Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Well am I blind or what but I don't find any other vehicles for BMP Rifle Co than M113G4DK:confused:... Where are BMP's? BTR Rifle Co has many other vehicles to choose (it's OK).

Warhero

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Ukraine OOB - Formation #112 BMP Rifle Co uses class 25 APC (Track) vehicles

from Mobhack:
Searching for Units of class 25 APC (Track)
329 - BWP-1 - Available 04/122 to 12/125
330 - Pbv 501 - Available 04/122 to 12/125
331 - BMP-1U SLAT - Available 01/114 to 12/125
332 - MT-LB - Available 08/091 to 12/125
333 - BMP-1U Shkval - Available 01/109 to 12/125
334 - BMP-1B - Available 08/091 to 12/105
335 - BMP-2 - Available 08/091 to 12/091
336 - BMP-2 - Available 01/092 to 12/115
337 - BMP-2D - Available 01/095 to 12/115
338 - BMP-2K - Available 01/100 to 12/115
340 - BMP-3 - Available 08/091 to 12/096
341 - BMP-3 - Available 01/097 to 12/115
342 - BMP-3 - Available 01/116 to 12/125
345 - BMP-2 - Available 01/116 to 12/125
346 - BMP-2D - Available 01/116 to 12/125
347 - BMP-2K - Available 01/116 to 12/125
348 - Marder 1A3 - Available 04/123 to 12/125
349 - Marder 1 A3+ - Available 04/123 to 12/125
350 - M113A3 - Available 06/122 to 12/125
720 - YPR-765 - Available 05/122 to 12/125
724 - M113AS4 - Available 09/122 to 12/125
725 - M113G4DK - Available 09/122 to 12/125
727 - CV9040 - Available 04/123 to 12/125
729 - FV432 Bulldog - Available 04/123 to 12/125
794 - MT-LBM-6MA(C) - Available 08/122 to 12/125 *has X3 Radio Code*

Probably more options than any other OOB...

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Ukraine had only 4 bmp3 in service at the start of the war. Its only real apc was the m113.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

FOR EVERYONE

If anyone asks a question like that the formation number and the year and month need to be included so we can check the same formation you are commenting on

For that formation ( 112) with the date set to August 2023 I see this on page two of the selection screen
https://i.imgur.com/QOjH4ag.png

so there is an abundant number of choices beyond M113G4DK. The fact that some might be very rare is irrelevant

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Moved the thread to the correct sub-forum

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Hmm I don't have that number (112) as seen in screenshot at all in my SPMBT. I installed latest update some weeks ago. Do I have to re-install it again?

Warhero

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Hey, I found reason! I didn't noticed that "Next" button under the screen:D. Ok problem solved:D. Sorry wrong "alert".

Warhero

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Start the game using Gameoptions ( the game should always be started using game options )

GOTO the MIC tab at the top of the screen and select " Show ID numbers" and set that to ON and you will see this for units and formations when you are purchasing

https://i.imgur.com/N6kb171.png

https://i.imgur.com/tWz3nsZ.png


From the Game guide

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Ukraine has too many options, most of the equipment they have is just starting to get operational.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

And the UKR OOB data was all entered over the last year when we only had general reports of what was being supplied. Once (if) we have reliable documented in service dates in the future, the OOB will be updated to reflect that. So perhaps next March or thereabouts, some data may change,

Meanwhile if you don't like the choices we made with what publically available data there was available then there is the Mobhack OOB editor made available with the game so you can edit your own personal "take" on the data, should you so wish.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Well then you should have no trouble providing hard data with sources we can cross-check to support your idea

If we don't include something we get complaints..... we get them when we do put in rare types too. Everything in there was put in because info existed that supported adding it even if there were only a handful in a shop somewhere that does not mean they were not used

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Sources are unclear what is happening. So far they used a handful of Bradley, leopard etc in combat all of which were lost to mines and its not clear what operational capacity they have.

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukraine-wi...tance-package/

That was in January, if training takes a reasonable amount of time then maybe they will be ready in 2024?

The timelines given for training on everything are very brief. I heard that they are supposed to be operating f 16s right now and other reports say 2025.

For "long campaign" purposes having large Bradley and Abrams forces in Ukraine seems like a 2024-25 thing, all they have seen so far is some minefield losses.

Just as a comparison, in North Africa rommel had 5 Stugs out of thousands of tanks. Nobody includes the Stug in Africa campaign scenarios because they were less than 1% of the force.

