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I've been playing the demo, i realize its not the whole game. I also realize that game development is not easy, ive been trying to learn alittle. accually me and my brother make webpages for the moment and we want to make games later in life. anyways ive played the Space Empires game before and you used the same graphics set up. the battles are a bit so and the ships aren't very detailed. its a pretty fun game though i enjoyed it. the tools and setup were great everything but the graphics were great i liked them, its the look of the game that i feel through some people off from buying it. i cant say enough how much i really like the game. its just its look it looks older than it should. The only way i found out about you guys was through the underdogs and they said the game can rivaiavl MOO2 or 3 i can't remember so i checked it out, then i checked out my hard drive and found an older Version of it. I give the game 8 out of 10.

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A sign of the times I'm afraid. How many people remember Wasteland? Or even Master of Orion or the original Civilization? Graphics weren't great, couldn't get "great" at the time but the games were still top notch. Anybody still play them now that better looking games are out? My guess would be yes. The graphics don't need to be great if the gameplay can hook you. On the other hand nothin p*sses me off more than buying a game that has a cool premise and sweet graphiccs but is worthless to play... can anyone say Outpost?

[ 10 March 2002: Message edited by: Rlaney ]</p>

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M.A.X., Lords of the Realm II, and Starcraft are a few of those games that- even though the graphics are outdated, and the gameplay is 'solid' but not very deep- are amongst the funnest games I own!

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M.A.X., Lords of the Realm II, and Starcraft are a few of those games that- even though the graphics are outdated, and the gameplay is 'solid' but not very deep- are amongst the funnest games I own!

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Another good example is X-Com series.. the original games.
The Ufo Defense, TFTD and Apocalypse.
The graphics are WAY outdated. Realy they are.
But the gameplay is awesome, the only game that can be roughly compared by the gaming hours to SE.

It is not all about graphic, whatever do most say.
Also, i never played Outpost, but i did like the second Version - Outpost II. Was fun. At least, as far as i remember.

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Agree with all of you.

To put it simply, gameplay is everything, graphics are nothing.

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Well graphics are something, just that its not one of the top points.

Quite frankly, even MUDs have graphics.
There has to be something in the game that one of the senses can like in order for that game to sell.

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I still play the original Civilization on my other computer while this one is doing long downloads or disk defrags. I still had the original Master of Orion installed on this one until just a few months ago.

I also have The Lost Treasures of Infocom collection, from back in the text adventure days when the only graphics were printed on the box, manual, and props.

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Don't forget Empire Deluxe.
3X game from about 8 years ago.
256 colors
Simple 2D graphics
Superb easy to use senariou editor
Fair AI, (for the time)
Still a nice beer and pretzles game for a night when I can't sleep and too tired for SEIV.
In my opinio: Graphics for games are highly over rated.
My priorityes in no real order are:
Ease of play, (I would like to see this improved in SE but it is not a show stopper)

Acceptable AI, (keep in mind that the human mind makes more caculations per second than any super computer)

Depth, (not cheap)

Multi person play
We all have different wants and needs. Those are mine.

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talk about playing older games... Try Colonization, The original game that started the Civ series. It is great economy management and has some military aspects but the main part is infrastructure, perfect practice for SE4 (as everyone knows it is at least 50% econ managment).

GTA1 + 2 not great graphics especially the first but funny gameplay.

Janes Fleet Command (forced me to by a Voodoo3) is the modern fleet combat simulator that took me away from Harpoon.

And Starcraft of course. I still play on B-net sometimes, only when PBW is down/im done submitting turns, it is so solid, less complicated than AOE II but super balanced.

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Not to nitpick but Colonization did NOT start the civ series. Colonization and another one... can't remember what it was both came out from Microprose after the success of Civilization. Civ is great. I've played all but none ever made me feel like Civ1 did. Bought it at 5:00pm after I got off work, took it home, installed it, played for just a few turns(really..I swear) then looked at the clock and it was 3:30 am and I had to be back at work in 2 hours. What a bad day at work but IT WAS WORTH IT!!!

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I know ive hjave played them all guys but your missing what im saying. This is number 4 not 1 and the graphics still resemble the others. to be truthful im a gamer(gamer rehab it anit working) and i live in places like Babages and ive never seen this game or its pretessors. Its the look and the fact that they dont have a major distributor. even then ive seen some small time guys get in there with out a major one and hastings too. Im knocking the game ok. its the look guys look at MOO2.

