Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

I had originally resisted making an official announcment of this. I did not want to give anybody any ideas. However some things have happened that have made it clear to me it's important to get this out in the open.

If you don't already know, we caught a player cheating in multiplayer games on PBW. The exact method is still being investigated by Malfador, but it appears to be either data file manipulation that circumvented the data file checks, or actual hex editing of the player file. The result is that this player accquired technology in several games that they did not legitematly earn.

While we cannot currently prevent this cheat, rest assured it is fairly easy to detect and confirm that a player is doing it.

The player in question, Tankgirl, has ignored our requests for an explanation, and so is in the process of being stricken of playing privileges on PBW. Most of the games they were involved in have already been scrapped, or are in the process of being adjusted to remove them as a player.

However, a nasty sideeffect of this incident is a climate of distrust that is growing among players on PBW. I have had a few occasions of people suspected of cheating that were investigated and found to be doing nothing wrong.

I will do my best to investigate anyone suspected of cheating, but no action will be taken against players unless actual evidence of cheating can be found.

A player having more tech than you in a game, even several levels, is not eveidence of cheating. There are many legitimate ways to accelerate your research in game, ways that will suprise many people in their effectivness. These are not cheating.

Enhancments to your intelligence characteristic.
Rapid expansion and heavy empasis on building research centers.
Trade and research or better treaties with several players.
Technology trading with other players.
Prioritizing ruins in colonization.
Forcing AI or other players to surender.

All of these methods when employed to their maximum can result in a stagering variance in tech level with a player not doing them to their full potential.

Let's not let the cheaters ruin this great game. If you think someone is cheating, let me know. I will check it out. But let's not go on a witch hunt, and let's not assume that everyone who has more tech than you is cheating.

Geoschmo
PBW Admin Team

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

If you ever need help with stomping out cheaters and such in the PBW, let me know. I've spent a bit of time ensure a number of 'problem people' left SE before they ruined the entire SE community.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

Fricking cheaters. The lowest form of life alive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

(me bad) My statement was over the top and deleted. What can I say, I simply think people who cheat in Multiplayer should not be playing. If they enjoy cheating, they should stick to playing against the computer. People who cheat against real oppenants do it because they enjoy the thrill and risk involved in it. They do it to be hurtful.

This is another reason to make a PBW subscription club. People who are serious about playing the game and who hate cheaters would more inclined to pay for a "special" area to play games out side of the public area. Subscription Members or whatever, often don't get nailed by cheaters.

[ 08 April 2002: Message edited by: Atrocities ]</p>

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

Wow, this thread is quickly degenerating into a hate thread, and not just of cheaters. Atrocities, man, you managed to insult and offend way more people than I think you intended.

And Hadrian, your comments really made you look like a powerhungry egotistical jerk. No offense, I don't mean that you are.

My point is that, yes cheating is a problem, and it is wrong, but how many of you can say you never cheated? I think you should all watch what you say regarding cheaters, you throw out words that catagorize and profile cheaters, which is stupid and wrong. I hope this thread dies, its sad to see such highly regarded members of the community lowering to this level.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

I think every reasonable person would agree that cheating is wrong and should not be tolerated. The point of this thread was not to be a place for "I hate cheaters" rants. My intention was to steer people away from that kind of negative talk that always springs up whenever someone is caught cheating. I wanted to set the record straight instead of letting the rumor mill go wild, and to reassure people steps are being taken to prevent it in the future.

I was trying to point out that while there are cheaters that will break the rules, there are also players that just play very aggresive but completely within the rules. Sometimes these players will be labled as cheaters simply because they do well in their games. I hope everyone is smart enough to not fall into that kind of thinking.

If you have something to say, let's keep it civil.

Geoschmo

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

this may be a stupid question but do the cheat codes referred to in the SEIVG manual work on PBW?

my tuppence on cheaters is this, you set out the ground rules for a PBW game, anyone breaks them deliberately by cheating, kick them out of the game and slot in AI to replace them.

