Range doubling
 

I put this reply over here because it isn't really about swimming tanks any more.

Hi DRG
OK not happening, But I just want to be sure you know what it is you're not doing.
-All- you need to do is double all the weapon ranges*. That's it! you don't have to do anything with hexes or maps. The Hex sizes are an abstraction , when you label them 50m you now just label them 25m, job done! but they are exactly the same hexes. Just doubling the weapons ranges, without doing anything else, automagically makes the hexes 25m without touching the maps at all or having to do anything else! Doubling the range also automagically halves another abstraction, the turn time, again without actually having to do anything extra. Doubling ranges is so incredibly simple and so incredibly powerful.
I started to produce the Mods for other users but hit a snag. The functionality to import edited .csv files back into the .obf file has been removed. So instead of doing the change in 5 seconds with something like =IF(Range>99,199,Range*2) in an excel spreadsheet I have to do thousands of clicks in Mobhack can we please reinstate the ability to import .csv file into the .obf file?
I have some more good news. I did painstakingly double ranges in Mobhack for a whole lot of tanks, infantry, field pieces etc and then played scenario 007 using the Modded OOBs. Guess what SCENARIO PLAYS FINE with the doubled weapon ranges.

Hello troopie
Ok so first you don't need to do anything with any Units, nothing. All you need to do is double all the Weapons ranges. unfortunately that is extremely tedious because of the removed .obf(OOB) file import functionality.
With 25m hexes you will still have an on-board direct fire range maximum of 5 kms with 199. So not a problem, nothing can really direct fire that far anyway let alone see or identify what it's shooting at. ie friend or foe. Anything with an effective range of over 5k has, or probably should have, indirect fire anyway
And yes, it certainly looks as though it doesn't make one jot of difference to scenarios. So lets go for it!
They originally set map hexes to 50m, probably because the original maps and screens were so small it gave more scope to the game. With the much bigger maps and screens it makes perfect sense to make the hexes 25m and I am sure this change would have the blessing of the original designers. It is a natural, nay essential, progression. So little work, such grand results. The necessary evil of the ROF/Movement discrepancy fixed, and fixed so easily!!!!

And don't forget the doubled ranges match much more closely/correctly to the Icon size. The rifleman icon looks big enough to hit something at 20 hexes, now he can.

*Accuracy, Fire control and Rangefinder values might need tweaking but play fine unchanged. You don't even need to touch any code! This is a very doable, very straight forward change. Please take the time to think about this, its an absolutely massive winner and so simple to do. There is NO downside. Please ask me if anything I say is unclear.

Re: Range doubling
 

The import csv into mobhack was deleted because it was a way to bring unvalidated data en masse into the OOBs, with no error checking whatsoever. Not coming back.

Feel free to produce your own OOBs with your changes in it and post them on the mods forum so anyone interested can discuss them there.

Re: Range doubling
 

This is obviously never going to happen anyways, but I'm wondering if Kiwi has ever thought about what other players want. I for one am satisfied with the way it is as far as the ranges are concerned (besides, if you double the ranges you would have to double the size of the map as well). The only issue I might have would be some periodic odd behavior for aircraft but I've posted about that before, doubling ranges has never entered my mind. I think though that making your own mod and posting it would be your best bet as Mobhack has said before, that's why the tools are there in the game right?

Re: Range doubling
 

Hi Felix
Thanks for your input I think maybe I am not explaining clear enough because I'm not sure why you think the map size needs to double. Map is now 10 kilometers by 8 kilometers If you doubled ranges map size would become 5 kilometers by 4 kilometers but still have the same number of hexes but would be called 25m hexes instead of 50m hexes, but are the same hexes.
Yes I do think about what other players want and I think they want a game that accurately reflects ww2 combat. As I explained earlier one of the big game problems is that the rate of fire of a unit doesn't match its rate of movement. For example a M8 greyhound can travel 30 hexes (90kph) a turn that means it can travel one and a half kilometers in a single turn. If you divide the distance travelled in a turn into the vehicles speed per turn, ie 5400m per minute divided by 1500m travelled, you find that a turn is 3.6 minutes.

