Proportions 2.1 available
 

It can be downloaded from the Proportions web page.

This is mainly a "fix-it" patch, with some nice improvements that don't really alter balance.

I recommend the new Tri-Polar quadrant type for new games (multi-player or vs. the AI).

In 2.2 I may change some of the facility values a bit, in particular the Solar Generator. I haven't finished reflecting on what I think would be best for those, and if I want to tweak others or not.

If there are players still running pre-2.0 games who are eager to get 1.6 (since they can't upgrade to 2.x), let me know.


Version 2.1:

* Corrected typos in Heavy Ship Mount.
* Fixed display problem with Psychic Eavesdropping and with
Industrial Sabotage.
* Adjusted costs of Economic Disruption and Resource Procurement,
and added another level called Economic Sabotage.
* Increased cost and reduced the effect of Food Contamination.
* Increased cost of Ground Contamination and Weather Disruptions,
and added other tech level requirements besides Applied Intel.
* Added a couple of advanced ship bombs to intel ops.
* Added Oleg's AI_General files to help the AI choose racial traits
more effectively in Proportions.
* Tweaked Abbidon AI_General file to make them choose racial traits
and characteristics even more effectively. Others will be tweaked
more in later Versions.
* Added Tri-Polar, Tri-Polar (Wide), and Strands system types. Tri-
Polar is the new recommended default.
* Added and adjusted values for terrain - storms and warp points
in particular now have more varied effects, especially in damage
amounts. This only affects newly-generated quadrants.
* Added some random events.
* Changed base max number of systems in a quadrant to 130. This can
be changed to players' tastes (up to 255) in settings.txt.
* Changed seeker damage resistance of light missiles, but I don't
think this currently has any effect on any existing PD weapons.
* Corrected cosmetic typo in Weapons Platform Command Centers.

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Oh, I knew I was forgetting something, darn it! The list of changes lies - only the Abbidon were given a new AI_General file - I forgot to include Oleg's others - they'll be in the next one though, probably with tweaks.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Pvk,

Are you wanting to update the current game to 2.1?

Geoschmo

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Hmm, I was thinking you wouldn't need to, but I guess it'd be good, if it's not hard. Most of the changes won't make any difference at this point. I guess someone could put a heavy ship mount on a Colony Ship... ;->

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

I know this maybe a stupid question... but this is for SE iv gold correct?

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Should we d/l 2.1 if we are playing in the PBW game, or hold off?

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Wow...this mod just keeps getting better and better. I love it. :}

Just one pesky little question: When might those "upgradable" cities be making their debut? I'm itching to grow a megalopolis...

Regards:

Cornelius Scarecrow.

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Big Game Hunter, yes, this is a mod for Gold (it wouldn't really work in 1.49, even if I tried to make it).

Cargus, let's just switch when geoschmo upgrades the PBW Version. You can go ahead and download it and try it out under a different folder name (like Proportions2.1), and then rename it when the PBW game gets switched. I think SE4 will notice if you try to load the turn with the wrong mod Version loaded. If you get the warning, switch to 2.1.

Cornelius, actually, the upgrade ability (as far as SE4 allows it) for cities is in 2.1. I just forgot to put it in the Version notes.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Minor issue:

In Facility.txt, there are two entries for Radioactive resourse storage III (extra one is just above the distribution center). I don't think it has any effect on game play except for double appearence in the construction list.

Regarding to the game I mentioned in Prop.2.0 thread, it quickly detiorated to World Peace. I have treaties with all AI I am in contact with and AI no longer fight among themselves either.

The surprisingly peaceful nature of even the most aggresive AI in Proportions mod is in fact a testimony how good is overall AI in SEIV:

The trade/research treaty in Proportions is extremly profitable, it will take years and years of colony development to match the benefits of trade. Apparently, AI understands it and beheaves accordingly.

[ 09 April 2002: Message edited by: oleg ]</p>

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

OK.....where is it? would like to D/L also how big is it? (slow conn speed) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

motlee:

scroll down to the very first post.
You must have Prop1.3 on SE IV Gold disk,
so all you need is a 2.1 patch from PvK web page. It is only 163K.

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Will try to get tonight http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by oleg:
The surprisingly peaceful nature of even the most aggresive AI in Proportions mod is in fact a testimony how good is overall AI in SEIV:

The trade/research treaty in Proportions is extremly profitable, it will take years and years of colony development to match the benefits of trade. Apparently, AI understands it and beheaves accordingly.<hr></blockquote>

More likely the slower rate of expansion is what is controlling this. The AI typically are quite passive in standard SEIV until your territory starts butting up against theirs. Once you colonize in a system they have claimed, or in some cases a system next to one they have claimed, they start to become more hostile towards you. Since Proportions expansion is slower, it should take longer for this to happen naturally.