End of story, no need to debate

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Growltigga:
this may be a stupid question but do the cheat codes referred to in the SEIVG manual work on PBW?

<hr></blockquote>
Only if the game owner sets the cheat-code checkboxes when creating the game.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
my tuppence on cheaters is this, you set out the ground rules for a PBW game, anyone breaks them deliberately by cheating, kick them out of the game and slot in AI to replace them.

End of story, no need to debate<hr></blockquote>

The problem with this solution is that the cheating empire typically has an unfair advantage over the other empires. In this case, the cheater had insanely advanced technology. If you turn it over to the AI, then everyone will then abuse AI flaws in order to acquire the techs from the AI, giving them the advantage. The only way to keep the game going is to destroy the cheating empire, removing all traces of its existance from the galaxy

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bman:
The only way to keep the game going is to destroy the cheating empire, removing all traces of its existance from the galaxy<hr></blockquote>

Bman, I agree this is what is needed if you want to set a level playing field

I think the way round this is for Geo to step into the game, take over the cheaters' empire, and try the Tesco Samoa roleplay whereby the whole empire disappears off to another galaxy

Removes the problem, is a bit of fun, and lets Geo practice his amateur dramatics

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

Um,

I maybe stupid in my thinking, but doesnt PBW have checks and balances set to detect the cheats? When I was reading there faqs, i thought I read that.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

PBW itself doesn't, but SEIV does. In this specific case the person devised a way to circumvent those.

Geoschmo

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Atrocities:
This is another reason to make a PBW subscription club. People who are serious about playing the game and who hate cheaters would more inclined to pay for a "special" area to play games out side of the public area. Subscription Members or whatever, often don't get nailed by cheaters.
<hr></blockquote>

PBW subscription might not get the number of players you'd like. Games might not fill up, or you'd be playing the same core group of gamers game after game...

Staying free makes sure that you get fodder like me in games you join. (I'm in Ay Chihuahua Numero Dos (Gold)) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

...though, I'm now a few turns into my first PBW game, and I'm willing to send a few dollars to the admins to keep the service going, since I like the way it plays...

Boomer

[ 08 April 2002: Damn typo! Message edited by: BoomStick ]

[ 08 April 2002: Message edited by: BoomStick ]</p>

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

Agreed that cheating must be handled swiftly, and with force. But I really do think some people could do with a more relaxed attitude! I feel perfectly confident that the PBW team, and Malfador, can handle this and any future issues. Nice to hear that you put this on priority.

It is also good that you tell people about what happened, it stop all sorts of nasty rumors.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BoomStick:
...though, I'm now a few turns into my first PBW game, and I'm willing to send a few dollars to the admins to keep the service going, since I like the way it plays...<hr></blockquote>

We accept donations through Paypal; thanks for reminding me that I need to make the donation button more prevalent on the page. (Sorry, Geo, I ended up with no time this weekend to do it). If you scroll down the PBW front page, you'll find the Paypal donation button.

However, we do not intend to make PBW subscription only--I agree with you that you'd end up with too small a player base.

And finally--I love your handle. ("This... is... my... BOOMSTICK!")

LL/ES2

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

I concur, subscriptions are not the way to go. PBW should remain free.

Although, if someone wanted to create a game on PBW and only accept players that had made donations, I don't suppose we could stop it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geoschmo
PBW Admin Team

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by LazarusLong42:
However, we do not intend to make PBW subscription only--I agree with you that you'd end up with too small a player base.
LL/ES2<hr></blockquote>

bump... can I just say that having surfed quite a few 'game support' sites, my personal view is that the PBW people do a superb job which is frankly peerless and I believe you americans say 'above and beyond'

Those of us who can should contribute via Paypal. I do and I havn't even played PBW yet, just heard one hell of a lot of good things about it - face it, $1 a month for an SEIV afficionado is NOT going to break the bank BUT may give the chaps and chappesses (Mrs Geo?) at PBW a buffer to keep this excellent service running

Huzzah for PBW

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

I was unlucky enough be burned in games reuined by both of the recent cheaters. Probably lost 30-50 hours? I'm not bitter about it cos I know this dort of thing will inevitably happen occasionally, and I guess it's the risk you take. Lately I've been inclined to only join games where I know a majority of the people well from previous games.