We can have a policy where a unit has to be at least 1% of the active forces of an army for it to be in the game, or have seen meaningful combat experience, so we're not including all the minor equipment and prototypes as is the normal practice with any OOB.

https://www.army-technology.com/news...rmany/?cf-view

Using the marder as an example, they received 20 in March and the article implies 10 per month starting in July. Considering Ukraine has thousands of infantry vehicles the marders may not make up 1% the force even now. Buying two "mechanized rifle co" of marders is more than their entire army has.

Then the British and other IFVs might be even less.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

simple DON'T BUY THEM IF YOU THINK DOING SO UPSETS WHATEVER YOU THINK IS "CORRECT"

They are in the OOB because they are in country and in many cases more rare vehicles are given a rare rating for the AI but the human player can decide on his own if he wants them or not......it's call " free choice"

Since you know so much about the percentages it will be easy for you to do so

The game is set up so the people who care about minutia like " is there enough of these to even make up a platoon ?" can decide what to buy and those that don't can just play the game and if they use too much of something that is rare it's a "what if" battle because 99% are "what if " anyway.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Question I have is how much of the "rare" number percentage stuff does the AI pick once it starts picking from that stuff?

I am tracking that players can freely choose to pick what they want or don't want or mod the OOB to remove things they don't want in there.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

How the AI picks things can be convoluted and depends on if they are rare ( radio code ending in 1 ) or common ( radio code ending in 2 ) or radio code ending in zero which is more or less " average

BUT

The AI tends to pick from the bottom of the list up and there are randoms built into everything in the game to stop it from being predictable but does seem if the AI finds too many rare units in a row it can sometimes just decide to pick one anyway and in the Ukraine OOB for example, the "western" armour is generally near the end of the list and the Russian origin units are more near the front

BUT

The picker may go all the way up one time then work it's way down or it may pick from the bottom of the list. We sometimes have had to make things rare near the end of the list just to keep the AI from buying it too often

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

If we apply this logic consistently that 10-20 vehicles of a type is enough to count as a real amount then this would change a lot of OOB.

Israel has Pereh ATGM. America has the BAe Nyala and a bunch of minor foreign vehicles. When you get into ammo types there's arguably a lot of different stuff that isn't represented. STAFF rounds, tungsten vs steel projectiles, etc.

But I understand if in this one case it's okay for Ukraine to have marders, which to my awareness it has not used.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Forbes reports they have as part of the 82nd Brigade. Your 10-20 min vehicle idea is not going to be applied

Nothing is going to change in the OOB unless someone proves without a doubt that the vehicle was never in Ukraine and that kind of info might take a while to come to light.

In the meantime don't use it if you don't think you should

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Understood. The one thing I would add to the OOB is the large partisan and irregular forces on both sides, if you have to add anything to the OOB it would be the irregular forces first.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

They are really only of use in scenarios and they can easily be created by the scenario designer from existing units in either the main two OOB's or the Red or Green OOB. Both Red and Green have "rebel" formations that can be used for that renamed

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Got it. I agree that the OOBs should just contain tanks and primary combat forces, I'm just saying that if someone insists on there being "not enough units" then you can just tell them that.

The real case where this would be an issue is if America goes to war with Mexico like Republicans are asking. Huge variety of technicals and nonstandard equipment. How would you model a Mexican cartel? It's not even a green OOB, it would be more like a Somalia or Mujahideen OOB.

Point is there needs to be a threshold of how many units something has for it to be included in an OOB, adding things that aren't yet operationally capable like Ukraine APCs is stretching it.

The Sherman E8 is a technical. Already in SP1 the units were vaguely defined. Jumbo Sherman's were built one off when the factory decided to add armor to a tank, it's not a specific model.

Likewise Ukraine apparently has a upgraded Bradley that takes 122mm hits. This kind or stuff has to be decided case by case and its best to just leave the OOB as it is which is already very generous and just say you only include MBTs and important vehicles.

