3 was a bit early so I built a Tupolev TB-1 to fill the gap...... I doubt anyone will actually use it but it was fun to build. The TB-1 is significant in that it was the first twin-engined, all-metal, cantilever monoplane to enter production in the world and adds a bit of spice to a "what-if" Russian-Japanese pre 1935 battle


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1609360644

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Look there http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/b/1387/1/0

TB-1 was used also in navy with float plane and as a transport during WW2 looking on camo is with post 1943 stars

This is also interesting TB-3 from civilian polar aviation in silver-orange colours used as a bomber probably on far north in night harassment
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/b/660/1_o/0

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

I knew it was used as a transport after being phased out as a bomber but the only transports relevant to the game are para transports and it was not used for that

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

My SOP for camoing Icons is to build one of each colour then draw the camo and cut it out and past it into the base colour. If it's a three-tone camo then you do that once for every colour not the base colour.Sometimes I feather it.....sometimes I don't. For winter camo I generally feather it

A technique I use occasionally is to enlarge the Icon 400% then outline the area I want to use for camo. When it's pasted in the Icon then can be reduced 25% and you will be back to normal game size and then apply the palette. Occasionally I use error diffusion but normally it's nearest colour. Sometimes one works better but usually nearest colour is best

https://i.imgur.com/0vuEL1i.png

The advantage of increasing the size 4x is you can draw a bit more complicated pattern with more control than it would be possible at 1:1
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1609450817http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1609450889

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Adding a footnote:

Only about 68 x KTs-20 gliders were built 1942-43; and many were destroyed immediately upon completion of their missions:

"The gliders worked the most, helping the partisan detachments. Sometimes up to fifteen heavy gliders were immediately sent at night for the front line to the partisan airfields. They did not return back - the partisans burned them."
-- Pavel Tsybin, chief designer of the KTs-20 and Ts-25.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Yep....it's why I never bothered to add them to the OOB until now.


I am surprised they were burnt. Nothing says " here we are" like a bunch of burning gliders

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Well, gliders need a lot of space to land safely, especially if you're landing more than one. If you're a German patrol in an area, finding a bunch of gliders in an empty field is going to be a big alarm signal "ACHTUNG PARTISANEN"

Presumably what they did was try and chop them up with axes for firewood (since they were wooden) and drag away as many pieces that could be rendered draggable, and then burn the remainder.

I would imagine that as long as you kept the fire below a certain size, the Germans wouldn't investigate -- it's 1942 and canned propane for camping stoves isn't yet a thing for a long time; and there would be a lot of civilian population out and about doing things.

EDIT: The SOP for Soviet Glider Landings for Partisan support was to have an "airfield" that was carefully prepared in the daylight, and then wait for nighttime, and when the friendly plane was overhead that night (presumably flashing running lights in a code pattern), light a series of bonfires to lay out the path of the "runway" for glider landing.

Another thing I realized regarding bonfires -- gliders are pretty big and have a pretty regular shape -- they'd be easily spottable from the air, and not every airfield is going be laid out allowing gliders to be draggable into the woods or placed under cover before the morning Fiesler storch observation flight by the Anti-Partisan Group.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Just found photo of TB-1 with floats

https://www.smartage.pl/wp-content/u...300x199@2x.jpg

And interesting story of ANT-7/R-6 which was an scaled down one third TB-1 which became light bomber and reconnaissance aircraft.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...nt-7-line2.gif

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_ANT-7

Only surviving aircraft is in Kiev technical school in aviartica orange-blue paint.

Here the story of aircraft as a light bomber was used until 1935 and then in polar aviation and transport probably also during WW2
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9054331

http://www.oldjets.net/kiev-technical-school.html

Here are photos description and schematics
https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...ssia/ant-7.htmhttp://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/b/662/1/0

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/b/662/1/0

Just thinking if is possible in the same way scale down TB-1 icon ;)

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

With the scale I'm using the difference in size is not really all that much even though the wingspan is 18 feet less for the ANT-7/R-6 vs the TB-1

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1609783890

and when all is said and done what's really been added to the game ? The R-6 was a recce aircraft but not an artillery spotter as we use them in the game. There was an ANT-18 ground attack version but info on that is sparse ( but as it's referred to as "ANT-18" it suggests this never reached production ).