In another bizarre twist, another game I was in was just (more or less) cancelled when the admin complained that a number of the players had joined the game with the intent of creating a large, exclusive, alliance that would dominate the Universe. Not sure quite what to think about this one. Opinions ?

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

That's happened to me a couple of times in PBW - but it's part of the game. Alliances are one of the fun things about playing humans - if the admin doesn't like it and doesn't think of it as a challenge he should play the computer.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

That's one of those things a lot of people forget with PBW. The server hosts the games and does the processing, and we will step in in situations where it is obvious that someone is cheating as far as breaking the base rules of SEIV or manipulating data files.

However there are a lot of "game setting" and "gentleman's agreement" areas in SEIV games. Some people call them "house rules". Those are things that are the purogative of the game owner. They can affect game play enormously and can really destroy games if not handled well, but they are judgment calls and basically there is no right answer to most of them. They aren't really PBW or SEIV issues, they are personality isues. Because of that, we will always defer to the game owner, since they are the one who's game it is to begin with you are playing.

Some game owners are better than others at setting clear ground rules and arbitrating disagreements. We try not to get involved in those types of issues, unless it's a case where the game owner has simply abandoned the game and left the players on their own.

If you don't like the way a game owner handles something, you can always vote with your feet, and find another game, or start your own.

Geoschmo

[ 08 April 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

What I was saying about subscriptions was that you have both a free site, and one that people can join for a small membership fee. That way, the members of the pay site won't have to be overetly concerned about possible cheaters, and if someone does cheat, their account it frozen, and they booted out.

Public areas remain free, and anyone who wishes to play can play.

It was just a suggestion to help promote fair play at PBW.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

As one of the players (I gather there were a few) who I think first suspected the player of cheating I thought it might be worth noting that whatever cheat he/she was using seemed to set certain techs to their maximum level. Perhaps they guys at PBW could confirm this so they don't get a rash of complaints just because someone get ahead in tech faster.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

A request to the people who read this:

I know that this forum is very liberal, but please for the sake of the Salem witch trials, No more talk of Cheating.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TerranC:
A request to the people who read this:

I know that this forum is very liberal, but please for the sake of the Salem witch trials, No more talk of Cheating.<hr></blockquote>

Good idea. Because if no one talks about a problem it dissapears right?

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> if no one talks about a problem it dissapears right? <hr></blockquote> Talking a problem to death makes it seem more common than it really is, and does little to actually solve the problem.

I don't know how many times someone has been accused of cheating on PBW, but this was only the second time that the accusation proved to be correct.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

Internet cheating is rampant throughout all networked games. One would think a turn-based strategy game would be played for the enjoyment and challenge, but many play for some twisted support of their weak, faulty egos.

I have had a lot of experience with an out-of-print game several of you may have played, called Empire Deluxe. This was a turn-based strategy game that had a core group of around 60-100 people who like to do PBEM play. The community thrived, and world championship play began (a season was a full year, consisting of 4 or so rounds to determine the champ).

The challenge to this game is very much taking advantage of the fog of war, and having luck in the exploration phase (finding the cities on the map).

The first couple of years went well, but as the tourney began to grow, allocations of cheating began to fly. Cheating in PBEM is easy to do, very difficult to prove. A player could retire in his turn and the map and enemy position would be revealed. Combat ws also psuedo-random and if you did not like how it would out the first time, a cheater would replay his turn.

