Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Hi,
I was wondering if there is a possibility of updating the campaign system, maybe for the 2024 patch. Two things stand out to me:
1. I have received feedback regarding my 29th Infantry campaign that casualties that went unreplenished counted "double" in the next scenario, as if the AI destroyed the units again. Assuming this is the case: Would it be possible to change that?
2. It would be cool if the campaign designer had the option of "splitting" a fixed core force.
Some examples of how this could be utilized:
- You start a defensive scenario with only one platoon of your core company of the map, the rest arrive later as delayed reinforcements (so far only possible with aux troops) in order to save the day.
- You have a campaign where the player's core force consists of two different units, for example one paratrooper unit and one infantry unit. Depending on the success of the paratroopers, the next scenario, where you play as the infantry, is switched to a harder or easier variant. Maybe they managed to take out an artillery battery and the enemy has less offmap artillery to work with in the next scenario.

Would that be technically possible?

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

I will deal with point #1 for now but I need more detail...... you were given feedback but what battle in the campaign was this ? There are 16 individual scenarios. The campaign code goes back a long way and we have not made any adjustments to it that I know of in ages and I do not recall ever hearing that casualties were being counted twice so more details are needed to investigate this.

So... to be clear...... the player had taken casualties but had not rebuilt the units and in the next battle, the losses were carried over a second time?

How did whoever reported this know that unless they did not take many casualties in that next battle? That is really something a saved game is needed to investigate. It's hard to fix something without the evidence

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Yes, hence my careful wording. I am not 100% sure this is even the case.
This is what SASTroop wrote a while back in the 29th Infantry thread:
"i) One more flaw, but I am unsure of this one. Axis gets weird bonus points other than artillery stack throughout most of campaign. I believe Axis benefits from any of my destroyed units even if these were destroyed in prior scenarios. This means that I get penalty for losses over and over and on many occasions I am pushed into draw even though I have clearly scored a minor win. I do not make campaigns though, so I am not sure if works like that;"

Back in 2012 this was also claimed by testers.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

I just ran your campaign.... we have a way to generated final battle results without having to play the entire scenario.

NOTE there is a mixture of Decisive, marginal and draws

https://i.imgur.com/51dt6fz.png

The first real battle is a beach assault. I didn't load half the troops so they drowned on start. I fixed some but not all so the campaign always carried US casualties right to the end

The Germans didn't get any "surprise" points at the end of any battle

This was the end screen for battle #10
https://i.imgur.com/dWjOaLR.png

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Ok then this is not an issue at all, great!

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Maybe.

I need to run a full battle all the way through normally to know 100%.

The "cheat" ending assigns fixed points which may negate any points acquired by the Germans the way you describe giving a false negative

.....It's just a question of finding the time to play out 20 turns....

EDIT

I did play it out but I was letting the AI do most of the work while I did other things and for reasons unknown, I got to the end and saved the game with the intent of seeing how the damaged units carried over and if the German side had unexplained points but I somehow fumbled the save and lost it so now I have to start over.......if anyone else whats to try and can get a save that shows inexplicable points given to the German side then please do.

You will need to make a save game both at the end of that scenario AND the beginning of the next and post both so we can see the end of one and the beginning of the other with these mysteriously added points and debug it if need be.

MANY questions like.......

Was this observed after restarting the game and playing the next battle or was it only seen if one battle was played right after the other...

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

I did actually try around a bit (currently working on a rework of that campaign). I did not really do it in a "methodical way", but to me the scoring seemed completely fine. So if it actually happened for other people, it probably is not "standard game behaviour", but maybe some kind of weird edge case.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

I MAY have found something:

I am testing an updated version of my 29th Infantry campaign right now. This is the situation:

I finished one of the scenarios, took losses but took all the v-hexes. Result is a DV, I get tons of points for the objectives, Jerry gets some points for losses (I assume).

After that I built in a "switch scenario". This is a scenario entirely without combat where the player can choose between two campaign paths. Basically it has a 2 round timer limit and either you hold still or move to take the one Vhex, worth 800 points. The Germans just have some HQ somewhere out of the way.