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I forgot guys guys starcraft has way better graphics than this it has pretty good graphics.
gta 1 and 2 are pretty good graphical games

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ok soory forgot something else graphics guys some of the games you buy right when you look at them in the store or Online whats the thing that intreges you about the game and makes you want to buy it. Its the Screen shots on the back right. so graphics are more and if you say that graphics arent anything then you should come play my comedore 64 some time. and some of the text based games that i play ( no visual). so by telling me that they arent anything then you are telling me that you migh be blind or you would rather be playing a text based game. and in poll opinions it is one of the top points man i know i beta test alot. although i do agree that they are highly over rated. xcom was a good game almost all of them were but they came out with another called Enforcer, its an unreal type of game. Lords of the Realm has really good graphics for its age, lords of the realm one had weak graphics.
ok i got one that has good graphics and poor play reach for the stars i disliked it i still play but weak game play, P.A.X imperia decent game play good graphics kinda like that one. Man of war too hard to control game play is lacking. graphics are good.Axis and allies good all around. the out force i hate this game get the demo or buy it you'll find out why ( no game depht. BAttlecruiser 3000, its not that great kinda has hard learning curve. bnattles in time i hate this game. an massive multiplayer game mankind really god graphics good game play bad learning curve. that is not even a third of the games i own.

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I'll have to agree with Gryphin. I was drawn to purchase SE4G based on a couple of Online reviews that lauded the gameplay. Knowing that the graphics and sound left something to be desired, as long as the (re)playability and "just one more turn"-ability was there, I'd part with $40+s/h. For those reasons, I'd still play Master of Magic, even though the graphics are now dated. Eye candy is nice, but it's worthless without a sound game design behind it.

Gryphin... PanzerBlitz and Panzer Leader... EastfrontII and Westfront, as their respective inheritors. I still have the beat up boxes the former came in in a closet somewhere. I might even have some old SPI games like Terrible Swift Sword.

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wr8th ,
I modded most of my Panzer Blitz / Panzer Leader Boards with photo copies of war ruined cities.

My favorite SPI game was "Invasion America" that I played against a few of my Dorm mates from Europe and South Ammerica. What a bLast!
BTW: I think we are showing our age, I'm 47. Then again our age may be part of the equation. As we grow we learn that "beauty is skin deep". Without a solid core of value/s the relationship is not going to Last. (to over extend a metaphore).

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Wow... I remember IA!... barely. I added additional rules for production since it was too simplistic. Third Reich was another goodie as was Squad Leader and it's precursor, Sniper.

Yes our age is showing... I just started my fourth decade.

My son (who is 7) will probably have to fight me for the computer (he's currently addicted to AoE2) when SE4G arrives. I put out the Micro Machines models of the ST ships to entice him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Yes, I am sadistic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

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I think one thing that people are forgetting is that SEIV is not directed at the mainstream retail market. It's very much a niche product and MM very wisely kept production costs down by not hiring a small army of professional artists and animators. If they had tried to increase the game's appeal with snazzier graphics, it would not have resulted in enough extra sales to justify the added expense, since a turn based 4X game has only so many potential buyers. It would be interesting to compare the profitability of SEIV vs. a larger production game like MOO3.

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I am still waiting for SeIV Gold to arrive and in the meantime I've wasted Last weekend playing Master of Magic. What a truly briliant game and who cares about the outdated graphics !
I regard Steve Barcia as a more inventive game designer than even Sid Mayer.

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Originally I had been waiting for Stars Supernova to come out, having read previews. That's been more than a year with no real updates. In fact, they still don't have a publisher, WTH! When I saw the review on SE4 in December, I came to this website only to find that it was out of print with SE4G due out in a couple months.

Since it's enroute and I have Friday off, I guess I'll be vegging that day.

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wr8th, "Terrible Swift Sword" most excellent game, probably one the best if not the best of the Civil War Board games. I still have it, but haven't played it in several years, also have a lot of Old SPI games. but TSS was the most popular with myself and friends. ahhh what memories.