Referee's were installed with the knowledge of players passwords and the ability to check turns if accusations occured. The referee's would then have to examine the movements of the players to determine if cheating was occuring, though one could never be certain.

Flame wars amongst cheaters and cheatees began to tear the tourney and the community as a whole apart. Quite sad, actually. The community has survived somewhat, but is not what it used to be.

Since the game was out of print, it was very difficult to make secure. With Aaron around, it may be possible to secure a game in some way. But rest assured, even if games are secured or encrypted, somebody will hack it out. I do not know why this is.


Bottom line is expect cheating whenever you play someone you don't know, and only play games that take alot of energy and time with people you trust to get the maximum enjoyment out of it.

Never expect that people are like you, enjoying the game due to the challenge a human player provides. You may ask yourself, "Why would someone cheat in a game that takes a year to play?" I have no answer for you, only that it happens. Alot.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

When it comes to cheaters, hackers, pirates, etc. I want to make sure they never come back again. If that means I have to be a 'powerhungry egotistical jerk' to make sure they get and stay out, so be it.

Of course, the best way to nail, and drive a cheater out, is to catch them cheating. I remember on the Starcraft Ladder Blizzard has, there was one guy that turned around and played a game against a cheater and lost. he put him to a rematched and cheated himself in such a way that it forced the original cheater to expose himself as a cheater and get caught red handed.

In closing thoughts, I tend to give my trust to people right off. once they betray that trust, they never get it make no matter how hard they try. I'll give them second chances to be a friend, but I will never trust them.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
And Hadrian, your comments really made you look like a powerhungry egotistical jerk. No offense, I don't mean that you are.<hr></blockquote>

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by RabidFan:

You may ask yourself, "Why would someone cheat in a game that takes a year to play?" I have no answer for you, only that it happens. Alot.<hr></blockquote>

RF: You answered the question yourself...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Never expect that people are like you.<hr></blockquote>

[ 11 April 2002: Message edited by: wr8th ]</p>

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

What a shame that this cheater, who is obviously clever, chose to be slimey instead of making a scenario editor that we could all use and enjoy. (See my tag line.)

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

How do we know that this same cheater did not just create a new user name? Perhaps toning down the cheat a little so as not to be noticed.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

I would guess they blocked the IP and are devising a way to ID suspected cheaters.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
I would guess they blocked the IP and are devising a way to ID suspected cheaters.<hr></blockquote>

Most People dont have a fixed IP so block an IP wont work, perhaps you even block other players.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

Hmm.. True on that. A more complex route to block IP's would to create an 'allowed Users list' with whole IP ranges blocked off because of cheaters and Users also in that range would be granted access.

There is no 100% way to block a cheaters besides finding them and pounding them into a pulp.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Schwarzbart:


Most People dont have a fixed IP so block an IP wont work, perhaps you even block other players.<hr></blockquote>

That would be possible in some cases. Anybody who has a cable modem/DLS usually keeps the same IP. Mine hasn't changed in months and months. And the IP is included in the e-mail headers so you could exclude there. Probably not worth the effort, I don't believe there are all that many cheaters around.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

*Lol* DSL in Germany is disconectet every 24 h so you get a new IP at Last every day.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

A sad state. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

There is a growing sense of paranoia it seems over on PBW.

A person whom I know would never cheat in in a game was recently accused by his main opponent whom is also the host. This is very self serving.

Futher rather than find out from the player what was up. He went straight to admin and complained.

With all the talk here on this topic, I guess things will get worse before they get better.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rich04:
A sad state. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

There is a growing sense of paranoia it seems over on PBW.

A person whom I know would never cheat in in a game was recently accused by his main opponent whom is also the host. This is very self serving.

Futher rather than find out from the player what was up. He went straight to admin and complained.<hr></blockquote>If a player has suspicions about someone I would prefer they come to one of the admins first rather than confront the player, or spread unsubstantiated rumors about them. We can check the files and put your mind at ease without having the hurt feelings.

