Great game
 

Hello what a great game😀 The detail is amazing and I am really enjoying playing but still getting used to some stuff. So I put a whole lot of questions in here. So how long is a turn, When I play a Scenario as PBEM can I check the other players preferences, When I select between different planes the different exit and entry points dont update, sometimes I get a rough terrain warning sometimes I dont is that meant to be

Can I anyway limit how many of some things there are maybe like some german things that they only had 1 or 2 off. In a game can I put down some sort of marker like a waypoint to remember a place.

Re: Great game
 

Hello welcome aboard!
A quick stab at some answers for you:


1. From the Game Guide: "One game move (player 1 turn plus player 2 turn) represents roughly 3 minutes of 'real time'."
2. I don't believe so (but I am no PBEM expert) I don't think it makes any difference to the game as some settings have to be the same.
3.The aircraft entry and exit points are a little "quirky" and could possibly be improved. If you want multiple aircraft arriving on the same turn from different vectors then you will have to be carefull and change entry/exit before plotting each one and remember to change back if "adjusting the target point" later.
4.You get a rough terrain warning when rough overlaps a hill or other terrain that may cause the currently moving vehicle to become stuck - so no warning for "normal" rough, or infantry for example.
5.Limits should be discussed with your opponent. AI shouldnt be choosing the "wild and wacky stuff" due to rarity code (built into radio code in Mobhack)
6.No not currently - I dont think (note the co-ordinate of the grid hex on a piece of paper) - perhaps a good suggestion to make to the developers

Re: Great game
 

Hey good answers and good on you for helping me 😀 but sometimes a vehicle gets stuck on rough slope but I don't get the warning some inbuilt randomness maybe. I forget where I plotted the planes entry and exit and when I pick the plane in the artillery page I wanted the entry exit for that plane to show but it's just sort of random

Re: Great game
 

1) And in real life - as opposed to a game where you have total and utter command of your counter then its likely more like ten minutes or so. Real soldiers (people) arent little counters to move at lockstep, they will take far more time than some clipboard weilding "time and motion" analyst would scribble on that clipboard. They are scared and cautious so spend more time "hanging about making thier mind up", slip off for a crafty gigarette break, have to take a dump, or get themselves lost and have to retrace thier steps, you know all those "human" things that a Prussian drill instructor or time and motion guy wont take into account.

Radios dont make it much more controllable or faster - the net is full iof "Hello 4, this is 5, say again all after "advance", over.." whereas you as a "player-god" figure simply move your "robot" callsign #5 off to exactly where you desired, unless you misclick on the map of course (i.e. introduce some real human error!).

That is what Clausewitz is speaking about when he talks about the "friction" of war. There are real humans under peril of death involved, not robots, which the counters effectively are.

So - once a game is over, multiply the turns expended by the given value of 3 minutes for the "if it was robots" figure, and by ten(ish) minutes to get the "Clausewitz" time that it more likely would take in a real war to get to the end result with real humans. And maybe triple the time if the scenario had night or poor visibility involved!.

6) I have thought about allowing the player to label hexes, as you can in the scenario editor. It would need some way that the other player cannot read for PBEM. So not as simple as just simply allowing the map text scenario editor function to be reachable inside an ongoing game.

It would be useful for say, labelling a bit of smoke in the enemy back zone that is likely a mortar to deal with later because the guns are busy right now, and in 4 or 5 turns the smoke may have vanished.

Re: Great game
 

I guess random entry and exit points for aircraft strikes is like that because it's a tactical game, not an operational game, and it takes into account pilot initiative, as there is a lot of space to fly over getting to the battle field. There's a lot of randomness at the tactical scale.

Re: Great game
 

If you set your entry and exit points then that in and out direction will be used, except as it sets up entry on the target initially selected near the impact point, then it may shift the entry to line up. In other words, the impact point selected has a large part to play - and that gets rolled for if there is no target aquision near there on entry, which can shift the impact as for other arty, and again, the netry sector may then shift so the inwards path can actually point at the selected target hex.

The exit direction can move from the selected, if the above happens. And if the strike plane strafes stuff off the axis of flight, it can decide to fly straight onwards after weapons use. And if it finds nothing and beats up some empty ground - it decides where it wants to leave by.

The air farce is not part of the army, so you influence it but you do not command it.