I finished that scenario by taking the VHex and got a minor victory. I get 800 points, as expected, the Germans also get 100 odd points, despite having inflicted no new casualties. I should add that there are no repair points for this switch scenario, so I still had the same losses as in the one before. Is this the problem described by SAS? Or is there some other mechanic at work? If so, that might explain the confusion some people have regarding the scoring system.

I attached pictures of the end screen.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Could be...129 points for doing nothing is suspicious.... the issue is that 129 points the Germans get does not correspond to anything that happened in the previous scenario. There was no combat in your switch scenario and neither side took casualties

Do you have a save just before the switch scenario you can use then make a simple change to the switch scenario and see if the result changes?

Also, if you switch both ways do the Germans get 129 phantom points both ways ?

Does this switch scenario have only one V hex and did you pile all 21 into that one hex? It's been a while since I placed scenario V hexes but a common error is one left in the top left corner but you've done this many times so it's unlikely but the German side has been given 129 points and the 129 is even more suspicious because it's such an odd number

If you have a pre switch save try the switch again, do the same thing and see if the result is the same each time. If it does not change then try changing the switch scenario in some way then try again

The issue I have with this is if phantom points given to the AI in a campaign was common I would have expected to hear about it more than once in 2 decades

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

The result stays the same. I checked and there is no phantom objective in the corner. If I don't take the objective, the Germans get 830 points, so only 30 extra.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Thinking about it, the reason why the points are different in the previous scenario could be because parts of them came from AUX troops, whereas the switch scenario would only have the core casualties.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

It was a while ago, but I believe I meant that, for example, if rifle squad was worth 20pts and it was completely lost (KO status), it scored 20pts for AI player in scenario no 1. However, in scenario no 2, as this squad was not brought up from the dead and it remained as KO, it still seemed to be counted as additional 20pts for AI player... in scenario 2.

In other words - and what I reported back then - AI player was kinda getting free points for me simply not being able to replenish all losses, what in result depraved me of possibility of scoring good next scenario results.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Yeah I think he might be right, after trying around with the scores a bit. Probably the system parses the unit list at the end at each battle and the dead units still count as dead.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

OK..... the two of you are both at the centre of this and Andy and I are on the outside.

If both of you think you know how to recreate this, build a simple two-tiny game campaign that allows this issue to be shown repeatedly and that is something we can use to debug this

The game is nearly 13 million lines of code. We need something we can repeat to fix it in cases like this

I have never built a campaign and it's a little late in the release cycle to learn something new and you both know the exact circumstances that lead to discovering the problem.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Andy thinks he knows where the fix for this might be but we need a repeatable game or save that has it so we can check that the fix works

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

I will make something like that over the weekend.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

It does not need to be complicated. A couple of units with the type of damage that seems to be causing the problem and a save we can run that shows the AI points gain every time is all we need to zero in on it

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Done.
The campaign has the same scenario twice: it has two turns and the AI will hit the northern forest with heavy artillery on the starting turn. Put your core force there in the first scenario and outside the forest for the second one to test.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Got it. Thanks

I ASSUME you have tested it and it shows the points carry over?

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

OK did this

I put my core force in the northern forest in the first scenario ( twice) and let them be hit

This is the end screen for that battle

https://i.imgur.com/Uw5gIEg.png

NOTE IT SHOWS 8 casualties for that battle and a total of 8 for the campaign so far......and a total of 8 points for the AI

Then I put them at the bottom left of the map for the next... this is the end screen for that battle where they were not hit

https://i.imgur.com/mQvd6Jh.png

NOTE the number of casualties for that battle is zero and the total so far is 8 and also note the AI has 8 points total on both screens

From what I see here there is NOTHING wrong..... if you can get a different result post both turns and screenshots with detailed instructions on how we can duplicate it and do it real quick as this release is going out in a week or two with or without this "fixed".