And if someone decides to build a Mexican drug war scenario or other irregular conflicts I don't think the OOB should be changed, the game already has enough units that can represent whatever there is going to be. If any OOB is missing anything it's going to be partisan infantry and stuff that isn't supposed to be there, all the important equipment is already there, actually too much of it.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

:rolleyes:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...ukrainian.html

52 M2A2 Bradley ODS-SA: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3 and 4, destroyed) (5, destroyed) (6, destroyed) (7, 8, 9 and 10, destroyed) (11, destroyed) (12, destroyed) (13, destroyed) (14, destroyed) (15, destroyed) (16, destroyed) (17, destroyed) (18, destroyed) (19, destroyed) (20, destroyed) (21, destroyed) (22, destroyed) (23, destroyed) (24, destroyed) (25, destroyed) (26, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, 4, and 5, damaged) (6, damaged) (7, damaged) (8 and 9, damaged) (10, damaged) (11, damaged) (12, damaged) (13 and 14, damaged) (15 and 16, damaged) (17, damaged) (18, damaged) (19, damaged) (20, damaged) (21, damaged) (1, 2 and 3, damaged and abandoned) (4, damaged and abandoned) (5, damaged and abandoned)

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

From Oryx:

Delivered/Pledged
40 AMX-10 RC(R)s [Delivered from March 2023 onwards]

Losses
4 AMX-10 RC(R): (1, destroyed) (1 and 2, abandoned) (1, captured)

10% of the AMX-10 fleet has been heavily damaged so far, with one of them ending up in Patriot Park in Moscow.

==================

Delivered/Pledged
14 Leopard 2A4s [February 2023 and March 2023]
10 Leopard 2A4s [April and June 2023]
8 Leopard 2A4s [March 2023]
8 Leopard 2A4s [March 2023]
40 x Leo 2A4 Total

18 Leopard 2A6s [March 2023]
3 Leopard 2A6s [March 2023]
21 x Leo 2A6 Total

Losses
6 Leopard 2A4: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, damaged) (4, damaged)

9 Leopard 2A6: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, damaged) (1, damaged and abandoned) (2, damaged and abandoned) (3, damaged and abandoned)

So let's recap....15% of the Leopard 2A4s in AFU have been damaged in some way, as well as 42% of Leopard 2A6s.

"Limited use" :rolleyes:

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

As for Marders; they literally only just started seeing action since 8/20 or so; so the bean counters have yet to catch up with them.

https://twitter.com/Ukraina8648545/s...19667547590687

German-made Marder 1A3 tank, in service with the 82nd Assault Brigade of Ukraine. The brigade recently entered the Ukrainian counter-offensive in the Zaporizhzhia region.

https://twitter.com/Military_oO/stat...84373192139088

German Marder 1A3 infantry fighting vehicle stuck in trench and abandoned

BTW, apparently the 82nd BDE has Challenger 2s, so we should see Challenger II in action "soon".

https://twitter.com/ChallengerInUA/s...53594440216768

The 82nd Air Assault Brigade of Ukraine, according to reports, has overcome the first anti-tank obstacles of the most heavily fortified Russian defense line. The 82nd operates all of Ukraine's Challenger 2 main battle tanks. No vids as yet!

But it's "coming", because Ukrainian propaganda is starting to HYPE the chally 2.

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/...23706356408351

The 🇬🇧British Challenger 2 tank in service with the Airborne Assault Forces of the Armed Forces of 🇺🇦Ukraine in combat conditions and its advantages

💭 The accuracy of a British tank shot is comparable to a sniper rifle. If there were more such armored vehicles, we would be able to achieve a greater effect in the battle with the enemy, - notes the Ukrainian tanker.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Speaking of Abrams -- I think we're getting VERY close to them in Ukraine -- Late September, early October from the two datapoints:

Datapoint #1

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-sen...es-2023-09-01/

WASHINGTON, Sept 1 (Reuters) - The Biden administration will for the first time send controversial armor-piercing munitions containing depleted uranium to Ukraine, according to a document seen by Reuters and separately confirmed by two U.S. officials.

The rounds, which could help destroy Russian tanks, are part of a new military aid package for Ukraine set to be unveiled in the next week. The munitions can be fired from U.S. Abrams tanks that, according to a person familiar with the matter, are expected be delivered to Ukraine in the coming weeks.

Datapoint #2:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...plete-training

According to a report from Politico yesterday, citing information from spokesperson Col. Martin O’Donnell, around 200 Ukrainian Armed Forces personnel have undergone training at different U.S. Army facilities in Germany. The report added that these soldiers “recently completed one of the last phases of the program, a combined arms, battalion force-on-force exercise at Hohenfels Training Area.”

...

Quoting an unnamed Pentagon official and “another person familiar with the discussions,” Politico now reports that the first 10 of these tanks will arrive in Ukraine in mid-September.