Generally speaking, I dont bother with strike air - the points are better used on arty etc. If advancing or assaulting then air strikes are useful for spotting defenders though. WW2 air isnt a real tank killer. Modern stuff with long range missiles are a different kettle of fish!.

In an operational level game air would be vital since your airbases can be used to fly off to widely spaced battles, hit his supply nodes, airfields etc. In an SP battle, your arty is always in range.

Air power is an operational and not a tactical tool, but the designers probably put them in because "rule of cool" and end user expectations, see the Mustangs in Saving Private Ryan forex, and the popular perceptions of "cab rank" air "slaughtering" tigers in Normandy.

In reality it was the total destruction of the German supply column trucks and horse wagons that were the air "killer" effect - and that is operational so not this game's focus. Blow up the beans, bullets and fuel and the clockwork mice eventually run down and the troops get peckish and the rifle becomes a spear body for the bayonet.

The A10 therefore wasted weight on a humongous internal cannon, because its true target really was supply columns which a 20mm vulcan can service just fine and weigh less, or have more ammo supply for the same dead weight as the somewhat iffy 30mm AP ammo performance post the T-55 and T-62s. Long range tank plinking with guided missiles did not neet a ton of armour anyway. Yep, me is in the A10 is a silly idea camp:D! - Sturmovviks were moderately useful at the end of WW2, but not post war.

Re: Great game
 

Wow those are really good answers thank you very much for all your time😀
That's very great about all the tactics I don't know much about it but it's good to know now. That clever how the planes work but what I sort mean is in the artillery part there is some entry and exit arrows that you use to plan where the plane goes but in the next turn I pick the plane again then the artillery part has forgotten the arrows I picked first so if I forgot which arrows I picked I can't check which ones they were in the artillery screen

Re: Great game
 

In and out directions are taken as what they are currently set to when you plot the strike hex. Set those before you plot the target hex!

The entry and exit sides are a game global value, set to the default on each loading of the game from windows. If you change this then in the same game session, they will remain at the last used pair. Even if you play multiple saved scenarios. But once you exit the game to windows, when you reload they will be re-initialised to the defaults.

So - always check the first time (best any time you plot air reeally - open the in/out display screenlet) you want to plot air, to see what state the global values are currently set to. They don't follow individual save games around - they are game globals, not scenario local data. (Already plotted air strikes have the in and out and target x,y set in the scenarios local save data of course, so plotted strikes do follow any scenario saves and reloads).

Re: Great game
 

Thanks for the great reply you sure know a lot about the game😱

Ive been bingeplaying the scenarios and I wont tell you how much fun that was and I tried out the editor you mentioned thats a another really great idea. When I was in the editor I tried to put mines and obstacles in the sea but they dont go even in the shallow water so Im not sure if thats meant to be or I dont know something. Any way something happened then when I was trying to find out if it was me or the game I layed some mines and obstacles on the beach which cost me obstacle points but when I layed tranches on the beach that didnt cost me any obstacle points so I thought maybe I had found a bug because then when I removed the trenches I got more points back. I also saw that some landing craft can spot for artillery and some cant and after a while it is the 0 ones that can spot but I thought that no landing craft had radios I thought they were mostly like water trucks. I was doing all this in the editor in the omaha beach scenario. I dont mean to be critical but the trench thing was funny.

Re: Great game
 

1) I am one of the the programmer/developers, so yep, I might just know a thing or two:)

2) Mines can go in shallow water, maybe dragons teeth as well IIRC, but definately no defences in deep water. (Forget if shallow is only-1, may be -2 level, I dont design scenarios and havent played a beach assault in yonks)

3) landing craft (with radios?) that are 0 units (IIRC) do have the ability to spot. Otherwise, you cannot adjust or call for fire as you boat into land.

That was, again IIRC, one of the problems in the original DOS game that I changed the code for. (If you had say some helos (MBT, late WW2) or I think, warships, they could spot and call for fires in the original SSI DOS games - trying to think back 20+ years there!).

4) Trenches are a bit odd at times. The are part terrain tile and part defence obstacle (they can remove trees etc IIRC in the hex they are plotted into). Stick with using them away from water I would say, they can be useful as anti tank ditches (if you play with breakdowns on)

5) Water has always been a bugbear of the game from the start as to weird things that can happen. We have caught some and likely added new weirds as the years went by. It is the AI that has problems on maps with deeper warter, especially if it is not a properly designed river crossing or beach assault scenario, and especially with regards to path finding navigation.

