Disturbing Facts
 

I have copied this from the Stars Supernova Forum regarding their look for a publisher. This is about copy protection and such.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"It's not really copy protection, it's just cool - if you saw one, you'd want it. It's shiny gloss black on matt card. Basically, we don't believe we can defeat piracy - you just can't stop it. However, we want the customers to actually enjoy holding the product. We take a lot of care over production, and we hope that people - like yourself - appreciate the benefit. Consequently, rather than simply copying the game people will want to purchase it. In case your interested, let me tell you a couple of facts. We have sold around 2000 copies of Uplink, however there have been 12000 downloads of the patch. So, for every one copy we sell, 6 are being played.

I do find this a little disappointing, as the money we charge goes straight to us: the developer. There is no middleman (bar the internet charges) and £15 is dirt cheap for a game the standard of Uplink. I'm not slating piracy - half my CDs are copied, but equally I believe there is a difference between ripping of a massive corporation, who have hardly contributed at all to the actual art, and stealing from the artists themselves."<hr></blockquote>

My god, 2000 sold and 10,000 pirated! That is just unreal.... or is it?? How many pirated Version of SEIV Gold are now in circulation? I'll venture a guess of something on the order of 3 to 1. 3 copies to 1 original disk. And the Gold Version JUST came out.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

Of course that is a worst case 10K.
I know that I've downloaded the Patches multiple times. Once when it comes out, and again when I tried reinstalling to fix a problem. Then again, when I had to go BACK a Version in order to play a savegame.
Now, I just keep all the patches I need in a 100MB (for Beta) superzip.

I'm not saying that its insignificant, but it is probably not quite as bad as it seems.

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Ya or one for work and one for the office. If they're having trouble downloading the whole thing, they might do it more than once. Download failures, etc.

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"I'm not slating piracy - half my CDs are copied, but equally I believe there is a difference between ripping of a massive corporation, who have hardly contributed at all to the actual art, and stealing from the artists themselves.""

Pot, here's kettle.

"YOU'RE BLACK!"

WTF *is* uplink, anyway?

Phoenix-D

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Ya that was a little odd. This guy seems to think he's robin hood or something. Steeling is steeling, either do it or don't, there's no in between.

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OMG! 20:1???? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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An old friend of mine, he's in the Army right now, used to write programs. He had a problem with pirating of the beta, so I suggested a way he used to track the Users and people that pirated his beta copies by incorporating a Version checker in the game to find and download updates on his site.

Since each beta user had been assigned different passwords to run the beta, the Version checker could compare the passwords to a list he had stored Online. If the passwords didn't match, the beta would uninstall itself and send information to him on the violater. On top of that, it would write a thing into several places in the registry to not allow another install of the beta. He was clever in the registry code as it was made to look like standard system info that would be missed unless you looked for it.

Back to the topic at hand. Could a modification of this system be used. Perhaps the CD is required for play using the music tracks as the check and putting a similar 'check for update' system?

I dunno, but it's an idea I feel has merit (even if the original concept is borderline overkill)

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

There are two main problems with requiring the CD to be in the machine to play:

1. The ease with which practically anyone now can burn 20 copies of his/her original SE4 disk.

2. There are times when it is convenient to not be required to have the CD in the machine to play. (i.e. multiplayer on a LAN against a few friends that haven't bought the game (but will as soon as they get a taste of how great the game is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ))

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

I'll have you know that Every copy of SEIII, SEIV and SEIV Gold I still have the Disk of each one I find it apalling (?) that people will do this (tho in my younger day I may have http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif )

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> How many pirated Version of SEIV Gold are now in circulation? <hr></blockquote>

It's hard to track this. We believe that SEIV Original was pirated at 20 to 1. That is based on numbers we could track and then figuring we were only finding a small percentage.

It really hurts. Just think of what Malfador and Shrapnel would be able to bring to you, if we had just 20% of those pirated in sales.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> How many pirated Version of SEIV Gold are now in circulation? <hr></blockquote>

It's hard to track this. We believe that SEIV Original was pirated at 20 to 1. That is based on numbers we could track and then figuring we were only finding a small percentage.

It really hurts. Just think of what Malfador and Shrapnel would be able to bring to you, if we had just 20% of those pirated in sales.

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Right now one of the best anti-pirate software equiped games out is Tribes 2. To date, Sierra has prevented nearly a million attempted thefts of Tribes 2. To my knowledge, it is nearly next to impossible to break their anti-theft system as it works off of a CD specific code that must registar with the master server in order to play. If the key is duplicated, then the second on attemp will forfit the key, and the person who owns the disk originally will have to contact Sierra to get a new key. Thats when they bust em.