So a turn is 3.6 minutes long.
The Greyhounds 37mm guns rate of fire is 10 rpm (and I'm being very conservative here).

So if the Greyhound sat still for a turn and fired its 37mm gun for that turns 3.6 minutes then it should get (3.6x10) 35 shots in that turn. It gets 6.

So calculating turn times using speed gives a way different turn time than if you calculate turn time using ROF and they -should- give the same result. So that's a problem. But I have the solution.

You can fix this by making the hexes 25m instead of 50m which is achieved by simply doubling ranges nothing more. With just that simple change;

Greyhound now travels .75klm instead of 1.5klm in a turn, turn is now 1.7min instead of 3.6min, Greyhound that should have got 35 shots/turn now should get 17 shots/turn (half) a big improvement because 17 is much closer than 35 to the games 6 shots. ie The discrepancy between speed and ROF is now only half as bad as it was. And considering actual real engagement ROFs about right.

All this is accomplished by just doubling the ranges, nothing else!

Hi Mobhack
Oh I'm sure you're good enough to put a little bit of error checking in place. What's the worst that can happen? I have to replace the OOB I buggered up by importing the spreadsheet data into it with the original I made a copy of before I buggered the OOB? I think I can live with that. Who knows maybe I could do it error free? I bet I could.
I would like to make the Mod for you but when I see how much -unneccessary- work is required it puts me off, but I might get there. I'm sure other players could make good use of the import facility as well. Please, please reinstate it. Maybe put a user beware warning in there somewhere?

OK so obviously turn length varies according to the vehicle you choose to calculate it with but in my experience it's always somewhere between 3 and 4 minutes
Here's another example, Sherman M4A1, speed 13, (37kph) so can travel 650m per turn. calculate turn time, 2,220/650 gives turn time of 3.4 min. ROF for a Sherman 75 is usually given as 10-12 RPM lets say 5 rpm so 5x3.4 is 17 shots. So bare minimum shots per 3.4 minute turn is 17 shots. Game gives 3. So doubling the range means speed/ROF discrepancy moves from 17:3 to 8:3, much more realistic.

So put tactically the problem with the game is this, any unit travelling across the map only draws a very small fraction of the fire that it would draw in reality from a stationary firing unit for any given distance.

Using the Sherman example if a stationary Sherman is shooting at a traveling Sherman that travels 650m (top speed for one turn) it has enough time, 3.4 minutes, to get 17 shots off at the travelling Sherman but it only gets 3. So the game is emphasising manoeuvre over firepower by basically letting units teleport about the board.
Felix the only change you will notice in game play is that weapon ranges are doubled otherwise the game plays exactly the same. Vehicles travel the same number of hexes per turn, weapons fire the same number of times per turn, some advantages of the change are you don't have to pile units up into one hex as much, blast zones are more sensible, range looks right because it matches the Icon size better, the map matches the Icon size better.
Numbers will vary slightly according to Morale etc but in no way make any difference to the argument I am presenting.

Re: Range doubling
 

A further thought for you Kiwikkiwik:
The GAME is NOT a simulation... it is an approximation of a tabletop wargame (6mm / 1:300th specifically) where there always has, and always will be, a discrepancy between model (icon) scale and ground scale!

Your "argument" is pretty much irrelevant as the rules / game system is designed around the concept of "emphasising manoeuvre"...

Re: Range doubling
 

You make no allowances for real life in your ROF assumptions using the Greyhound example you give & it getting 35 shots a turn.

That means all ammo expended in less than 2 turns if it was possible.

It does not take into account several things such as & sure there are more factors
Time lost acquiring & engaging each new target.
Crew conditions often cramped could possibly manage something close for a short burst say 20 seconds top.
Switching from ready to stored ammo its not all easy to access.
Guns also overheat & have a recoil limit you cannot maintain a high ROF even if it was possible to do so.