Geoschmo

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Thanks Schwarzbart!

Oleg, ya I accidentally duplicated the Resource Storage III. It shouldn't do anything but offer it twice on the list. I'll add an impossible tech req to the second one for the next patch so it will vanish without changing existing games.

As for the peaceful thing, I agree with geoschmo that the reduced expansion rate has a large effect. However another thing is that I rampaged through the AI files and altered a number of things. AI's that were supposed to be peaceful now have greatly reducded "envy" for their allies' possessions, and in some cases tolerate shared border areas. The ones that are supposed to be violent and psychotic though might be wanting a tweak in the other direction to counteract the effect of slower expansion.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

PvK, out of curiosity, why did you put
3 advanced traits for Abidon' 2K set up ?
It does not do any harm of course, since SE IV terminates race set up after reaching 2000 points (exactly between first and second advanced traits), but still ?

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Because it will use it in higher-point starts. Set up a 5000-point game, and if it picks an appropriate set-up option (#1 or #3), it will take three traits. I just tested this again and it is working for me.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Would it harm anything if we took out the second "Rad Resource Staorage III" reference in facility.txt?

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wr8th:
Would it harm anything if we took out the second "Rad Resource Staorage III" reference in facility.txt?<hr></blockquote>

It won't harm anything if you only play games started after you make that change, and aren't playing with people who haven't made that change.

If you try to play an old game after doing that, then all facilities in the game will transform to a different type of facility. If playing multi-player with someone who hasn't made the change and you have, you should get stopped by SE4 when you try to load the turn.

However, you can avoid breaking things (except the multi-player warning), if you do something like I plan to do for 2.2, and add an unattainable tech requirement. E.g., make the tech requirement for the second one Mineral Extraction level 20.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

I don't know if you've seen this yet, and it is in 2.0, so maybe you have. But here it is anyways. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I just discovered a spatial rupture system, and it says that the "center of the infestation will dammage any ships that enter it." Just a minor typo, but it is rather odd to see that an infestation will hurt me if I enter the center of a spatial rupture. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

OOps... thanks Fyron!

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

At fisrst I whnt to say what a great mod Proportions is, It s my absolut favorit at moment (even if I cange a vew things http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

Now a word of warning: Don't use the upgrade Facilitys Button if you bild a city as it would be instantly upgraded to the highest City Facility your race know!

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Would a level higher than large fighter, say "shuttle", be unbalanced if one were able to load small boarding parties or landing troops on them?

Also, by adding this 2.1 patch to my newly started 2.0 game, can I expect minor or major problems, or would you just recomend waiting until 2.2.

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

I don't know if boarding parties work on fighters or not. If they did, they should get a reload time of 30 to prevent one fighter from capturing dozens of small ships. The boarding strength should probably be low enough that it could only capture a ship with one crew quarters and no defensive troops. Since boarding attacks can't combine, this would make for kind of a limited surprise design, although I guess it could be useful against a player or AI that liked to use lots of small ships without shields.

I suppose a REALLY large fighter could be made just to hold a really large boarding party weapon that would have enough men to overcome larger security forces, but it should be very expensive and have reload 30, and the fighter should be slow and not so hard to hit, if it's going to be at all balanced versus conventional ship-mounted boarding parties, because the fighter ones will not require repair after use, and will not have a maintenance cost, and will not require a ship to carry them and lower their own shields to use them, all of which are major advantages.

As for carrying troops, a fighter can't do that, because units can't carry other units. The landing shuttle would have to be a small ship, in which case it'd have to fly to a target by itself, because nothing can carry ships.

Proportions 2.1 can and should be used with existing 2.0 games, I would say. The only major change to existing stuff will be heavy ship mounts, which will suddenly require less space and cost more, meaning designs that use them can now be upgraded to include some more stuff.

There might be an issue with the new Gold patch and Proportions - I ran a test game in Gold 1.66 and the AI wasn't building colony ships, whereas it definitely was with the same Version of Proportions on Gold 1.60. I'll try to figure that out by this weekend sometime.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:
There might be an issue with the new Gold patch and Proportions - I ran a test game in Gold 1.66 and the AI wasn't building colony ships, whereas it definitely was with the same Version of Proportions on Gold 1.60. I'll try to figure that out by this weekend sometime.

PvK<hr></blockquote>

If I take a look into the release notes, it looks like several issues regarding colonizers have been struggled with:

Version 1.61:
1. Changed - The Default_Ai_Construction_Vehicles.txt file will now allow for the design name or the design type. The term "Colonizer" is till hard-coded to be evaluated to the needed type of colonizer. When looking for the design to build, the game will look for the latest design which matches the design name. If no match is found, then the latest design which matches the design type will be located. If neither is found, this purchase item will be skipped.