My opinion only, Graphics in a game should be rated according to the game type, shoot-um-ups like Quake, Doom, etc graphics would be big issue as well as play, in war games like Gettysburg, Shilo etc graphics are more terrain & unit type which are important but not as much as the game play, In space games, there is only so much you can do with graphics, other then ship-sets and race portraits, Planets, suns, astroids etc will always look the same or similiar there isn't a whole lot you can do, unless you have tactical ground combat whre graphics would become a bigger concern. to me, balanced game play and challegning AI mean more then beautiful graphic images. don't get me wrong, graphics are nice to look at, but the game play is the most important at least to me. You can have the best graphics ever designed, but if game play is lousy, then you wasted your money. Its not whats on the outside but whats on the inside that really counts. Yes Graphics catch your eye on the boxs and look sharp, but they don't tell you how the game plays.

just some ideas mac

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I had a similar problem. First heard about SE4 in a review of the best space empire games of all time and decided to take a look. By that time SE4 was out of print and I had to wait for Gold (still am actually).

When talking about graphics though, I should note that the lower graphics were one of the things that DREW me to this game. I love the idea of modding and making variant shipsets and this would not be possible if I needed an advanced degree in graphical design to make something that I could be proud of. As it is, all i need to do is a little screen-capture/background-colouring/resizing and I have a workable shipset. That is something that even someone of my modest skill (with the help of ACDSee and paint) is capable of.

Uber graphics would nullify one of the games main selling points, the ability to customize it to your liking.

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EvilKnight,
I don't think we missed your point. I also don't think Space Empire players fit the "norm" as seen in a survey about what computer game players want. There is a thread, "How Old are You" that showes most of the people who posted to that thread started as people who played board games and miniatures. Graphics is not a high point in "cardbord" games. Qualty of play is very high. There are a couple of threads about what people would like to see in Space Empires. I don't recall seeing graphics mentioned.

Another aspect of graphics in this game. People like / want to create their own graphics.
Indeed, The graphics for Squad leader were byproducts of the graphics created by people who "modded" PanzerBlitz and Panzer Leader. Those are cardboard games by Avalon Hill.

I discovered SEIII when a friend mentioned it. I would not be surprised if word of mouth or an Online review is how most if not all people find out aobut Space Empires. I expect that the demo is what sells the game at that point. There is a another thread I belive started by Richard within the Last two weeks that among other things explains why this game is not available retail. In short, retail has been the death of many a good game company and their games.

As for the graphics in older computer games, please see my post about Empire Deluxe.

Overall, I do see your point. I do follow your arguments. They are well put within the context you mention. Even as you qualify your points , you define by not describing what I have seen in most of the people who play Space Empires.

I don't know if this helps.
Anybody think I'm off base here? I've an open mind and would like feedback. Also, Does anyone have the links to the threads I mentioned?
Thanks

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like i said guys i agree that graphics arent the world of gaming and i do agree that the look doesnt always match the gameplay which i named off some games already. all im saying is that it wasnt what i expected, and and the game type does make a difference to just like Major Mac said. Hell i used to play d and d. hell most gamers (expessailly stragegy games start like that). so your saying Gryphin that you've never bought a game just because of how the box looks? I didnt say i didnt like the game now (read my ealier Posts) i liked the game over all. it was just that section where i feel it was lacking. you guys make it seem like im knocking the game, because of gameplay and im not. How many are gonna buy MOO3? i am.
new subject kinda off base but gamers to me don't judge eachother by race, reglion, sex, occupation, age, and anything else you can think of. gamers are well fir lack of a better word at the moment their own race of people, who else in the world would get on a game and talk about some of the wild stuff we talk about ( and know what we are talking about), some of the funnest things are that ive gotten mail from all over the world when i played MAnkind (in game mail system) from gamers like you and me who felt americas pain and im sure they dont want other gamers to die becuase think about what kinda of world would it be with out gamers? it was a bit off base i know but i got an in game mail yesterday on MK and a guy was talking about this. thought i'd share.

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i didnt mean funnest like it sounds ok.

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EvilKnight,
Gotcha,
Based on what is on the box? I've been buying games for over 20 years. I can't say never. I can say that I belive the main factors have been:
Recomendations by others
Experiance with the companys other games, (this is more for board games). This does not hold as true for computer games.
Since I don't buy "arcade style / shoot em ups", I belive I have always looked for a referance to the 3Xs even before I was aware they ad been "defined". The key words for me were always Strategy, Conquest, Eploring, Expansion, War game and the like.
Um, If I understand
"most gamers (expessailly stragegy games start like that). "
You mean that most stratey game players start out as RPG players. I would have to say that is your experiance. I personaly doubt you can make that broad a statement. It may have changed since I was in my early 20s.

ER: no, not that you were knocking the game, but rather we addressed the comments you made and were careful to apply it to ourselves and our gneral experiance with others.