Little offshore sandbanks may not confuse a human player of a beach assault scenario, but the AI will happly unload onto them, perhaps leaving some units twiddling their thumbs there...

A river crossing that has two rivers might look dead cool to the designer, and a human probably can handle that if he can get his barges alive to the second one, The AI wont as its stock behaviour is soley based on there being precisely one water obstacle - it will happily ferry units to the far bank of river #1, but simply wont have a clue what to do about river #2 (or some inland lake you added "just because" sitting behind river #1)...

Re: Great game
 

Oh wow so not a moderater a designer that makes this the best access game ever, I never heard of being able to talk to the designers in any game, thats really something. And what a great job you did with the game I cant beleive how much stuff is in it, really really good. Thanks.

And the scenarios are really good to I played already scenario 7 and put it in the editor to see if the trench problem is there as well. So if I do a Soviet Deploy in the editor I start with no mine points so I delete some mines and get 20 mines points I buy 5 mine and I now have 15 mines points left. I put in a long trench and I still have 15 mines points 🤔 I can put as many trenches in as I want now because they are free.😮 If I remove some of the trenches then I get even more points🤫 so I can cover the map all over with mines as well if I like.😳 Is that how it is meant to work. seems a bit strange to me

With the landing craft I just thought that if something didnt have a radio it couldnt call in artillery.

Re: Great game
 

Don (DRG) and I are the Camo Workshop, not some external moderators.

1) trenches can be weird, they are really for scenario designers. So in regualr battles just dont abuse them - I may look at the charging system, since t seems to be squiffy.

2) Landing craft were unable to call, even with radios, in the original SSI game. They did need fixing, and we did that when we eventually recieved the game code from SSI back when our games were MSDOS still (ie before the win versions of WW2 and MBT).

Re: Great game
 

Which scenario were you making those changes to?

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NEVERMIND......... I have it figured out. The "bug" is common to both games.

Points are not being deducted for trenches when they are laid but they are being returned when a section of trench is deleted

That will be one single bit of code and will be corrected for the next release.

Good catch :up:

Sometimes it takes a fresh set of eyes to spot something like that.

Re: Great game
 

Oh Ok there must be a lot of history I dont know but I really like this game it must heve every weapon of every army in it awesome. Ok so both desingers are here in the forum and talking even better havent seen that anywhere else and it great to meet you and scropiorocks too:)
Im still learning the obstacles and how the game plays. sometimes I see in the movies that its really hard to kill people in a trench or even a foxhole with a tank because you have to get the right angle. Sometimes I see the tanks just keep their heads down and pass by looking for artillery and HQs and stores. In the game its easy to kill the entrenched people. I though maybe it would be nice if pinned people in trenchs or the foxholes cant be killed at all or maybe much harder than it is now. I saw also people move slower in the trnches but really they would go faster.

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I think it's pretty hard to kill entrenched defenders unless you assault them or use extra powerful munitions, which is realistic in my opinion. It also depends on the year your fighting in, as certain types of weapon systems haven't been invented yet.

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Hi Dion that's good information close assault and extra powerful munitions are different I'm thinking shooting from a distance does pinned mean they are lying on there bellies, not sure if it is then pinned in a trench would make it impossible to kill anyone further until they stand up again, from a distance

Also do you think it would it be good to move normal speed in trenches

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Their suppression level is important. If they are pinned and highly suppressed and you can get your troops one hex away you get to-hit bonus that almost always pays big dividends

I know its tiresome to be told to RTFM and I know it's long and involved but there is good info on game play there.......


Open the game guide and press CTRL+F and search for suppression.... there are 40 entries and they all provide info

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I dont use z-fire much, but in my experience one of the most important tools for infantry combat in this engine is smoke, because it allows you to segregate enemy units and concentrate on them one at a time, while making sure that your own units are engaged by as few enemies at the same time as possible.