Version 1.62:
1. Fixed - The AI was not purchasing colonizing ships.

But my guess is this one, due to the extraordinary costs of colonizers in proportions:

Version 1.66:
4. Fixed - Improved the AI's calculation of resources available for purchases of ships and units.

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Re: Unit boarding parties

AFAIK, units aren't checked for ship capture. In the earliest Versions of P&N, pirate fighters had "Swashbuckler Pods"; but due to hard code issues, they didn't do anything (except take up space and look pretty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

S_J would probably have the latest on this, though.

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

I'll probably hold off on the patch (when I find a way to download it since the .exe won't pass the firewall) since I prefer playing Proportions with the AI able to build colonizers...

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Wr8th re: firewall.

Just get someone to zip it and email it to you, that'll work, won't it?

I'll do it if you like, mail me on dogscoff@altavista.co.uk

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Thanks very much D. for your kind offer.

I'm gonna try a workaround and see if my wife can download it (they don't have the same firewall restriction where she works). I don't want to put anyone out if I can avoid it. If my idea doesn't work, I'll take you up on your offer.

Thanks again.

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

PvK,

What's the reason behind making the new tri-polar map the default. Does the AI work better with it vs. others?

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

The Tri-Polar quadrant is just my current favourite. I like the layout and variety of the quadrant shapes and connections it creates, and it's the Last one I tweaked. It is pretty good for the current AI because it has a relatively low number of planetless systems. The Sidereal type is pretty good for the AI, too. I'm hoping to steal some time to tweak the AI a bit for 2.2, and then that'll matter less.

I am thinking that Gold 1.67 does have an issue with the AI for Colony Ship design in Proportions, so I'll try to come up with a 2.2 to deal with it, as soon as my spare time allows (I'm not sure what I need to do to fix it, but I think/hope it might be simple.)

Oleg, thanks for the comment on the Temporal Shifter. Let's see... hmm, yes, I think you're right - I'll extend the highest tech level in about the same way as with the NSP.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

BTW, it looks like the Proportions 2.1 AI does design and build colony ships... eventually. With the new Gold patch supporting new means of controlling AI production, however, the next thing to mod is clearly some better Proportions AI's.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

So, does it work with SE 1.67 ?
I want to install the new patch but reluctant to do it if it is incompatible with Proportions.

Weapon balance issue :

Shard cannons an null-space projectors got a boost in Proportions to compensate for new "internal" armour.
But Temporal Shifter (temporal null-space weapons) has not been changed. I suggest +20 to its damage (exactly the same bonus as to N-S projector)

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

As a Last resort you can simply low the colony ship cost. It will not affect the game dynamics too much I think. The bottleneck is still the extreme dependence of construction rate from population and very high cost of hugh level cultural facilities. The slow speed of colonisers are a factor too. I believe that small tweak of colony ship cost should solve this problem.

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Well, actually it's now looking like a fluke or intermittant problem, or a 1.66 issue rather than a 1.67 issue. I only saw it not building colony ships in one test game in 1.66, and apparently in an all-tech-known (not really appropriate for Proportions, anyway) game in 1.67, which I might just not have run long enough. So, I'll keep an eye on it, but I think I may have been prematurely worried.

The AI tweaks though are working out well. It appears that once I get some AI's customized for Proportions and Gold 1.67, it will be a lot more effective. &lt;evil grin&gt;

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

I reduced the Cargo Storage of the Cargo Bay's even lower! I don't think that a Cargo Bay can store more then its size.

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Schwarzbart:
I reduced the Cargo Storage of the Cargo Bay's even lower! I don't think that a Cargo Bay can store more then its size.<hr></blockquote>

While that is certainly up to you, I can't see the logic behind it. The size of the cargo bay is a weight IE 20kT, not a space like m3. So cargo bay advances would be things that allow you to secure cargo with the lightest structure and material allowed.

Of course if it makes a better game for you, then go for it! But there is no problem for a cargo bay holding more than it weighs.

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by bstripp:


While that is certainly up to you, I can't see the logic behind it. The size of the cargo bay is a weight IE 20kT, not a space like m3. So cargo bay advances would be things that allow you to secure cargo with the lightest structure and material allowed.<hr></blockquote>

If I understand your answear right then is the ship size of a Fighter its weight and the Ship size of a Escort its volume?