I did find mention that the bomb load was only 113.4 kg (250 lb) of bombs.....that's hardly a game changer and that's the same bomb load as the Polikarpov R-5 that's already in the OOB. If flight range was important in the game then that would make it useful but we don't and in the end there would be two aircraft from the early 30's nobody will use instead of one that both look more or less the same but one has 1/8th the bomb load

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1609783746


EDIT........https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...ssia/ant-7.htm

if that is true then maybe....**Maybe** it might be worth putting into the OOB....maybe .....as a "light bomber" in UC44 where it *might* get some use.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Great that you prepared this smaller version even if is probably not worth the burden in game terms. Too early and to small difference to other soviet OOB's aircrafts :up: but if you talked about this meaby:

of course bomber until 1935/1936 which is just another not so different version of TB-1 but after that propostion as a transport (paratrooper aircraft in game terms) :?:

from https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...ssia/ant-7.htm
R-6 will be great aircraft to use in this discuses earlier in this post scenario of supply soviet partisans if was important as a gilder tug and aircraft which carry small detachment of paratroopers or carry ammunition supply canisters to drop them for partisans units. Especially in early times of soviet supply missions around Moscow in 1941/1942 Vyazma operation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyazma_airborne_operation until 1943 partisants supplly in Byelorusia when more Li-2 were introduced and probably R-6 were relegated to duties far from front-line Siberia and Arctica.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Just for fun........

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1609845555

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

NO..... NONE of those uses are supported in the game and we're not going to add them. There is no evidence to support the idea that they carried paras. By that time there were far more capable aircraft available for that. We don't include glider tugs or air landings in the game so the aircraft may have been used that way but we don't use them in the game and that is not going to change

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Since we're now talking old Soviet stuff:

https://desantura.ru/articles/16/?SHOWALL_1=1

So basically, looks like if you're simulating late 1930s airborne operations, you have to have your heavy stuff unloaded on the ground after an airhead is captured (Shades of 1950s US Airborne concepts).

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

More likely, the '50's concepts were reused 30's concepts with new equipment added

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Dig through your Russian Books and tell me if the Soviet Bt-7A was used as SP-Arty firing indirect one source I saw ( https://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/w...-Artillery.php ) didn't specially say they fired indirect but that the gun .........and you don't (normally) see references to arcing shells 4,200 meters for direct LOS firing

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

I haven't information about that BT-7A were use in indirect fire or not but d'like to mention that in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51835 are new icons for BT tanks and I rember that I created new icon of BT-7A tower based on tower schematics which maby beter than this used now in this tank there is even this experimental variant BT-7 with 76mm F32 if you dlike fine tune BT-7A inside game :D

https://i.imgur.com/7cfOqWB.png

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Yes I know all about your BT extravaganza and three of the four SHP files are now in the game and when I find an icon or unit that I feel should be added to the OOB's it goes in and the 7A was one of them and why I started asking about its use as SP arty as the wording of some of the descriptions of its use seems to suggest it was.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzpom1gZcag

The whole video is good but watch starting around 4:40....... Tank crewman is a hazardous job on a good day...worse when the powers that be need to prove something ridiculous that also needs to be recorded for posterity

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Starting next release the two existing rifle companies will both switch out the last rifle platoon with an SMG platoon 6/43 which will not impact the picklists the game uses so starting 6/43 the AI will pick this up just as the human player will.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

I know this is old but it related to another issue we found and are in the process of correcting.

That's nice but which "Russian book" and exactly which shell is the author claiming was "introduced" in 4/43 ? ....and does "introduced" translate as made-it-to-the-front "introduced" or when they started making it because what I keep finding ( when I can find anything at all ) is Russian 76.2mm BR-350P APCR, which is what the sabot pen in the game represents, did not make it to units until October 1943. BR-350A and B APHEBC by their penetration capability are what we class as AP.