The same Pentagon official said that this batch of tanks was now “undergoing final refurbishments,” after which they can be dispatched to Ukraine, with the remaining 21 examples of the Abrams also due to arrive in-country during the fall.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

New icons for next year :p

https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/sta...12191499845632
British-delivered Challenger 2 tank in service of the Ukrainian military with metal cope cage established on the turret for protection against Russian UAVs/loitering munitions.

https://twitter.com/lost_warinua/sta...49555881283601
T-72B3 with ERA laden Cope Cage

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/statu...123316/photo/1
M109L SPH with the biggest cope cage I've seen yet.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Being abandoned does not prove it was originally operational, almost the opposite.

Anyway as I already said people are free to construct their own scenarios as they wish, I just wouldn't consider it realistic to have major Ukrainian tank and apc forces.

And my other point is that it's a tank game. Infantry shouldn't even be in the game. Although I understand it has to be, the focus of the game is on tanks.

Ukraine right now is a red green "buy everything" oob. The only oobs that exist in real life are red and green. Western forces vs eastern forces. These are Afghanistan, Kurds, Syria, all the obscure factions that have imported equipment. This is the only way things can work.

Not to be political but Ukraine isn't a real country. It was not included in the original country because it's just a pass through for other countries to dump equipment on. Having Ukraine as an OOB just ends up being a "buy everything" OOB, just like the Taliban or vietnam is a "buy everything" OOB, because of captured equipment. Wherever the war is happening becomes the "buy everything" OOB which is why I suggested, if you want Ukraine to mean anything, you stick to equipment it actually has.

And yes, the Bradley has seen limited use, according to your own sources most of them were abandoned.

There are two possible directions to go with the Ukraine OOB. Either limit it to equipment it has in large numbers or that it made itself (to my awareness it hasn't made any significant weapons), or just get rid of the Ukraine OOB and make it the "buy everything" OOB. The direction the game is heading now is to just make Ukraine the red-green "buy everything" flag because if a country has a major war and lots of equipment is captured AND you count every minor thing used 10 times as a unit, you just end up with everything.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

The third option, which is the one we are going with, is it stays as is and we ignore your "suggestions"

You blew any credibility you had out the window with "it's a tank game. Infantry shouldn't even be in the game" even with your additional comment "Although I understand it has to be, the focus of the game is on tanks."

No, it's a "combined arms" game as we state right at the start of the game guide.........

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

That is fine. I don't need to debate that.

The more fundamental issue is that Ukraine just becomes the red-green (yellow?) "Buy everything" country.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Yes, so what ?
Lots of nations have a mix of vehicle origins though right now Ukraine is the king of the hill for that but that's they way it worked out and we are not going to ignore it

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

NOPE...... for one unless the turret detail is very simple and there is NO CAMO applied putting a cage on top just makes it look a mess generally


EDIT start
https://i.imgur.com/byBy8rN.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/sckGC8L.png

It does a fair representation of it but making it more realistic with the cage spacing just makes it look worse in the game once you put it into terrain

EDIT end

I'm surprised the Ukrainians are doing that as the Russians found out at the start it's not very effective

The last photo of the M109 it may offer some protection but it might be more useful for camouflage. The POINT of SP arty is 1/ the ability to follow mobile forces forward and 2/ to be able to shoot and scoot........ not a lot of scooting when you are locked in a cage but that one may be fully open at the front... hard to tell for sure

The Ukrainians have shown they can adapt and improvise

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

OK, but even then we might end up in a situation where Ukraine has literally no Bradley left.

Ukraine started with 100 Bradley's in March. It lost 50-60 in 6 months. At this rate it will have 0 Bradley's in February unless restocked.

Is there any accounting for a country that had equipment and then lost it? I haven't seen any legislation to replace the losses, they are getting a mix of other vehicles but they seem to be heading to 0 Bradley soon.

They are of course capturing abandoned Russian equipment which is the source of their growth.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

You have your opinion and we have ours.

As mentioned earlier - if you really think you are the expert here, you can edit your own OOB with Mobhack for your own use. You can even post that in the Mods forum to see if anyone else agrees with you.

Meanwhile, we will stick to what is being reported via reliable sources. The UKR OOB may well change by next Spring, from further info supplied by these sources. Maybe those will match your opinions as expressed here, but most likely not.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

I'm fine with that. I'm just not surprised if Ukraine ends up losing equipment it now has zero of.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

52 M2A2 ODS Bradleys lost/damaged/abandoned is a lot more than a "handful" in contact. The original tranche of Bradleys which was announced in January 2023 was for 109 M2A2-ODS-SA and 4 Bradley-FIST variants.

:confused: Very confused right now.

https://twitter.com/AlexRaptor94/sta...27249921741202

that's a lot of Leopard 2's in AFU service.