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

I checked proportions with 1.67 patch and there seems to be no problems with AI and colony ships.
(1 planet start, low starting tech)

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Yes, I think I was overreacting to a test game where none of the AI's had done any colonizing in the first three years. It was Version 1.66, and I think I was probably just surprised by their slowness to build a colony ship, but I think now it was because of their AI files being that way and not because of a bug, so I should've tested more.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

As for cargo bays, yes 4 million population is about the max per transport in Proportions, given highest tech ship sizes and components. I'd say it's generous too, realistically speaking. If this were SE3 and I could differentiate between cargo storage types, I might make it worse in terms of cost, because once you have four million people in a space ship, you have to keep them alive for months or even years in deep space... good luck doing that efficiently! Oh, you'll "just" have four MILLION cryogenic hybernation compartments? Ok... total price tag... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As for whether a cargo bay should be able to store more than its size, I think SE4 is too abstract and undetailed in its measurements to take all of the measurements literally. Also, bstripp is quite right that mass and volume are different things, and I would add that items like people or space fighters themselves are one thing, while the mass and volume of what is needed to keep them functional is something else. Unfortunately, they're all on the same scale (kT). In short, don't take the masses TOO literally in terms of imagining what they represent - they are only accurate as effective measures of what you'll be able to cram in a location, or not.

I would also say that I don't think a space fighter would ever actually have a mass of even ONE kiloton, unless it was something unlike what I and most SF writers have generally imagined, or was made out of hyperdense alloy or whatever (which would tend to make it vastly less maneuverable than a lighter fighter). SE4 though only has one measure of size, and a fighter also needs supplies, maintenance crews, launch space and so on. Also, in order to be able to design the components on a fighter and have a limit, integral sizes means they have to be more than one kT, since that's SE4's smallest measure. So, either you accept that that there is a lot of abstraction going on, or you imagine enormous fighters, or you decide that each fighter represents a squadron, or whatever. Personally, I tend to imagine each fighter as one fighter that is probably well under 1 kT, but for purposes of effective cargo space required to store a fighter and the personnel/droids/supplies/spare parts/ operating space & base equipment needed to actually operate it for months on end, that's what the size represents when in cargo mode.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

"Also, bstripp is quite right that mass and volume are different things"

Anecdotal but related: Goering forgot about that as he sought to supply the 6th Army.

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

PvK,

The Last level in Industry (level 3 I think) does not produce anything. Was this done on purpose?

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by RabidFan:
PvK,

The Last level in Industry (level 3 I think) does not produce anything. Was this done on purpose?<hr></blockquote>

Actually, it does allow you to build Arcologies, if/when you also research Construction level 4. There are several multiple tech-level requirements in Proportions. During play, these will look like some tech levels allow nothing new to be built, or less than they are prerequisites for, until you research the other prerequisite techs. SE4's basic game set does not use many multiple tech requirements, and unfortunately, the game does not display partial prereqs in the main research interface.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

OK I get it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I was just seeing IF I did something wrong......Have to play a lot different in this mod than SEIV normal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif so far so good

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Is it right that a transport ship in this mod only hold 4M? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mottlee:
Is it right that a transport ship in this mod only hold 4M? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif <hr></blockquote>


Yes, and I think it is quite generous. Can you imagine a starship capable to transfer four million people to another world ?

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

Yes, the Proportion's gameplay is totally different.

Speaking about cargo load, I would like to see more benefits of high level cargo. Example: whatever is the level of cargo, there is no way to transport more than 1 M people untill you research large transports. As it is now, there is almost no incentive for cargo advance. Medium transport with cargo III still transports the same 1M as with cargo I. It would be nice if the progress in cargo let you to squeeze another million or so.

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

"During play, these will look like some tech levels allow nothing new to be built, or less than they are prerequisites for, until you research the other prerequisite techs."

What was suggested to me when I was griping about the same problem is putting in "prototype" techs. These are just copies of the normal stuff, but with one less tech requirements.. and seriously deficent in one or more areas. Maybe they even do nothing, and just say you need to research "blah blah blah" tech area before this will be of any use.

Phoenix-D

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

PVK, have you though about adding more levels to cargo storage??

Re: Proportions 2.1 available
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by oleg:
Speaking about cargo load, I would like to see more benefits of high level cargo. Example: whatever is the level of cargo, there is no way to transport more than 1 M people untill you research large transports. As it is now, there is almost no incentive for cargo advance. Medium transport with cargo III still transports the same 1M as with cargo I. It would be nice if the progress in cargo let you to squeeze another million or so.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, I noticed that too, and agree it would be nice to have the possibility of a 2M pop transport before getting to Large Transport. (I found one possible design, but it's speed 1 and requires other high tech, so doesn't count.) Cargo tech is useful of course for other types of cargo. I just want to be a little careful to try to get a 2M medium pop transport without making the max transport too big, or allowing too much other cargo to be jammed in one ship (ala the standard tech set). I guess I should revisit the idea of making a Population Transport module that can hold 1M people but is more expensive and fragile than regular cargo, and too big for most ship designs (so people aren't tempted to abuse it for extra unit storage space, or whatever). Anyway I'll give it some thought and try to come up with something that suits.

PvK