What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

What is the secret to using fighters and missles. I am in a game against a modded race (romulans) and they have so much PD's that a missle could never break through, so I don't waste my time. On the other hand they love launching fighters but I have enough PD that their fighters can't break through. Stalemate!
Are fighters and missles any good? If so how do you use them effectively? I am currently playing an SEIV 1.49 TDM game.

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

YOu have raised some good points. I think the secret is like any other weapon tactic in SEIV, use them until your enemy has an effective counter and then retrofit to something else

IMO, missiles and fighters are useful only early on in the game - sometimes working them in combination can be effective where you use missiles to attempt to swamp point defence batteries and then fighters for the kill, but generally when you get to this stage, I find the best tactic is to build some beam heavy close assault ships, stick a couple of escort cruisers with them to keep off the fighters and missiles, get to point blank range and them use PPB's/APB's on large mounts to disembowel your missile/fighter loving enemy

All that being said, everything has its place and a combined arms fleet of assualt, escort, missile and fighter armed vessels is currently working well in my current game

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

Missles never miss. They either run out of range, their target gets destroyed, or they get shot down. If you cannot hit your opponent, missles are a counter to high defense.

Here are some tricks to missles: Use maximum range and let your enemy chase you. This works well if they cannot handle all the missles you throw at them. Another thing to try is close to point blank range so that you next volley appears with the incoming of the prior volley. This works better with Crystalline or Organic seekers which reload in 2 turns instead of 3.

Fighters perform much better with shields. Also, try matching their speed to your fleet so they do not outrun your warships. Otherwise your enemy will pick them off with beam weapons while waiting for the big targets. If they arrive with the warships, they will either be ignored and hit or targeted first, drawing fire.

Also, keep in mind that all units are maintenance free. This makes fighters a nice asset to have around. Some weapons cannot target fighters: High Energy Discharge Weapons and Missiles. Fighters do not require a Shipyard to build, so you can build them at those Facility Full planets.

[ 26 March 2002: Message edited by: LGM ]</p>

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

I forgot to add that Point Defenses are rather expensive in resources and take ship tonnage. If you throw a few fighters/missle heavy fleets at your human opponent, he will have to start increasing his point defenses. Then throw direct fire fleet at him and his point defenses are useless. Make warfare costly for your enemy! (And do not waste your time playing the AI. Humans are more fun and unpredictable).

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

However, point defenses are smaller and cheaper than missles. Which is the main reason it's hard to get enough missles to overwhelm the PDC.

Switching from missles to beams in mid game can devestate your opponent. But if they catch you in the middle of a retrofit cycle, ouch. Timing is everything with that tactic.

IMHO the best use for missles and fighters late game is for defenses. Put the missles on sats and weapons platforms. Keeps your opponent from getting away with glassing your planets cheaply. He has to dedicate real fleets to it. Which can slow him down and give you time to react, or draw his ships away from where you want to attack him.

But it's always good to keep a few of each with your fleets, just to keep the other guy honest.

Geo

[ 26 March 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

Although this question has been answered many, many times, I thought I'd put in a little comment:

In my usual AI games, I always research beams first and missles later... But thats not the point.

The Point is:

After I get the Maximum level of Engine destroying missles and Capital Missles, I get a Light Cruiser, Load it up with the basics, Quantum Reactor, One Mulitplex tracking and many missles I can fit in with a ratio of 2 EDM for 1 CSM.

After that, Although I only use this ship for One on One or Capturing Ships and killing the escorts, I fire the Engine Destroying Missles (sorry, I forget the name) first, then the CSMs later.

Also, I make sure that the ships have equal leverage against the opponents:

Escorts-Light Cruisers - One ship.
Cruiser/Battle Cruiser - Two Ship. (Preferred Three ships as with two, you will probably lose one to the battle cruiser.)
Anything Up - 4-6 Ships.

Large Fleet - 10 Ships.

This worked for me, I really don't know if it will work against human players.

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

If you have a lot of fighters, and your enemy has a lot of Point Defense Cannons on its ships, you might try launching your fighters into space *before* entering combat. Then, when you enter combat, your fighters will be in one group that moves as one instead of many small waves of fighters that are destroyed as quickly as they enter the range of the enemy PDC's.

[ 26 March 2002: Message edited by: raynor ]</p>

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

If you fight in tactical mode, try designing fighters with heavy defenses and send them in first to soak up the point-defense cannon fire, then send fighters w/heavier weapons in.

Of course, in strategic mode this doesn't work very well unless you are lucky.

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

In short:
Paper Rock Scissors
When the enemy changes one of the above, you need to change one of yours. That means researching it ahead of time.
However it is a bad strategy to allow the enemy to ever have the initiative. When ever possible you should be evolving a new weapon / defence befor the threat does.