About the only guns that could maintain a high ROF would be artillery pieces as the crew is not working in a confined space & can be supplemented more people bringing ammo & discarding casings.
This would obviously destroy the gun in the process so only used in dire circumstances so its not the norm.

Firefights are not continuous you might get 10-15 seconds of rapid fire in a heated engagement from time to time but its not the norm.
So taking things into account the ROF is not off by anything like what you say.

I would in fact say units die quicker in the game than real life on average so shortening the game turn makes it less realistic.
I may be wrong not researched but if you want more realistic I would say slight increase in rate of fire but with reduced accuracy so it takes more shots & time to kill things.
Infantry battles would drag it is a game after all so I am fine with it speeding up the action slightly as it still captures the feel of combat.

In simple terms compare using a weapon to driving a car how often do you put the pedal to the floor & how long do you keep it there? Weapons are similar you push them occasionally & normally for short bursts.

Re: Range doubling
 

Which I think brings us back to the earlier point that this can already be done in Mobhack and through a combination of the settings in the game such as Hitting, Inf./Tank Toughness, and Art. Effectiveness.

Maybe a poll should be taken as to how many players would actually want the changes Kiwi described.

Re: Range doubling
 

Well, as he has been told before - he can make his own mod and post it in the mods forum and then folks can try it (if any are interested).

But he keeps hammering on with his novel-sized postings almost demanding that we comply and do as he says. That just aint gonna happen.

Kiwikkiwik - if you are so passionate that your view of what the game should be is correct - then go ahead and post your own mod. Otherwise, your posts are a waste of time since they are simply TL;DR. We make the tools that allow you to make a mode - so go ahead and do so, since we wont be doing it for you.

Re: Range doubling
 

Hi Scorpio
OK so I have provided two MOD OOBs in MOD forum. As I haven't got a spare year to go through manually and change every weapons range in every OOB in Mobhack I've just changed the weapons that are used in scenarios 199 Neerpelt bridgehead, 185 Agedabia tank duel, 223 tussle at thomashof and 129 crushing the pocket. load the two Modded OOBs, play those scenarios and tell me that you enjoyed the game just as much as before. I suggest playing them in the order given. I can't garentee I got it all right because because making the mods manually is probably just as error prone as importing an excell spreadsheet is. Maybe more so.

Hi Imp those are good points, but I do make allowances for real life in my ROF assumptions. So to clarify matters, Im not saying game ROF should be the same as theoretical ROF, far from it.
What I am saying is doubling ranges without doing -anything- else, automatically
makes hex size 25m and moves turn time from 3.6 to 1.7 minutes.
And
Makes NO difference to how the game plays except ranges are longer. You will see this if you load the MOD OOBS and play the scenarios.

So Imp before we doubled ranges greyhounds ROF per turn was 6. and a conservative, theoretical ROF is then 35 shots per 3.6 min turn. This is too big a gap between reality and theory.
After the ranges are doubled the greyhounds ROF per turn is -still- 6 and conservativly, theoretically, ROF is now 17 shots per 1.7 min game turn. So game ROF is about right now relative to theoretical ROF.
So the difference between game 6 and theory 17 ROFs takes into account all the issues you raised.

Or, looking at it another way after doubling the range the weapons are still only firing at about one third to one quarter of their theoretical maximum, which I am sure you will agree is about right. Before it was one sixth to one eighth of their theoretical maiximum, too small a fraction.
Infantry battles don't drag. Load the Mods and try.