Re: Great game
 

Yep. Smoke has many uses in the game

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I believe being pinned simply means, the unit is more interested in looking for cover than fighting. Pinned units receive a defensive bonus and penalized offensively when firing. In a trench, some soldiers in a pinned unit would still be able to be hit, because some may look over the edge even when told not to (some soldiers are more disciplined than others or more "foolhardy" than others). Some of the soldiers in a pinned unit may not be effected at all and remain viable targets, but their unit would lose cohesion and team work, thus that's why their unit receives offensive penalties when pinned. Some would be able to find more effective cover than others, even in a trench.

As far as movement goes in a trench, I don't think the unit's speed matters, as long as you go from trench hex to trench hex, staying in the same trench as you go.

Hope this helps.

Re: Great game
 

Hey Thanks Everyone for all the info about how to play I read the help already at work dont tell anyone I got not too bad idea so far maybe even pbem one day. I am trying to say not about tactics but that in a trench its like being on a road but the people can only go one hex at a time would it be better if the people went 3 hexes at a time or even 6 hexes at a time when in a trench. I mean they can have good level bottoms and they are deep enough to run standing up and dont need to look around or be careful no one can shoot you down there.

For pinning in a trench if the people decide to just be sensible and lie in the bottom of the trench out of sight until the tanks go by they cant do that even the elite veterans. The tanks can always shoot at them like they are showing themselves. It doesnt take long to kill them all if it took 10 times longer to kill them all that would be better but also if they stopped taking kills altogether if pinned or retreating in a trench I think that also would be realistic. But not if the unit is next to them though and infantry. Maybe a tank would need to be in the same hex as them to kill them when they are lying in the bottom.

I think kill rate in rough terrain or buildings is not much different to being in a trench I think it would be good if it was much less killed in a trench because you are sort of underground much better protected than in a house or behind something.

Yes this helps a lot

Re: Great game
 

You said before I could put defences in shallow water but I can't work out how to do that can someone fill me in on how to do that.

Re: Great game
 

Andy misspoke.

We have discussed adding this to the game on and off for years and that may have been why he said that. Right now you cannot lay defences like mines, DT etc in any terrain that is -1 height......which is shallow water

However you CAN put down Mines, DT's and wire in swamps which are a -2 terrain height

So...... NO Mines, DT's and wire in -1 ( shallow ) and -3 (deep ) water terrain but you can put them in -2 swamp terrain

Game quirk. Water is -1 and -3 and swamp is -2

BUT the terrain must report it being swamp for that to work. Another game quirk is if you put a swamp where water already exists it will show being swamp on the map but report and act like it is deep water.......so only edit swamp into a map over existing land terrain unless you want to recreate the Sargasso Sea.....

Bottom line........ EXPERIMENT

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Strange - I thought so, but it has been 10+ years since I looked at that stuff.

Posibly the reason may be that there are no swimming engineer things, so a water hex with a mine or DT etc - could not ever be cleared. Certainly not by the AI and so those would be impassable hexes and cause hiccups. So not a good thing(tm) really.

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if in shallow water, an engineer could remove them because infantry ( and vehicles ) can move in shallow water.
That said I think the only thing I would want to be allowed to be placed in shallow water would be Dragons teeth and even that I am on the fence about

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Wow what a lot of tricky stuff is in this game. This game will keep me busy for a long time. I guess no-one is interested in my idea that people can move 3 hexes instead of 1 in trenches and can hide in them until the tanks go by, they were pretty deep.

Re: Great game
 

I believe you can move at any rate up to the unit's movement points, but you have to move from trench hex to trench hex within the same trench, otherwise their not considered to be in the trench anymore. I believe only infantry type units can take advantage of trenches, not vehicles; cavalry I'm not sure about.

Tanks spotting infantry is pretty much dependent on the terrain and the spotting range. It also depends on if the infantry is dug in or not, if the tank is buttoned, if some of the tank's crew has been eliminated, if the infantry fires at the tank, or if the infantry is firing a lot at other targets.

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Can you really move your guys 3 hexes in a trench I can't do it only 1 hex maybe there is something wrong on my computer and I should reinstall the game again. Yeah I understand about the spotting. How about this for a idea when the people in the trench use the cover button they always dissapear without fail because that would in real life mean they are lying in the bottom of the trench, same as if they had gone to ground by being pinned

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It really doesn't matter if the enemy can see you in a trench, because hardly anyone ever gets killed in a trench and most only receive suppression or become pinned, and being pinned in a trench is hardly any different than being non-pinned in a trench.