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

A useful attack tactic in turn mode tactical combat is to close range to point blank with yours carriers with fighters on board, then suddenly launch yours fighters in Groups. In this case fighters are already in range to shot enemy ships without any movement and enemy PD can’t target them if they don’t move after launch.
This tactic require mixed fleets with carriers with a high tactical movement rate, let say quantum engines and solar sail III, to optimise timing of the approach and range of enemy weapons, and long range fighter’s weapons to counter random pop up placement in the fighters launch routine.

Marco

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

This isn’t really a secret for fighters and missiles, but it is related. Should you run into a new race with fighters and missiles, or your opponent has switched on you, it is tough to refit everything with a couple of PDC. A common design, that I have seen talked about a lot and have personally found effective, is the fighter killer. Take a fairly small hull and fill it to the brim with PDC. Put on one small beam weapon to ensure that the ships stays in the heart of strategic battles. Send it out and you have a SEIV equivalent of an Aegis cruiser. They are fairly cheap, quick to build and change the balance of weapons in your favour. They also make nice additions to planet busting fleets, as they eat up sats.

When using fighters, I find sending launching them in the biggest possible Groups is more effective. The small Groups tend to get eaten up by PDC before they get to fire. As another person mentioned, launching them in space before the battle to get very large Groups is also useful, as it leads to the same effect.

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
However, point defenses are smaller and cheaper than missles. Which is the main reason it's hard to get enough missles to overwhelm the PDC.

...
[ 26 March 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]<hr></blockquote>

If you are using Organic Missles then they are cheaper in build time than Point Defenses because almost every ship design I have ever seen is bounded by Mineral costs. Rarely do Organic races even hit the bound for Organic resources at their shipyard. A beam ship needs to dedicate time in training to fight at optimal level. A missleship can go to battle immediately. I played against an Organic race once that would create massive fleets of Organic missleships and consider trading 3 ships for 2 of mine a victory. Of course he built enough direct fire ships to keep me honest. My ships were costly because I had to put so many point defenses on them. The other nuance about missles is that in a large battle (80 on 80 for example), point defenses are spread out with the ships where as the blob of missles tends to be concentrated. As a defender my ships could not mass close enough to take out all the missles. When you have 400 missles to target, it is hard to get every ship to use its point defenses. I should also add that combat replay for such a battle takes hours (fast mode) as it pauses for each missle launch.

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by LGM:


If you are using Organic Missles then they are cheaper in build time than Point Defenses because almost every ship design I have ever seen is bounded by Mineral costs. Rarely do Organic races even hit the bound for Organic resources at their shipyard. A beam ship needs to dedicate time in training to fight at optimal level. A missleship can go to battle immediately. I played against an Organic race once that would create massive fleets of Organic missleships and consider trading 3 ships for 2 of mine a victory. Of course he built enough direct fire ships to keep me honest. My ships were costly because I had to put so many point defenses on them. The other nuance about missles is that in a large battle (80 on 80 for example), point defenses are spread out with the ships where as the blob of missles tends to be concentrated. As a defender my ships could not mass close enough to take out all the missles. When you have 400 missles to target, it is hard to get every ship to use its point defenses. I should also add that combat replay for such a battle takes hours (fast mode) as it pauses for each missle launch.<hr></blockquote>


So you'd hate me if I posted a mod I've been toying with that adds five more levels of seeker weapons for Organic and Crysalline Weapons, three new levels for Capital Ship Missiles and one for plasma missiles? All have higher damage Ratings and (more painfully) higher seeker damage values.

(Crystal Torp X is the worst one, seeker resistance-wise, though the damage inflicted is lower than the others.)

[ 28 March 2002: Message edited by: Sinapus ]</p>

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sinapus:
If you fight in tactical mode, try designing fighters with heavy defenses and send them in first to soak up the point-defense cannon fire, then send fighters w/heavier weapons in.

Of course, in strategic mode this doesn't work very well unless you are lucky.<hr></blockquote>

It is possible in strategic: design some ships with one or two fighter bays. Load them with fighters with one or two shields. Load normal carriers with attack fighters and assign to launch in big Groups. You may want to just fighters speed so anti-PD fighters arrives first. Works really nice if you have crystalline energy tramsmission lens: +60 shield to each fighter group. It is NOT easy to shut down a fighter with 180 shield points and high ECM. AFAIK, point defence cannons are made less accurate in Gold. Your oppenent may spent 3 or even 4 PD shots per fighter.

Re: What\'s tthe secret to Fighters & Missles?
 

trading 3-2 ill trade 3-1 or 4-1 i don't care i can make roughly 15 of my 1 turn organic missleships with lvl 4 or 5 each turn and when i engage the enemy 60-10 it isn't fair at all. a lot of smaller crappy 1 turn produced ships is better than super high tech 3 turn behemoths, think about it you get 3x more ships.