Felix you can not get any of the benefits of doubling range by changing the various game settings
Range doubling benifits are.
ROF/Movement discrepency fixed.
Firepower is no longer underestimated because units no longer effectively teleport across beaten ground.
You don't have to pile units up into one hex as much to get the same coverage or a desirable different unit weapon range overlap.
Blast zones of small explosive munitions, grenades, mortars etc are more sensible. They now effect a much more believable area of 635 sqm instead of 2500 sqm.
Eases the exaggerated suppression overflow effect of the blast circles into neighbouring hexes because the hexes are smaller and units can be more spread out.
Max visibility lowers from 5 kls to 2.5 klms a much more realistic battle range, especially for identifying friend from foe.
Range matches the Icon size better so game looks better.
Map now matches the Icon size better.
Scenarios unaffected
Heavy hand thrown munitions and pistols now have a more believable 25m range instead of 50.
This tremendous improvement in game granularity leads to all sorts of as yet unknown better definitions.

Hi Mobhack
Im sure there would be a lot of players that would like to have a greatly improved, more realistic game that plays a lot better besides me.
Its funny how you keep telling me to use mobhack but actually its crippled by having had its excell spreadsheet import function removed. If you hadnt done that then I would have changed all the ranges in all the OOBs so people could try any scenario they liked. Without it Im restricted to changing just a few weapons in a couple of MODS. Mobhack functionality is severly restricted by that omission.

Sometimes I wonder if the designers had themselves realised this easy fix to the major game flaw of the ROF/Movement inconsistency it would be lauded as a great improvement to the game, which it is, but because I thought of it, it automatically becomes a bad idea. This is about the best example of cutting of your nose off to spite your face that I have ever seen. Compromise had to be made in the origional game because of those old tiny screens. With todays much bigger screens this long overdue change could and should be implemented, God forbid, even if it was my idea.

Re: Range doubling
 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c9/a1...fb6eaac3f5.jpg

I just don't know whether to laugh, cry, or maybe contemplate self-love with a cheese grater.

If there is some silent majority of players who want the range of all weapons in the game doubled then I would think now would be the time for them to speak up.

Re: Range doubling
 

Kiwi, I feel like it's the hexes themselves and the time abstract in the game (approximately 3 minutes per turn) that is tripping you up. It honestly makes me wonder if a hex based wargame is giving you more headaches than enjoyment. For me, when I play the game I don't really see a turn as 3 minutes of game time, in my mind it's just another turn. As for hexes, when I play I have the game set to show my ranges in terms of numbers of hexes, not meters or yards, so it's a lot less of a factor for me than it is for you. Maybe a game like the Combat Mission series would give you more enjoyment than the hex based format that Steel Panthers has.

Re: Range doubling
 

Hi Felix have you tried to play one of the scenarios with the range doubled?

Re: Range doubling
 

As someone whose latest scenarios all had 1:1 maps, I am against this! :D

Re: Range doubling
 

No, I have not, because I'm satisfied with the way it is now. As for your idea, it's fine if that's how you like to play the game, the tools are there for you to modify it, what I'm opposed to is that you want the game changed to your way for everyone.

Re: Range doubling
 

Ts4EVER thank you for your scenarios and work. I see your problem, Perhaps if you played the modded scenarios I supplied, you will see how the game plays much better, maybe you might agree this is a worthwhile though personally painfull change. If people are happy to play with units having half the shots they should per turn, maybe they won't mind or notice some half size maps either, but I am genuinely sorry to be suggesting a change that spoils your artwork. On the bonus side a 25m hex means you will be able to create a much more detailed and so much more accurate map.

Felix the tools are not there for me to Mod the game the excell import function has been removed from mobhack. Only an insane person would go into every OOB and change every range, item by Item. It's at least 25000 clicks and error prone.

Felix in the game -any- target that travels any distance attracts only half the fire it should from any given shooter. Hexes or meters. Put another way -all- units only get half the shots they should per turn.
Those are facts, no one has disputed them.
So you really don't think it's worthwhile trying one of the scenarios I supplied?
Recently DRG posted an essay on infantry unit frontages. From memory he said they normally have a frontage of about 25m. So to get this frontage you have to put two squads in one hex which gives anyone shooting at one of them a suppression bonus on the other.
If you double the ranges the hexes are now 25m so you can put the two infantry squads next to each other and they get the same coverage as before. But don't suffer the -unwanted- extra suppression issue. Same for small artillery suppression effects.