Keys can not be "randomly" generated because no un-registared key will be accepted into the system. So in order to play the game, you have to registar it. If you make copies, you can use them, so long as you do not attempt to use more than one at a time.

Nice set up if you ask me.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

Yes, but it wouldn't work for games that can be played offline, because many people will buy them to play offline.

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*laughs* Pirating IS pirating, but I cant say that I am 100% against it. In my youth I didnt have **** for money, and honestly my parents wouldnt have given two ****s to assist in the situation.. (this was some, like 5-6 years ago, I was like 15) So I had to make due, learning about coding in C/C++, html, java, and eventually reversing that process to learn about the underground **** that you all despise today *LOL* I dont blame you though. Especially now that Im a grown man who handles his own ****.

Damn straight I paid for SE4... but honestly, I cant say I paid for SE3 back then, it was given to me on a shiney CD-R some years back. Not that I could have paid for it if I had wanted to anyway.

But on the brighter side, that act of piracy allowed me to taste a game that would lay a devastating parasite within my mind *lol* And its because of that that I even bothered to look at SE4 when it was coming around... Seeings how I am not some 15 year old punk anymore, and I can hold my own job and apt, I outgrew the whole stealing software thing, and have a totally legit copy of SE4 Gold... It would be nice to turn the tables around and make due somehow by BUYING an old copy of SE3 (Havent played that in sooo long - lost the cd as well), but that seems a moot point now.

I suppose the moral is this - Stealing is stealing, and YES its wrong, but I wouldnt condemn that dude. I aint no damned Robin Hood myself but I'll tell you this - Had I never gotten ahold of that copy of SE3 a few years ago, I would have never even HEARD about the Demo to part 4, and never had downloaded it (in its 28 mb glory), and Never, ever have purchased it.... So think what you will, but I havta thank the darker past for the brighter future, so to speak http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

SE4 is fabulous, and it just feels better knowing you can play without fear of being charged with theft *LMAO*

PS - (well, I cant say Im against it if ya steal from Microsoft *LMAO* - **** those fags)

----EDIT----
By the way... I am not advocating piracy or defending it, justifying it or anything of that nature... I am merely offering my viewpoint some years ago and recounting the series of events that lead to my own sense of redemption *lol*
Rest assured I would never even post this crap unless I had felt that I somehow leveled the scales a bit by purchasing SEIVG...I mean it is moderated by Shrapnel and MM *LOL* Just to clarify that I am not some Butt-Pirate supporter *LMAO*
But hey - **** happens. Ya do stupid ****. I'm just glad I never let it get outta hand, especially now that Im older.

[ 21 March 2002: Message edited by: Cynapse ]</p>

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

Hmm, Cynapse,
Since you mention you wish you could "It would be nice to turn the tables around and make due somehow by BUYING an old copy of SE3 ", what about buying a second copy of SE IV Gold and breaking it?
Note: I am human and shall not cast the first stone.

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*LOL* I like that... sadly after spending $50 the first time, to simply shatter it wouldn't feel right...I'd rather send it back than simply destroy it *l* MM doesnt sell SE3 as it is anymore?
There were a few things I found that I liked better about it, and it would be nice to get that retro feel again...

I dont suppose anyone would sell their original SE3? *LOL* Guess that's pretty far fetched.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

*LOL* I like that... sadly after spending $50 the first time, to simply shatter it wouldn't feel right...I'd rather send it back than simply destroy it *l* MM doesnt sell SE3 as it is anymore?
There were a few things I found that I liked better about it, and it would be nice to get that retro feel again...

I dont suppose anyone would sell their original SE3? *LOL* Guess that's pretty far fetched.

Hate to trash my own rep on this forum - But I had to be honest in my posting.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

Foks, correct me if I'm wrong, I seem to recall that SE III was downloaded and you purchased an "unlocking" code. I can't find an SE III CD anywhere.

Cynapse, I'm sure MM would take you up on that offer.
BTW: I am not without sin, but I do own a licenced copy of WinZip and a few other shareware programs.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

That explains a few things then, I was wondering why I couldnt find it on Shrapnel or anywhere for sale Online. Coz after playing the demo of SE4 for the first time in August of 2001 (before gold came out and when the DL was only 18mb) I honestly was thinking about saying screw part 4 and I tried finding SE3... but eventually I realized that 4 was indeed better, and I was just being a picky lil **** about it *LOL*

If MM still has it on their site and they are willing to sell a copy - Hey, I feel guilty *LOL* No ****en ****, and would buy a copy of SE3 in a heartbeat. Then, if its all good with Aaron, I'd pay, take the cripped Version of SE3 and just assume never ever receive the unlock code... Its only fair, ya know?