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

This one: SU-76. "Bratskaya mogila ekipazha" ili oruzhe Pobyedy? ("Crew Brothers' grave" or weapon of the Victory?) https://voenka.kiev.ua/products/su-7...oruzhie-pobedy
It says, that in April 1943 there was "introduced BR-354P round into ammo load" (3,05 kg, 950 m/s, penetration 100 mm at 500 m).

However, Russian Wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/76-%D0...%D0%98%D0%A1-3) claims, that there was a cartridge UBR-354P (53-УБР-354П), while its round designation was BR-350P (53-БР-350П). Other sources however name the round BR-354P http://www.russianarms.ru/forum/index.php?topic=12611.0 .
There is also an information in Wikipedia, that it was "commissioned" in April 1943.

Unfortunately, I don't know when they got to front. Possibly the round was accepted in April 1943, and then started limited deliveries...

On this forum somebody claims, that BR-350P wasn't produced (it was developed for all 76 mm guns including short ones) and was replaced with more spacialized BR-354P http://www.vif2ne.org/nvk/forum/arhprint/112545

There is a discussion if BR-354P were available at Kursk, basing on information, that it was introduced to T-34 in 10/43, but there are no conclusions. https://trizna.ru/forum/topic/25722-...4%D0%B8%D0%B9/

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

I'm afraid there is no clear evidence, that they were available at Kursk... Surely they weren't significant then.

Here somebody claims, that they got to T-34 crews and AT artillery by May, initially in numbers no more than 3. https://reibert.info/threads/broniro...arjady.256855/

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

I'm going to go with October '43. No matter what date I pick there will be disputes but for absolute certain, they were not in use 1942 and yes maybe some trickled to the front in time for Kursk but adding units in just to give them a couple of rounds is a waste of time and I would suggest even *if* they were available then the most likely units to be issued something that scarce and specialized would be AT guns or Tank destroyers.

Thanks for digging around for info. I am well aware of how difficult some of this is to sift through

This
http://ww2data.blogspot.com/2015/07/...e-76mm_27.html

gives just about every detail including packaging but no dates but it would seem that for sure by the fall of 1943 there were enough to go around. I have also adjusted slightly their pen and sabot range to better represent their capability. What we had made them a wee bit too powerful at short range and not enough at their max range and their max was a bit on the short side but checking back that sabot range goes back to the very beginning. As Andy pointed out to me having sabot rounds changes nothing in dealing with more common the Pz III and PzIV

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Two great articles about Winter camouflage in Soviet Red Army with original soviet schematics how apply witer camo on various equipment

Tanks and vehicles
https://warspot.net/349-red-army-s-white-tanks

Guns winter and summer camo (soviet guns wasn't in grey metal colour)
https://warspot.net/351-hide-your-guns

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

I "added" a new green for next release. It replaces one rarely used that has mininmal impact on pre-existing games / scenarios etc that is good for simulating worn Winter camo as shown in that example

Shown here as 3

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1645196016
1 and 2 already exist in the game and it is a Series of 10 shades of grey-green

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1645196154
https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1645196253

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

Great idea with this worn-out green number 3
ISU-152 looks like model vehicle in article :)

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

The lightest version of the new green when washed over a whitewashed vehicle will replace the darker greys with light green but when viewed in the game shows up as a white vehicle with a hint of green and because it is created from a grey green it blends better with shades of grey than the other two greens in the game

It has other uses as well

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1645216164


The three greens together with their variations. The new green looks grey compared to the other greens but not when compared to an actual greyscale grey as shown in this revision

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1645302813

Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020
 

An upside or downside depending on your POV is that the new greens do not affect winter or desert maps at all and are not noticeable on a "full bright" map

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1645276755

they do show up on "northern" grass slopes in a "dark" map

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1645276793

At first I was on the fence about it but it looks perfectly normal to me now and does define the slope better than before

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1645277156


and some of the trees look more like they are in full moonlight now on a dark map..... no change when the map is bright

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1645303019