There are any number of other examples of how game "problems" are fixed if you increase the resolution this way. The 50m hex resolution is too coarse. The extra resolution 25m hexes gives greatly improves game play, because that is the size/scale that properly matches the units in the game. It is after all a tactical game.
Please try the sample modded scenarios I supplied, please have an open mind on this.

Re: Range doubling
 

Ok, I don't know what this import function is so you'll have to enlighten me. However, let me just see if I can drive down to the bedrock of what you are wanting to accomplish (let me know if I'm in error).

1. You want all weapon ranges in the game doubled and yet you don't want the maps sizes doubled as well to match the increased ranges. Why?

2. You want to dramatically increase the rate of fire for all weapons.

3. You also want to slow movement even further for units.

Taken together I would say that those changes would give a significant advantage to any defending units and I wonder if that may be part of your reasoning for wanting these changes. Is it perhaps making up for some kind of tactical deficiency? It is already easy to increase the lethality of your own weapons while making it easier to cause destruction to an enemy force by using the options in the preferences.

The last point I'd like to make, and probably the most important, is that you want these changes to be universal for ALL players, not just a mod, but you want to FORCE that on other players who DO NOT want the changes you want to make. I've said it before, if other players are out there that want this as well they should speak up and be heard. Why is it just your voice crying out in this digital wilderness?

As for squad frontages, 25 meters seems to be rather close together for me. Do you have a link back to the post you mentioned?

Re: Range doubling
 

The function he is referring to never made it past initial testing before SP2WW2 was first released in 1998 as it was revealed very quickly how easy it was for bad data to be put in and a lot of work on an OOB was lost and had to be redone. The button for that function was still in the MOBHack issued with the DOS games but it was deactivated and occasionally someone asked about it but was removed when we reissued MOBHack with the first Windows version. The only reference to it is in the MOBHack Help files

So it has not been active for 22 years and in that time we have expanded the existing OOB's and introduced MBT all without ever needing it and AFAIK the section of code that ran it was removed from both games MOBHack code.

DO NOTE we are told

Yet that is exactly what we are expected to do to make this change to both SPWW2 and SPMBT not to mention all of the peripherals like the Armour Pen calc that is set up in the standard 50 meters/yards and of course the game's code for distance as well.

I can well imagine the "solution" would be for us to re-introduce the function and add error checking and that is not going to happen.

The game scale is what it is and is not going to be changed.

As for infantry unit frontages

https://balagan.info/infantry-unit-frontages-during-ww2

Re: Range doubling
 

Thank you for the link about the frontages. Well, I for one appreciate all the hard work you guys do on the game, and all that for over two decades now. I honestly don't see how any of the changes Kiwi wants would improve the game in any way, they seem to me like a step in the other direction, and since the tools are already in the game to change things such as using Mobhack and the game preferences there just doesn't seem to be any point to all of it, it's all just spinning wheels.

It's like the legendary Steel Panthers player of yore said...

"I live my life a hex at a time. Nothing else matters. Not the mortgage, not the store, not my team and all their bull****. For that one mouse click, I'm free."

Re: Range doubling
 

100% agree with Felix on this, not interested in SP becoming a 25 meter game.

Re: Range doubling
 

There are a number of flaws in this plan the most important is neither Andy nor I agree it's a viable idea and we would be the ones who have to implement it then clean up all the little messes that will rear their ugly little heads over time and since we're not interested it's not going to happen.