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

Yeah, that's how I got mine (SEIII), thru download and unlocking code. However, ISTR hearing of a CD that had SEIII, SEII, (and maybe SEI) - although I'm not positive...

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

http://www.malfador.com/se3order.html

there you go http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
Foks, correct me if I'm wrong, I seem to recall that SE III was downloaded and you purchased an "unlocking" code. I can't find an SE III CD anywhere.<hr></blockquote>

Ah, a confession at Last - Le Chevalier du Gryphin admits that he has prior experience of the Space Empire series before Le Chat bashing session starts

You cad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

Se2?... Se1? *LOL*
Those I gotta see...for some reason I cant help but get the image of a low-budget sci-fi show (like the original star trek) when I think of what the game must have looked like before SEIII... *lol* No offence to MM or anything, I honestly have no idea what the first two were like... Have heard of 2 before but it sounds too old... Se1 I would like to see just for the sake of it. To see the brainchild that started it all...

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

Phoenix! Thank you...
Perhaps now I can work on climbing out of this rather sizable hole I've dug myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rdouglass:
Yeah, that's how I got mine (SEIII), thru download and unlocking code. However, ISTR hearing of a CD that had SEIII, SEII, (and maybe SEI) - although I'm not positive...<hr></blockquote>

There is a CD called "The Space Empires Collection" which was originally created by a third party. It contains Both SE III and SE II as well as a simple strategy guide, and even the 'original' SE! MM now offers it for sale themselves. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

There is a lot of SE1 & 2 screenshots and stuff at SE.org i think

[ June 14, 2003, 18:35: Message edited by: General Talashar ]

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

Cynapse,
Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning him for pirating, I just find a problem with people who like to look down on others when they themselves commit the same crimes. What's even worse is this guy is in the industry.

I would never condemn someone for pirating, I've done my fair share of pirating, and everyone has stolen in some form or another at some time, there's just no denying it. Heck, thats how I got into the SE series.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,51245,00.html

Nice article....

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

The biggest part of the problem is the attitude that it's all right to steal something if you don't have the money to pay for it, especially it you think that the thing you want is overpriced. There's no way to fix that attitude with legislation.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

Cap,

The point you make is well taken. Morality is not legislatible. But it seems to be almost necessary when what morality that does exist is as malleable as silly putty in order to fit the "perceived needs" of the miscreant.

Whoah, I didn't mean to go off on that tangent. Sorry folks.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

I think things should stay as they are. Would it really be in our best interests to disable our copying and filesharing technologies? Those people who want to pirate will continue to do so; It might require cracking software protection or modifying hardware, but I'm sure they'll figure it out. If software companies come up with a near unbreakable copy protection, great for them. They should. However, hardware should not be crippled. Suppose all future CD burners refuse to burn CD's half the time. Will I go out and buy one? Nope. I'll use my outdated old one, and it'll be a pain in the ***.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

Well, the SE4 forum does seem like a good place to mention the following concept. Supose you have two civilizations (who don't know of each other). They both develop computer technology like we have today, and both produce lots of useful and entertaining programs and media.

The difference is, that one civilization freely allows sharing all these programs and media. Authorship fraud is not allowed, and authors are rewarded for their work based on the amount of use and praise registered by the customers, through taxes and an official praise registration center.

The other civilization is more like ours. Corporations own and control most development, try to control and enforce duplication and even usage rights, and claim as much of the profits for their stockholders as possible.

Which civilization is going to be more productive and happy? I would say, definitely the first one.

My question is, how to change the basic assumptions. Maybe start with a non-profit organization that would take a membership fee and disburse it to authors whose products were used and praised.

How is this different from a conventional publisher? Well, customers would pay a subscription, and then be able to freely download all of that publisher's products. Electronic duplication and distribution slashes that overhead, and with enough titles, it can become very tempting to Subscribe. In theory, the cost of a subscription could be kept low and affordable, because the multiplied value of being able to use all of the products would mean that many more people would Subscribe than would otherwise buy individual products. The problems are that it probably requires a certain critical mass to succeed, both in terms of amount/quantity of content, and amount of Subscribers.

PvK

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

Right now I'm not exactly too keen on either side. Piracy is bad, but some of the people trying to prevent it are worse.

Check this.

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,51274,00.html

Now, the security requiement would be open source. That's good. But it would have to be incorperated into EVERY program and device capable of tranfering files. That means even PBW and SE4 would have to put this code in. Hell, even low-level programs like a cheapie Ping program would have to have it.

Another telling point: one Disney exce has gone so far as to say there's *no such thing as free use*. No biggie, you might think. Wrong. See, if there's no free use, you can't even write a review without their permission. And will they let a negative review go? Not likely.