I am not dragging this out for something I cannot prove is wrong in testing the example I was given to test that supposedly showed the problem


I ran the test a third time and this time there were 14 points and at the end there was still 14 points.....NO ACCUMULATION

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Another attempt to see something wrong that failed to show any problem

end of first battle

https://i.imgur.com/5tRwWZ5.png

end of second battle

https://i.imgur.com/wI1BSke.png

I don't see damage points accumulation.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

These pictures show the problem perfectly, the Soviets have 43 score in both screens, even though they inflicted 0 losses in the second battle. So they should have 0 score.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

???
43 is the SAME number of points they had after the first battle and that 43 is the TOTAL SCORE for both battles, not the score for that battle alone. The AI is not getting extra points

If they were that number would be higher than the 43 that was in the first screen. Accumulated points would show a number higher than 43

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Yes - if they were getting the points scored twice for carried over damages to enemy unfixed units then the total points would be 43+43=86, and not 43 (ie 0 points added to the first battle's score, so 43+0 = 43, which is what one wants to see there).

So, the game isn't crediting carried forward damage scores to any subsequent campaign battles.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Are you sure the "total score" is for the campaign? Pretty sure it is for the scenario only. The campaign scoring system is different, because it uses the victory level. You can see those points in the screen after that end screen.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

In fact, this can be easily proven: modify the campaign file to give yourself build points for battle 2. If you repair your core force, then have no losses in the second battle, the "total score" number is down to 0.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

There were 43 points credited after the first battle. There were NO points added and 43 is the total. We can keep repeating this but it is what it is, if there were accumulated points added that 43 would have been higher

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

NO.. YOU priove it but you have already convinced yourself that we are wrong but we are not wrong..... there are no NEW points added. If there were the total would be higher that it was after the first battle[/quote]

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Ok...

Let's prove it then.

https://youtu.be/2PXwDzSBdjA

Video might take a few minutes to get the full quality.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Andy and I will go over this. Something might be "off".... maybe..

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

If I don't replace the losses and fix the damage the AI gets two decisive victories..... when I spend points to fix my damaged units then keep them safe the next battle the AI gets one DV and one draw and that is not a better result for the AI

TOO much time in this chair staring at a computer screen. Andy and I will look at this tomorrow

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Maybe this got missed. It shows what the problem is.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Like everything else about this issue the "proof" comes late or is hastily thrown together at the last minute and is unusable



This "issue" has existed for at least a decade as we have made NO changes to campaign code in that long so finally getting "proof" of this in mid-April just as we were about to start final assembly to get both updates released is piss poor timing and what I posted above .....If I do not replace the losses and fix the damage the AI gets two decisive victories..... when I spend points to fix my damaged units and then keep them safe the next battle the AI gets one DV and one draw and that is not a better result for the AI

I will admit this does seem to point to a problem but not in the way it was originally presented

So fix this so we can at least look at this video but this SHOULD HAVE BEEN brought to our attention months ago not a week after the date we normally release updates

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Sorry, the video settings were wrong. I set it to "not listed" now, it should work.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

That is precisely the result I saw four times with variations in the number of casualties and you showed exactly the same results I reported... if the units are not fixed the AI gets two decisive victories but if the units are fixed it only gets one decisive and one draw .

That proved something is not quite right but it does not prove the AI is getting extra points and the draw result with the causalities replaced proves that.

Save some time if you do this again and turn fast arty on..

As I said, something seems to be wrong but what exactly that is is for now a mystery

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

We will continue to investigate....that's all I can say at this time. I think......maybe.... I see the full issue a bit clearer now

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

I think the question is: Should the AI, in the second round, where no casualties are dealt, receive any points? I would say no. This scenario only happens if the core force is completely repaired and up to strength. In that case, the points for the scenario are 0 for both armies, as nothing happened. Nothing got captured, nobody died.
The only reason why the AI gets points in the second scenario is because some of the player forces are understrength. Thus, the mistake must be there somewhere.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

The light finally came on and it was that the AI only got a draw when the units were rebuilt that did it.