I had waited for one of the 6 people who have DL'd these test OOB's but unless they are preparing a detailed analysis we are well past the time someone would have said " I tried this and it works great" because it takes mere hours for things we may have missed in a normal release to be commented on so if there is someone out there giving this a thorough testing then need to speak up

As Andy has already pointed out 255 is the hard max for range in this game ( as well as capacity and armour thickness but that's not part of this issue )....it's so part of the structure of the code than any change to it would render any save game or scenario inoperable. That cannot be bumped up without moving data away from the point the game expects to find it

So... the game uses >199 as the cut off point for off map ranges and the game thinks 200 is 10,000 meters. After 200 ranges are in blocks as shown in MOBHack Help

9.5 km - 10.4km = 200
10.5 - 11.4 = 201
11.5 - 12.4 = 202
12.5 - 13.4 = 203
13.5 - 14.4 = 204

etc etc up to

63.5 - 64.4 = 255 ( maximum value allowed )

so a rifle has a range of 10 using a full-power cartridge and you could bump that to 20 ..... An L40 75mm gun on a Sherman is given an effective range of 60 max and you could bump that up to 120 and think you are on to something.

An 81mm Mortar has a range of 51... could be doubled to 102.... but a Russian 120mm mortar has a range of 120 ( 6000 m )...... double that and you are 240 and 240 would put it into the same category as a gun that could fire 48.5 - 49.4 km because after 199 the off map range abstraction starts not just as a list in a help file but hardcoded into the game.

At 9.5 km the abstraction starts and we cannot simply say that it's not 9,500m any longer for off-map it's 4,750. 9.5km is when the lowest range for an off-map gun ( we fudged it down from a strict 10,000 m ages ago and there is only one gun in the game that has that range) so the bottom line is no arty can be simply doubled if it's current range is >99 and there are 227 on the list for WW2 alone and another 1866 in MBT and there are a number of tank main guns in MBT that are >99.

This is not going to happen so anyone concerned we might be talked into it can relax and if there is anyone beyond 1 person who thinks it's a great idea we are just too blind to see........well maybe it's time for you to find another game to play

Re: Range doubling
 

Then there is the fact that the "range doubling" has cut down the blast effects of HE rounds from arty and other stuff, since his hexes are now 25 units and not 50 - so a shell that had 1 hex splash effect (or MG fire) would need to be 2 now. That really would need code mods, and also previously same-hex stuff like say a 60mm mortar rond would need a 1 hex (25 units) blast effect. Could be done by fiddling with warhead size in his pet OOB files of course - but that then makes the weapons more effective (increased warhead size increases kill effec, and has side effects on things like immobilising or penetrating AFV). So he has opened another can-o-worms. But he has halved the effect of HE, basically.

Also, the points calculator weights weapon range as part of the factor in costing a unit. So things will cost more. So that means that all the scenarios need looking at for balance purposes, the iuser campaigns where the designer has allowed say 300 buy points for the user to buy a specific rifle coy (say) will need that factored in and rebuilt.

Altogether, he is really asking for another game than this one. He may well be better suited going and trying something else that's out there that does small unit tactics at a finer scale - say combat mission of firefight (http://www.windowsgames.co.uk/ff.html).

Re: Range doubling
 

Hi Felix
The impot function is a very commonly used, straightforward, methods of importing large lumps of data into files in this case from a spreadsheet into the OOB files I'm surprised the Designers cant get it to work. Secretaries in Offices manage to do it.

1. Because if you doubled the map sizes as well you haven't changed anything if you double the ranges and leave the map as is this -effectively- makes the map hexes half size, 25m. Map hexes actually don't have a size, there size is derived from weapon range, and turn length is derived from how many hexes a unit can travel in a turn.
Unfortuneately the two measures don't match. Doubling the range brings the two measures into line. With many many added bonus's Ive listed already.

2. Doubling ranges -effectively- doubles the ROF because even though the units travel the same number of hexes per turn, and units fire the same amount of shots per turn, Th critical difference is that fired upon units are now in range for twice as many hexes.
The game "plays" exactly the same Felix. please try one of the scenarois, you wont be dissapointed.

