Asal Uttar
 

This scenario is a nightmare. The Pakistani forces have no chance of willing or even getting a draw.

The battle lasted 15 turns, I had to 4 tanks, 1 jeep, and the APC with the HQ unit and two out of four fights and my artillery. The computer had mercy and end the game at this point. Decisive Defeat.

The biggest issue was that the 90mm guns could hardly kill things. Taking four hits or more if the gunner was lucky and the AI only had to move two tanks, the rest sat there like metal forts.

I came up through the woods, using teams of tanks, leapfrogging and still, it was a slaughter. I sent three tanks along the railroad line thinking I could get a flanking force...and almost made that happen until the AI caught on and blasted one tank to impotent status with ALL weapons gone in one hit. The other two took out Sherman together...Yay me....only to die from other three Shermans and a Centurion.

Yeah, this one had me almost wanting to strangle the Paki commander thrice over. Court Martial has to be in his future.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

There are two Asal Uttar scenarios.....39 and 102. Which one are you referring to?

Re: Asal Uttar
 

39 is the one I referring to.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

The one with the large SWAMP on each side and you play as the Paki side, the 102 one is in a farming area with no swamp or woods and you play as the Indian side.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

The same one that the scenario write up says....


sounds like you got the historical result.

Don

Re: Asal Uttar
 

Oh, I got that alright...in fact I was about to start a general withdrawal aka run like hell when the game stopped. I read the write-up, and was like okay let's use the woods, keep the tanks together and use their weapons to support each other use what infantry I have as flankers, and move slowly...yeah that was a mistake. 20pdrs, 105s, and 76mm guns made quick work of the armor and jeeps. The Paki's 90s were bouncing off the armor of even the AMX tanks.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

Yeah, that was one of my few decisive defeats against the AI (another one being one scenario in SPWW2). You are practically forced to fight long range against an enemy superior to you in long range fighting.

That being said, I played that scenario in 2011 when I was a complete newbie to the game. In this situation, I'd use mortars (if the player has them, I don't remember if you actually have them in this scenario) or tank guns to create smoke screens and try to close the distance. I do vaguely remember that the few times I managed to close the distance the tank exchange ratio was more even.

If I find time I might give this scenario a second try. There is a very good chance that I won't get anything better than a draw, but I'm confident that I won't lose that badly as in the first time.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

Sometimes the challenge is simply to do better even though the odds are against you. The best scenarios are the ones that keep you coming back every couple years to try them again. That's not to say this is the best scenario for that but most players don't like getting mopped up by the AI:D.... and I doubt you are the only one thinking of giving this one a try again. This is a winMBTv2 scenario released in 2006.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

Remember that in the real battle, the Pakistanis had absolutely no idea they were in a kill sack till they were in it.

Here, you are forewarned and can try something like firing smoke since you are not surprised the Indians are out there.

But as Don says - in some situations all you can do is replay and see if you do better pointswise next time.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

Being beaten by the AI, when it does something different and doesn't swamp you with tanks or artillery or game you to win then, hey it happens. I am happy to get a draw most of the time.

Since you guys took away our ability to game the game with first turn arty attacks on the AI...:D

Re: Asal Uttar
 

Re: Asal Uttar
 

After reading this I decided to see how well I could do.

As DRG said, you have more intel about the Indians then the Paks did.

Also, with the exception of the Centurions, your tanks are better. Shermans are easy to kill and their main gun isn't very good at range.

I started by laying smoke to block the view of the lower approach to the city. I then sent all units down this road instead of splitting my forces into 2 columns.

I used my airstrikes to spot the hidden Indian tanks then used smoke to create fire lanes where I could overwhelm small groups of Indian tanks at a time.

I managed to take all of the v hexes but heavy losses only got me to a 1.5/1 Draw. Considering the historical outcome, I am happy with this.

It is fun to play scenarios like this when you have nothing to lose.

Give it another try.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

Given the Historical outcome, I would say a 1.5/1 Draw is a marginal victory for the Pakistanis for, in reality, their defeat here cost them the initiative in the war.

I am surprised at how many maps I found of this battle and discussions of it

https://medium.com/indian-defence/ba...d-86d289cd6798

Re: Asal Uttar
 

I went in knowing the Indians were there, I didn't go in with the idea that even knowing that meant I was going to win. I tried the middle approach, using the forest as the cover, it didn't help and the Paki airforce...yeah they were there but didn't do much really.

As for your comment that the M48s and M47s are better tanks, what scenario did you run? The Shermans were killing them just as easily as the Centurions and their 105s and 20pds. The 90mm pop-gun wasn't doing much of anything against anything without three hits on a target and even then that was lucky.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

I played scn 39.

At range my 90s got kills against Shermans and AMXs about 75% of the time while the Indian 76s killed mine less than 20% of the time.

The Centurions got kills about 90% of the time so I smoked them in as much as possible.

I only killed 3 tanks with my aircraft but they were much more valuable in spotting the Indian tanks.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

The one with the flood fields? Cause that's the one I am talking about. The Paki tanks couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and when they did it took 3 hits or more to kill anything and I have the preferences at the default levels. I watched 90mm rounds hit the AMXs and bounce for no damage. Shermans were taking two hits to kill. The Cents side or front the 90s weren't doing much of anything.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

The random number generator (and game experience) pretty much guarantees that no two players' games on two different computers will play out exactly the same even if they make exactly the same moves and target engagements in exactly the same scenario.

It's one reason why this game system, in all its versions, has been and continues to be played for over a quarter-century.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

IIRC the Indian Cents in the scenario are mostly 20 pounder armed ones, with just a company at most of 105mm armed ones. Not only that, but they are mostly armed with the Mk1 shot (the 20 pen round) instead of the 30 pen Mk3. That helps the Pakistani Pattons survive a little bit better at long range (I do remember in my game a platoon of Pattons shooting their whole ammo vs another Indian platoon doing the same...and only 3 tanks in total out of 10 or so being destroyed).

Even so, long range fighting is definitely a handicap for Pakistani armor. To have any realistic chance of survival, the player needs to close the range ASAP (and on heavily muddy field to boot).

Re: Asal Uttar
 

Getting close...I never got that chance, ranged fire tore my Paki tanks to scrap metal.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

You have more resolve than me I gave it a couple of shots before giving up.
Long time ago so cannot really remember but the main problem is getting flank shots on the Centurions as they need to be dealt with.
Causes time problems but try using the railroad & smoke to limit engagements, you have a lot offboard arty & tanks to plug gaps.
Really needs micro managing to get smoke clearing right, beware of the infantry they can really mess things up if you try to close which is when I threw in the towel as it was frying my brain.

Gamey way possibly attack with virtually everything in the bottom half of the map then let them come to you.
Good luck if you try again.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

I am playing this scenario. I'm already on the fourth attempt... And yes. I'm going to bet on the smoke.

Re: Asal Uttar
 

Difficult battle. I was able to take all the targets but at high cost. I had several tank kills from micromanagement errors due to tank congestion.
The northern battalion had fewer losses than the southern battalion.
I used a lot of smoke.
The advance was directly by road, except for one company which I sent across the railways and which reached the southern objectives in the last turn.
I will not give more details so that whoever wants to play this scenario does not lose the surprise :)

https://i.imgur.com/AplBExR.png
https://i.imgur.com/c3b1EnB.png