Also, units "heal" a lot of suppression when in a trench, and being pinned in a trench usually lasts only 1/2 a turn. Many times, I will fire at a unit in trench a hundred times, they receive suppression and become pinned as normal then they are returned back to an unsuppressed state in their half of the turn, so by the time it's my turn again their back to normal. You either have to wait for them to collect a lot of suppression and run after waiting for about half the game, assault them with high explosives, or use high caliber artillery.

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Units in a trench may run away from known nearby enemy (say within 2-3 hexes) at thier turn end if the formation morale breaks - but usually they will just cower there. Trenches are safe spaces!

If you want an enemy infantry unit to immediately skeddadle from a dug in position (or rocks, shell holes etc) - then suppress it till it cannot reply to an approaching unit nearby that you don't fire (so it has its full MP remaining) then move that up when the enemy is thoroughly neutralised* and shoot it in the face from 50M. If your approaching unit does take fire - rally it before firing so it is more effective, and less likely to panic fire effects.

You want the enemy unit to retreat 1 hex out of the cover, so it becomes a normal unit out in the open. Once in the open, it loses the morale benefits of the trench and is subsequently dealt with normally.

Of course, the unit you try to move up to blast him at point blank range may well find a previously hidden enemy. Or you move a vehicle up to do the 1 hex hose-down and then find an RPG team nearby that has an opinion on the matter. But that is war...

*Neutralised. Unable to reply effectively - either its so badly pinned that it does not even attempt shoot the approaching unit, or if it does, has little chance of making a hit. Or better yet, it is already in retreat or rout status from the fire of your units that are "shooting in" the approaching unit - which you can see if you hover the mouse over it in the game.

Re: Great game
 

Hey thank you for your answer but I still can't get people to move more than one hex in a trench can you tell me what I'm doing wrong
:confused:

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Lets go back a step.

WHICH POST says you can move 3 hexes ?...... Quote the post number and the line. YOU are the only one mentioning units moving three hexes in a trench

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My bad:doh:I will put more thinking into my posting. Dion in post #28 says you can move normal movement in trenches as long as you stay in the trench. But I can only get one hex at a time. I thought it would be a good idea if people could move 6 hexes in a trench because at the bottom they are smooth and you don't have to crouch down. The other thing I said was I thought it would be good if people could take no kills when they are pinned or maybe retreating in a trench because they would be lying in the bottom out of sight. I said that because I like the idea that infantry can hide in trenches and foxholes until the tanks go away but now you can always kill all the troops in a trench from even a long way away.

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Watch some of the combat footage from Ukrainian, the fighting in the trenches is slow, bloody, and brutal and the same as in WW1. There is no fast moving in trenches.

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Keep in mind this is a trench and each segment of it is 50 meters long which isn't that much when you are walking down your driveway on a nice sunny day but the trench will not be straight, it may have water in it making movement slower and in reality there may be twists and turns in it that don't show in the game. Now pack troops into it and you want them to move. It's not going to happen like it would out in the open. Thne factor in they may have to move past other troops that are not under orders to move or obstructions like ammo boxes etc

In the clear movement for infantry is 3. Three is too much. We had the choice of allowing 2 hexes of movement or one. We choose one

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Hi Jovs66 I mean moving in trenches not fighting in trenches. Hi DRG yes water but duckboards as well and sometimes they would be dry. I think the fire steps and nooks dug to keep out of the rain give a spot for people to get out of the way. Doesnt the game already have a movememt penalty for going in the same hex as other people or ammunition dumps, but anyway even with just one squad in the trenches with noone to get past they can still only go one hex. Yes they are zig zag but I think when they make them they think about building them for moving troops around quicky because there would often be a need to do that like when they take out all the people in them for rest and put in new ones. Didnt they also go into underground hidy holes when they were shelled and had to quickly get back to the MGs as soon as the shelling stopped. Or maybe even harder they took the MGs with them and had to get them back to the firing place quick. Then they need to bring up ammunition to the MGs quick as well. Communication trenches I think are straighter and clear and are for moving people quickly. I just saw that impassable is one hex per turn so in a trench I thought maybe it could be quicker than that because you can run around in them single file and no one can shoot at you.