3. Units move the same number of hexes per turn with ranges doubled.

I am not trying to change the game to suit myself. I am trying to help make the game more realistic, This change does that in spades. Because units currently attract only half the fire they should defence is severely underrated in the game.

before you decide who as you say "DO NOT" want these changes they should try the scenarios I supplied, ****the playing experience remains unchanged****.
Please try a scenario before you make such comments.

Yes the wilderness, There is no one else speaking up because of the intimidating tone set in this forum frightens people into silence. Have you noticed the kicking I get on a regular basis this is called setting an example to stop anyone else having any ideas. When they disresect me they are disrespecting every member of this forum. Thats you Felix.

Re: Range doubling
 

Hi DRG
Thanks for considering my suggestion I'm happy that my idea has been discussed and I'm happy that you are not implementing it. I would point out to you that making suggestions about how the game could be improved does not mean I don't like the game.
No, I am not expecting you to make 25000 clicks. Frankly I am gobsmacked that you designers haven't retained the ability to import the data into the OOBs using a csv file out of an excel spreadsheet for yourselves. It's childsplay for a programmer. I can see that the function would be a
problem for users that are careless, but if you are careful in the spreadsheet not to introduce extra or inappropriate characters into the fields it doesn't present any problems. I feel very sorry for you having had to have done all that unnecessary work that could have been done so much easier straight into a spreadsheet, no wonder you are fatigued.

I mentioned earlier WW2_APCalc.exe would need to be tweeked, I haven't looked into that but it already has the correct penetrations at the correct ranges so I imagine it would be a matter of substituting in two columns when there are now one, not too difficult I imagine.

As far as long range artillery goes, I'm not sure why you cant just say its "not 9500 now its 4750"? would you not just say any gun with 4750 or better range gets 4750 (direct fire) range? as that would be the maximum size of the map anyway? And that for ranges over 199 the values would just need to be evenly divided up into the ranges from 475k to 64.4k instead of from 9.5k to 64.4
just to be clear I am not suggesting any changes to WINSPMBT,
Unfortunately I like your game most sorry for that.

Mobhack
Artillery blast is way overdone in the game already, there is no need to keep the current blast circle areas it could be left as is with the 25m hexes and they would still be overdone. So no need to change warhead sizes or eat any spagetti. Have a look at some reputable sites like
http://nigelef.tripod.com/index.htm
I've already demonstrated that artillery suppression is 62 times more effective in game than in reality. Blast zone effects are similarly grossly overdone. Artillery modelling is one of the weakest aspects of the game.

I though you might have spotted this yourself but I'll point it out for you as you missed it, You just need to halve the value of ranges in the cost calculator and it stays the same? So no need to look at the scenarios etc. or redesign any games.

I'm happy to have established that range doubling is indeed an excellent Idea but that the work load to implement it is too high thank you for your time. c'est la vie eh?

Re: Range doubling
 

The only place you have established that range doubling "is indeed an excellent Idea" is in your own mind and any thought that you have done so with us but we think "the work load to implement it is too high" is also in your own mind.

Re: Range doubling
 

1. If you double the weapon range, you need to double the size of the map to get the same area that there is now, that doesn't seem like a strange concept to me.

2. Don't you just want twice the chances to hit? You said yourself that defense is severely underrated in the game, to which I would say that you can adjust the values in the preferences to be able to play how you want.

3. So units now effectively would move at half the speed that they already do.

As for deciding who want these changes or not, I have never done that, it's you who wants to make that decision for all other players. Also, if disrespect towards you and everyone else on this forum is defined as not bowing to your way of thinking then I am guilty as charged. That being said, this is all a moot point anyways for the exact reasons given by DRG and Mobhack and since you've already "declared victory", I'm just gonna pull a Pontius Pilate and wash my hands of this, you do whatever you want.

Re: Range doubling
 

Basically, that sems to be the best policy for this particular poster since he does not seem to be interested in any other point of view other than his own.