Consider the options if you think someone is cheating. Either they are or they aren't. If they are, what purpose is served by going to them first? If they are cheating they are going to admit it?

If they are not cheating what purpose is served. They say they aren't, but you don't really know do you? So now they are feeling insulted and paranoid, and you still think they are cheating.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rich04:
With all the talk here on this topic, I guess things will get worse before they get better.<hr></blockquote>I have to disagree respectfully. As long as the discussion stays curteous and constructive, there is no harm from talking about it. It's an important issue as it raises fundamental questions about the fairness of play. My intent in bringing it up was not to fuel the hysteria, but to try and calm it.

The fact is, and this should give some perspective and make people feel better, that only twice in the year of PBW have we found evidence of cheating. That's a pretty good record considering that we have had over 2000 Users, and almost 300 that use it every day.

Geoschmo
PBW Admin Team

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

I agree with what Geoschmo just said.

The game owner that is being refered to probably felt this way, so that would be why he did what he did. Doing this has nothing to do with being self-serving. If he was only looking out for himself, he probably would have looked at the game files himself first, instead of contacting the admin.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

How do you go about proving someone is cheating?

I have heard of some sort "anti-cheat" method in the game. What is it? Does it work? Is that only good for simultaneous games? What about typical turn based games? What's to keep someone from modifying the data files on his computer so that when he attacks during his non-simultaneous-turn turn (does that make sense? his anti-proton beam I (which, of course the adversary doesn't have anymore) has 10,000 damage points etc...

I think the only solution is to play with someone you can honestly say you trust.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

ISTM that some sort of record of the game's data files are kept (encrypted) in the savegame file.

If your data files do not match, the game dosen't let you play your turn.
It does cause some trouble when you are trying to update the data files to fix bugs, or get a new patch of SE4; all the players have to make the change at the same time in order for it to work.

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

Its a shame that certain players must cheat in order to have fun. The idea of playing games against others is to have fun and enjoy yourself. If one must resort to cheating in order to prove he's the best, then that person should get out of gaming, for he's proven he's far from it. If you want to play for blood instead of just to have fun, then those are the type of games you need to find and not ruin the others for everyone else. Cheating doesn't solve or make one better then anyone else, it belittles the person and just shows that person can't hack an honest game win or lose and that he doesn't belong. I don't like cheats, but you must remember, there are honest mistakes, and you must determine whether it was an honest mistake or a knowing, purposely cheat in the game. I agree with Geo, if you suspect of cheating going on, contact the admin, let them look into and make the determination one way or the other, confrontation hurts everyone especially if it turns out it was not a cheat but an honest or misinterrupted action. This saves hurt feelings and lessons antimosity among the gamers. If found cheating, then the admin should take whatever action they seem fit up to and including posting the name of the cheater here in the forum IMHO.

Remember one thing, Don't over-react, check it out first before you open mouth and insert foot. Be sure of accusations, just suspicion without proof is not good enough to accuse and ruin someone's reputation, without hard proof it is not a good idea as it could cause untold repercussions that may not be warranted...

Leave it up to the Admin.... IMHO

just some ideas mac

[ May 30, 2002, 17:28: Message edited by: mac5732 ]

Re: Official statement of cheating on PBW.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I'll admit it is difficult, but I believe you can come pretty close. You need two pieces of software; a client which is graphics, communications and control interface, and a server that does everything and keeps all the data. You have to design the game this way from the outset. You have to assume the players will cheat at every opportunity.

You also have to have a clear idea just what real cheating is in a multiplayer enviornment, {the delibrate manipulation of game data or anothers computer, as opposed to taking advantage of oversites or aspects in the game design that can give a player an advantage if exploited. The former is probobly illegal, the latter, annoying, but none-the-less, can ruin a game.

That all said, "Pounding them into a {bloody} pulp" can be an excellent and rewarding pastime.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 30, 2002, 13:05: Message edited by: Tenryu ]