Phoenix-D

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:
Well, the SE4 forum does seem like a good place to mention the following concept. Supose you have two civilizations ...They both develop computer technology like we have today, and both produce lots ...
The difference is, that one civilization freely allows sharing all these programs and media. ...
. Well, customers would pay a subscription, and then be able to freely download all of that publisher's products. PvK<hr></blockquote>


You just described Communism versus Capitalism.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

All this crap about restricting the use of technology down to the point where solitare will have an armed guard standing next to it, well..

It will discourage companies, publishers, and even little developers from even trying to do anything.

What's next, pay-per-click web?

Honestly, Let's not seek the Democratic solution or the Republican Solution. Let's all find the RIGHT solution.

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Just for people's info, I just searched through Kazaa for any Space Empires game, and found nothing. Found Stars! though, crappy game . .

And just to tell Shrapnel, if you are going by patch downloads, I myself got the Lastest patch no less than five different times.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

No we don't go by patch downloads, we have very accurate ways of finding out what the piracy rates are for our games. And they are pretty bad. But they are pretty bad for everyone...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lupusman:
Just for people's info, I just searched through Kazaa for any Space Empires game, and found nothing. Found Stars! though, crappy game . .

And just to tell Shrapnel, if you are going by patch downloads, I myself got the Lastest patch no less than five different times.<hr></blockquote>

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Arak Koba:

You just described Communism versus Capitalism.<hr></blockquote>

Not at all. Not even Socialism versus Capitalism. Half of what I described is very close to what some of these mega media corps are going for: selling subscriptions to a whole range of media (e.g. cable TV). They're just still hung up about copyright enforcement. The bad part is that they probably are opposed to the other part of what I was talking about, which is compensating mostly the people that actually create the content, and doing it on the basis of customer satisfaction.

PvK

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

A drastic option I touched on earlier: Secretly put a destructive line of code into the program that will...

1.) Corrupt the Game master files.
2.) Corrupt all related game files.
3.) Place several (DOZEN) references in the registry blocking another install of the program.
4.) Encrypt the Registry Install blocks.
5.) Force User Registration of the program with Machine Code, CD Code, etc. This info should also be encrypted.

Just a few more pennies.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

The problem with Locking down hardware and software is that they punish the Users... All anti-pircy techniques will be broken. Who is punished then. The people who pay for the product.

Wheels and manual look up do not work. They're a pain. And once you lose that stuff it is a pain to replace.

And who owns the Registry? The user or companies.

I like to know what is going in there so if you encrypt it I think I would skip the product.

Piracy is a problem, but is also a reality. It will happen. Do you design games for a casual user who is going to play it a few times or do you design games for the people who play them over and over. Look at those people and you will see they purchase the programs because they want that product to continue having a life.

Question I would like to ask the software companies is why do they not go after a levy like the RIAA did in Canada on all blank media that is sold. They may as well beat the Movie Companies to the punch.

Content is king. and this copyright/piracy battle is going to screw us all in the long run.

Because the Content Companies are only looking out in 'our best interests'

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

Piracy is as wide spread as cheating in multiplayer games. Its a sad sick state of affairs when you log onto a Half-Life Counterstrike server and get killed by a cheater who is using a pirated copy of the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Us honest folks can't win to save our asses.

Re: Disturbing Facts
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Richard:
No we don't go by patch downloads, we have very accurate ways of finding out what the piracy rates are for our games.<hr></blockquote>

I was wondering if the "ways" include getting some stats from this bulletin board... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

And, no, I bought the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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I know how you do that too Richard, it set my firewall off. Very clever. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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Huh? What do they do that set off your firewall?

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We don't trasmit anything from your computer, the game automatically tried to phone out to make sure you have a net connection.

Sending out info from a game is illegal, Bliizard got in a lot of trouble for it and we certaintly wouldn't repeat that.

No we do a lot of research on the "warez" scene, that's all.

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Ok, just making sure.

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Just making sure. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Richard:
We don't trasmit anything from your computer, the game automatically tried to phone out to make sure you have a net connection.

Sending out info from a game is illegal, Bliizard got in a lot of trouble for it and we certaintly wouldn't repeat that.

No we do a lot of research on the "warez" scene, that's all.<hr></blockquote>

Heh... after all, how do the 'warez kiddiez' know if you're a software publisher checking up on them? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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Even if you manage to count the number of times people download a game from warez sites, those may be copyright violations, but they don't equate to lost sales. Many people pirate games to check them out. Some of them probably continue to use the pirated Version and would have bought it if they couldn't pirate it, but I'd think that would be a rather small fraction compared to the number who download the pirated Version but don't get into it, and would never have bought it, or do get into it, and end up buying a legit copy.

PvK

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PVK I agree with you there.