As he has been told before, we are not going to implement his ideas in the game. Not interested in the slightest for reasons as stated before.

Now he is perfectly free to post his own modified OOBs in the mods forums, but all he has done is a couple of OOBs that work with 1 or 2 particular scenarios.

Those have been downloaded by about 9 people and with no feedback plus or minus. If these were seen by the downloaders as the "bestest thing since sliced bread" then someone would have piped up by now in support of Quicky - but none have, so you can draw your own conclusions.

Re: Range doubling
 

I was getting "flashbacks" from a "former" member of the SPMBT Forum. I try not to comment much in here, as I'm too busy in the other, however, since I paid for this game as well, I like to look in once in awhile.

This was insanity to me, I'm not a software/programmer kind've guy :shock: but, with that being said, I can certainly "read between the lines" and I saw an OOB Equipment "train wreck" on the horizon.

For one thing there is no time to be side tracked I what see as a misadventure.

We have 5 years to get both these games into the best possible shape we can.

I feel with the conversion to Win that Andy and Don might still be able to pull a "rabbit out of the hat" and "tweak" the code a little more out of the engine.

And with the OOB's we have more work then we know, as I've been finding out these last few years just in fixing "legacy" issues, let alone keeping up on current and future "current" equipment that might "see the light of day".

I respect the "passion" I've driven Don "mad" enough with both meanings of that word with mine. But I feel I've always been able to see the "bigger picture" in the end. In my small part out here is to provide the most accurate details I can to get any said equipment entered, modified or deleted to benefit the player.

I hope you noticed my choice for the "last word" in the last sentence.

As suggested modify it the way you want, offer it to the players and get the players feedback from it and be flexible enough to listen and adjust your mod as necessary.

But with respect, I submit in the "big picture" and the time constraints that we're under, I can't see it or support it, because for me I don't have the time for that kind've OOB work.

After all it's all about "OW/O/OOB" ;) because the world's a big place! :rant2:

I'll be going back across the street now! :D

We need more ME-G-MOES how about a Submarine one, can we at least do that around here!?! :doh:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Range doubling
 

Hi Fastboat tough,
Fantastic post! I didn't quite understand all of it, but it was certainly exhilarating reading.

Mobhack you keep telling me to make my own mod, But that's not possible. Mobhack in this instance is not fit for purpose because you won't allow it to have the excell spreadsheet import function. It is clearly too much work to do it unit by unit.

Felix the Idea I have is to make the hex size 25m instead of 50m I think everyone agrees that this game would play better with 25m hexes

1. I don't see there is any need to keep the same map area?
What I'm saying is that you can make the game hexes 25m by doubling all the ranges, simple as that. If you double the ranges map area stays the same in Hexes (The same number of hexes). But becomes one quarter its current size in Kilometers (because the hexes are 25m instead of 50m). You don't have to touch the map to make the map hexes 25m.

2. No I don't just want twice the chance to hit, I would like 25m map hexes.
having 25m map hexes solves the mismatch between distance moved and ROF. That's a big deal.
This mismatch makes defence underrated. I have just listed fixing this discrepancy as an advantage to doubling ranges not because I myself want defense to be more deadly. But I would like it to match reality better which it would.

3. No, units would move at the same speed they do now, but doubling ranges makes turn length half, so they have only half the time to move at the same speed so they move for only half the time they had before. So sort of the same thing, but they still move the same amount of hexes per turn, and ROF per turn is also unchanged.

Re: Range doubling
 

Kwicki

Which part of In the post above do you not get?

We are NOT going to do it, just because one person with a particular bee in thier bonnet wants it to happen.

Now, please stop bothering us about it. It's getting beyond tedious.

Re: Range doubling
 

I fear increased ranges will make the game slower, more boring, and much harder for the attacking side, which will now have to cover twice the distance under enemy fire.

Re: Range doubling
 

Don't worry.... it is NEVER going to happen for all the reasons Andy and I have already written about.