Yes, within the WarGame community there is a lot of mutual respect and many friendships built like the ones intermixed with the Gryphin GrowlTigga thread, (now the "Ye Olde Galatic Bar and Grill and Phongs Head Cantina").

EvilKnight, please don't feel like we are picking on you. We truly are just exchanging views and sharing experiances. Try to remember that tone inflection does not come through in print. Catch some of my other post and I think you will find I am harmless, (unless you are on the recieving end of my Torps).
Enjoy the game and I hope to trade blows with you in PBW some day.

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EvilKnight, please don't feel that anyone thinks you are knocking the game, if that is the impression you got, I apologise, this forum is open and has frank discussions on all kinds of topics, everyones opinion counts and most are discussed, that doesn't mean anyone is downplaying you. If you read the threads on this forum, you will see quite a number of questions, discussions and good and bad points concerning the game, this forum is not like most others, everyone is allowed to say what they feel and in the process opens it up for discussion by the rest of us. If you took our responses out of context I once more apoligise for myself, no offense intended, by discussing things is how we end up petitioning MM for changes, thats what makes this game and forum unique, because MM & Shrapnel listen to us gamers and they try to fix what those of us mention. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

just some ideas mac

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Richard has said that the reason you don't see Shrapnel's games in stores like Babbage's is that they've never found a distributor whose terms were fair.

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I used to buy games based on the picture on the box. Got some great games that way but also got burned a fair amount of times. With age most of us learn to be more frugal with our spending money, either through the painful process of getting burned or just sheer necessity. Nobody is accusin EvilKnight of knockin the game, and he's right. The graphics will scare off some players but I think the more seasoned players among us have learned to look beyond the surface for a deeper...something. Be interesting to know how long people who like SEIV have been playing games. I think the wisdom would come more with experience than with age. BTW... thanks for remindin me about x-com and master of magic. Now I gotta dig out the old 3.5's and load them up again.

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Rlaney, I love SE4 and have been playing Space Empires since SE2 was available. I started playing computer games in 1976, a game called Planet Miners for the TRS-80. Games have come a long way since then. The reason I stick with Space Empires is the constant support of the game by MM. With most big publisher games support ends as soon as the team moves on to the next game, not so with MM.

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check out the "How Old are You" thread, this gives a lot of info on some of our players and tells you how long a good portion have been playing.

I started in 1960 with board war games all the way up until now. including over the years, the old ataris, commodores, apple in regardst to wargames.

just some ideas mac

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mac5732:
I started in 1960<hr></blockquote>

Blinkin' flip, I wasn't even born in 1960

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GTG, LOL

mac

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mac5732:
GTG, LOL

mac<hr></blockquote>

No worries Maccy my man, we have decided that you are the silent and deadly type (rather than the silent and violent type) so wonder whether you would like to join the Avenger Alliance forming up in the farthest gravity wells of the galaxy against all infidels - the avian and feline members of this hegemony are natural born warriors so the scientists of Tchakik would be a great boon to the clan

Waddya' say Maccy m'boy?

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hehe, ive been playing games since i was a bout 5 or 6 so about 13 to 14 years now. i agree that it seems like most Strat gamers where rpgers at one time, i dont know if we just get bored of it or what( i used to play alot of rpgs, now ill only play a few). i usually stay to a couple of compaines, sierra, mircpose and infrogames,impressions, Lucas arts(sometimes)westwood(older Cand C games, Gt interactive. i usually will stay with them and every picky about who's games i buy. i just bought Empire earth and the computer kicks my butt alot! its cool. I have learned the hard way also looks arent every thing and ive been burned usually acvually almost always when i dont pick from my more trusted game developers. ive only had one or two occations where i was burned by them and one was X-com interceptor. I hav X-com Apocolips if any one wants a copy, and terror of the deep. Personally my wife thinks i love games more than her, and shes probably right! heheh. Im an addict what can i say. if you want to see a cool site got to www.lhswolverines.org and look for my bros webpage he did for his Enviromental science class. it pertains to the wet Dam beavers. anyways ive been playing sierra and Mircoprose games since like forever im one of their most loyal customers( although i wont buy every thing they put out there.) ive beta tested for both and i get special discounts!!!!

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" i just bought Empire earth and the computer kicks my butt alot! its cool. "

That would be because it cheats. Even on easy. I don't have a problem with AI cheating to get a challenge- the AI right now in any game is really more like AS- but on easy the thing whips me. It shouldn't NEED to cheat given how much I suck. But it does anyway, and it's impossible to turn off.

Phoenix-D