Trench project
 

Here's a little project for anyone interested in helping solve a mystery

set up a defensive game
buy 20 points worth of Mines/DT/Trenches/BW x5

That will allow you to 10 of those

Lay trenches
Delete sections and re- lay them again
Do that a number of times
Keep track of how many of them you have laid and how many points you have left
Try clicking on hexes using the trench button after your points are zero

Report any weirdness or if you didn't see any weirdness

Re: Trench project
 

Don, I set up a game as you described and observed the following:

- When removing the trenches, one trench element remained and I wasn't able to remove it

- The build points didn't fully increase, it stopped at 19

- When laying again I was able to lay one, sometimes two, trenches more than should be (with build points at zero that is)

If you need more detailed info or specific setup, or savegame file, etc., let me know. ;)

I am not sure though, whether the left over trenches are treated as such, or are just graphic glitches, like the green junk.

I attached two image files, but they are quite ugly, because of upload filesize limits... :o

Re: Trench project
 

What we have found is this issue morphs depending on who is doing it and when. I found an email I made to Andy last summer showing it but I CANNOT recreate it now following the steps I detailed

We have seen the "one left behind" issue. I found laying more trench over it then deleting that trench *usually* gets rid of it but not always and I have seen one point allow many hexes of trench to be laid but that was months ago and I cannot get the same thing now but I have managed to get trenches that show on the map as trenches but do not report as being trench

Andy is looking into it but it is looking like this might remain a weird little game quirk for all time but it DOES haves it's uses.... if you are on defence......which you would be if you are playing with trenches you can use them to clear lanes of fire by laying them then deleting them......which pioneers do with chainsaws and bulldozers in RL so ITS NOT A BUG......ITS A FEATURE:D

RE screenshots--------- set up an account with Imgur and you can post good-quality screenshots

https://imgur.com/

THANK YOU for putting in the effort to test this for us.

Re: Trench project
 

I tried it and had the same thing happen. Only got 19 points back after removing the trenches.

Re: Trench project
 

What that makes me think of is a "count from zero" vs. a "count from one" issue.

BOTH ways are used in this code because it had already evolved from other older code long before we ever saw it

Re: Trench project
 

Was a field ( any kind ) involved with your test ?

Re: Trench project
 

Yes.

Re: Trench project
 

Andy noticed some of the odd behaviour appeared to be connected to fields and is looking into that aspect

Re: Trench project
 

I reproduced this on a desert map, with clear, sand, soft sand and earth.

I discovered, that when extending the ends of the laid trenches, I was able to keep on laying much more of them, way beyond of the allowed numbers. :eek:

Re: Trench project
 

I tried it again, using both desert and flat terrain (no fields). Got the same result, only 19 points after removing the trenches.

Re: Trench project
 

Did the game report them as being trenches?

Re: Trench project
 

No, those additional trenches are not reported as such.

I observed though, that on the desert map the build points counter seems to work correctly. So maybe there are two seperate issues.

Re: Trench project
 

I did another desert set-up and this time the build point counter also stuck at 19.

I also found a hex reported as clear trench while is appeared as soft sand. (The marked hex in the image file. Though the mouse cursor isn't visible, it's the right hex)

Edit: My assumption is that it's an issue with the brush, when placing trenches. When removing real trenches some get painted over with surrounding terrain, while the game still reports them as trenches. That's why the build point counter doesn't fully increase back to 20. When extending endpoints of existing trenches while in T-mode the brush still paints trenches, though they are not.
Next test could be to check, that when the build points are stuck, whether there are any hexes that look normal, but the engine reports them being trenches.

Re: Trench project
 

There is much about this particular game "quirk" that is confusing and sometimes contradictory which is why figuring out what causes the issue and fixing it may very well end up not happening

I have had one case where after laying the trench then removing it I ended up with 19 points and I tried three times to recreate that and it worked perfectly every time. I would lay it, remove it and have 20 points

I have had cases where there can be ghost trench laid after the points run out that show as trench but do not report as being trench

Those can be removed easily by removing some actual trench then laying it over the ghosts then removing it and in all cases I have tested that removes the ghost

I did once see a trench laid then I clicked on more hexes to try and generate a ghost and ended up creating two ghost hedgrows that did not report as such..... that was the first time I had seen that but it was in a field surrounded by hedgerow. The ghost hedgerow was removed laying trench over then deleting the trench

The bottom line is it is a "bug" but it's deeply hidden in code that had evolved from code that had started being written in the early 90s as DOS and then converted in the early 2000s as windows with A LOT of added content from then on. The game would not function on the machines used to write and test the original code

It is strange but it can be worked around and it is quite likely to always be part of the game as Andy had run into one dead end after the other trying to find it.

It is NOT a "show stopper" in that it will crash the game and as I have noted there are ways to work around it to get what you want and if you end up with a ghost trench it can be removed simply by deleting some good trench, laying it over the ghosts then removing it and re-build the trench you had to remove the tiles from.

Most of the issue APPEARS to involve fields in some way ( but not always ) so if you do buy some build points and put down some trench in defence be aware of that but I suspect buying points for trenches is not that common in most players games

Thank you Harald and Willian for testing this. The input was appreciated

Don