No excuse. Should have figured it out as soon as I saw the draw the first time I tried it with the units rebuilt but for whatever reason it didn't........for now I am going to blame chronic lack of sleep but even that isn't good enough. I was thinking it was proving the opposite of what it was proving

Thanks for your example and your patience. We will endeavour to correct the problem. I have some ideas on WHY it may be happening when units are not fully rebuilt but they are conflicting ideas.... one will be correct it's unclear ATM which one.

EDIT

I won't be able to contact Andy for a few hours yet but ONE possibility ( just a theory ATM....it has been a LONG time since this was coded ) that there **May** be a chance that way back when this was coded that when a player allowed his units to be beaten up so badly they could all not be replenished, that those points from those units that could not be repaired were deliberately carried over as an added penalty to be an incentive to reckless players to keep their units from being beaten up too much......... maybe. This is something I need to run by Andy.

I know this sounds like an " It's not a bug it's a feature!" excuse but it's a possibility. RL commanders who let their forces be decimated don't ( normally..) stay commanders for long as recent events have shown

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

FWIW I have tested a similar mini-campaign with MBT and the exact same thing happens when units are not rebuilt.

But.... that code for a repair was not something we touched according to Andy

I am trying to test a small generated campaign to see if the same thing happens and if it does it's been like this since the original code was created


........and yeah that does sound like an "excuse" but it's why I am testing this deeper

EDIT....... spent a fair amount of time on this. The second battle showed no casualties and I didn't fix anything after the first but the points generated for the 21 v hexes throw everything out the window


So YES this *MAY* have been coded in from the start but the start did not start with Andy. He just used what the campaign code used but expanded it with the user campaign addition but the way campaigns were handled was the same as a normal generated campaign uses.

The problem is it's impossible to see this under normal circumstances where a few carry-over points are lost in the background "noise"

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

This has basically been there in campaigns since the very beginning in SP1 and MSDOS days.

If you leave things damaged, then you will get penalised for that. So "Pyrric" victories where your core gets smashed up and is having to wait for the next battles build/repair points will cost you.

It is not just a simple "check all core units pre-battle, tot up the points of damage, then deduct from the total at the battle end" sort of thing either to "fix" it since damaged units can appear on the map - and then be subsequently destroyed or re-damaged. What do we charge for a unit with 3 existing damage points, if killed?. Oh, and it would need a new variable for all units for "damage points carried forwards" in save games. What happens if the user leaves units damaged for a second, and then a third battle then?. Oh, and there is the minor point of the "kills totaliser" screen at the battle ending since that simply tots up men killed, units killed - and has no way to know "oh, unit X was actually killed 3 battles back, but not repaired, disregard it".

So - a "can of worms" to fix, if you think the damage should be simply ignored - as it cannot be easily so. the entire code is based on stuff damaged or killed being counted with no bookkeeping for any "carry forwards" damages.

Therefore - it stays the same, and the player will be penalised for "Pyrric" victories where the core is so badly beaten up that the granted repair points cannot fix them.

The player may want then to delete a very badly shot-up formation perhaps, if he cannot find the repair points. That may release some repair points to him for use. And that is the sort of thing a commander might well have to do in warfare.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

So if a campaign designer does not want that to happen or minimize it then they need to ensure there are at least some points for rebuilding......or players with few repair points need to be more cautious

The ONLY reason this was noticed after all this time was that "switch" battle that was not combat after a battle that had combat but units were not repaired but it does appear to have existed all along and why with V hex cost differences and normal battles involving casualties this was never noticed before and that took 8 hours of work to arrive at

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

Didnt want to open a new thread for this, but I have a question: Does the "assault" scenario type (with AI attacking) overwrite the "reaction" setting you can apply to a unit? It seems to me the AI goes "all in" and ignores those.

Re: Question about possible changes to campaign system
 

If you set up the scenario then make changes to the reaction turn the AI should adhere to them but I know sometimes the AI has a mind of it's own on that subject

Try some experiments. IF you are looking to keep the attacking AI from moving everything try setting it's reaction to a specific turn. Try one unit set to a specific turn and one set to 98.... 98 means the AI will never react in theory