Of course they are. They're buying anything that can be reasonably delivered with full technical support packages.

:confused:

1.) In 2005-2006 Ukraine had 3,784 MBTs, 3,043 AIFVs, 8,492 APCs, 1,143 Towed Guns, 1,298 SP Guns, and 200+ Mi-24 HINDs, along with 40 x Mi-6 HOOK and 300+ Mi-8 HIP transport helicopters, as well as 400~ mobile tactical SAM systems and 400+ combat aircraft of all types, plus 800+ strategic heavy SAM systems.

2.) In the original SP2 and SP3 days in the late 1990s; a good number of scenarios made involved Ukraine; as it was a potential fUSSR flashpoint.

Ergo, it made sense for Ukraine to be included in SP:MBT when it was being developed into WinSPMBT.

The US has officially pledged up to 186 M2 Bradleys; unofficially, now that the AFU has established units of the type as well as a spare parts line; they have an unlimited credit line on US Bradleys.

It makes no difference if AFU loses 50, 100 or all 186 M2s pledged, as the US will simply pull more M2s and refurbish them as needed to keep AFU "topped up". This isn't possible with the European NATO stockpiles; as due to the CFE treaty, everything in Europe over a certain limit had to be destroyed, so there's no huge stockpile of Leopard 1s or 2s left over from 1992 the way there is with US Abrams and Bradleys.

Only the US and Russia were able to "cheat" by moving their stockpiles out of the "European" zone.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Your source does not say they were damaged in combat. Many, maybe 90% of vehicles historically are lost in accidents or other problems outside of combat.

I am fine with including the leopard 2a4 because Ukraine has no other tanks. It's soviet tanks are mostly obsolete. The 2a4 is the only tank it really has.

The 2a6 and other tanks are not available in number.

It undermines the concept of what an OOB is, you might as well include everything because Ukraine can refurbish a IS2 and call it operational.

That is fine if you include the huge t55 and bmp 1 fleet of obsolete vehicles but I am just talking about their modern equipment.

I do not think Ukraine has anywhere near an unlimited credit line, and that is the real issue here. If 2024 comes around and they aren't receiving more equipment then the underwhelming US support for Ukraine will be more obvious. We will wait and see.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Isn't this image from around April/May?

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

April in a training accident and it's old news now

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Arguably a lot of the losses in Ukraine are training mistakes.

https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/202...=70&width=1440

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

An example of equipment Ukraine had in the past and now lost.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...lI_KklfZe08Db6

The article implies Ukraine has no real TB2 force anymore. Therefore, if we had them in the game, we would adjust the OOB accordingly.

Countries can have weapons in the past and lose them, and if we get a similar report for other equipment we can consider it.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

We do........

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

I know that you remove equipment when it's not available. I was just confirming the level of evidence.

So far although we don't have the same confirmation for marders. If we get a statement resembling them all being lost or unavailable in the winter counteroffensive then that would be good evidence.

For bradleys they already aren't in the OOB and that can remain until we get some kind of evidence they are used after the aforementioned instance.

For the 2A4 Ukraine can keep them, although right now they are being upgraded with Kontakt ERA so they aren't necessarily operational at the moment.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

The Bradleys aren't in the OOB? Are you blind?
Unit 721.
Formations 292 and 293.

Thanks for the "advice" but we'll continue on as we always have without it

Any adjustments to start date will be made before the next release. What's in there now was based on the best info we had at the start of the year.

Don't like it ? I don't care. That's what MoBHacks for

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

I didn't mean to be hostile.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Challenger II is now in combat.

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/s...74142957752322

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

LMAO.

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/s...83877562499214

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/s...66467379437763

Bayraktars are back blowing stuff up.

Seems like the AFU just pulled them back for a while from the frontlines to let Russian ADA degrade enough to make it worthwhile to use again.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Also first Bradley FIST video -- they got something like 7 or so BFISTs out of 125 Bradleys

https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/sta...55065177788680

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Kherson is considered non combat. Also, there are no missiles fired which is strange.

As it happens there's only one video of a bradley firing its weapons, I'm not sure if the FISTV are fully armed either.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Really ? The boat exploding wasn't enough for you ?


So because only one video shows a bradley firing its weapons you are not sure if the FISTV are fully armed ?

You have no evidence they are not but you are doing a fine job of making the prophecy you made at the start of your latest posting cycle become a reality,,,,,,,


https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=53019


Nothing says TROLL like a comment like that

Take the hint.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...
 

Something else to add to the OOB......


https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...y-quarterbacks