How do you use drones?
 

One month after the release of SE IV Gold I am still uncertain if I should make my AI empires use drones.
So what are your experiences with drones either as human players or as designers for AI empires? Do you use them and if yes what designs?

My limited experience is that the allegiance subverter may be quite useful in anti-ship drones as are solar collectors.
The main limitation in my opinion besides the lack of "move to" orders and the lack of launch control in simultaneous games or strategic combat is the high cost of drones. I therefore created a "drone mount" for all non-weapon components that reduces the cost by 50%.

[ 13 April 2002: Message edited by: Q ]</p>

Re: How do you use drones?
 

I have used drones only 1 time and that is in my current game. I like them in general but I don't like that I have to go back and retreive them ... laziness on my part. I had a group in planet defense, the lost one to PD fire but after 3-5 hits (sure exactly sure how many now) they knocked out an enemy cruiser. This was with low grade warheads. There probably are nuiances I didn't see that others may.

One down side is they can only be carried in a ship...no weapons platform or satellites with them (IIRC).

Re: How do you use drones?
 

"I like them in general but I don't like that I have to go back and retreive them ... laziness on my part."

Umm.. you CAN'T go back and retrive them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Once they're launched, they're out for good.

Phoenix-D

Re: How do you use drones?
 

I think they are useful in situations where your empire has a lot of resources to invest over time, such as peacetime development periods in multi-player games. They are both powerful and expensive, entirely disposable yet with no maintenance cost. They're expensive in the short-term but cheap in the long term, and are the only unit that can be used offensively across warp points without carrying them all in ships. Also, they can make a single ship much more powerful than it appears. So, it makes the most sense to me to stockpile them during periods of peace, and use them for brief but terrible surprise strikes.

Also, if a game is set up so that they bypass mines (in settings.txt), then they are good for that purpose.

PvK

Re: How do you use drones?
 

Phoenix: ah, I see. I didn't go back when used. Didn't know I couldn't.

Re: How do you use drones?
 

Drones appear to have many of the characteristics of a mine except that you can move them within a system using the attack order and they have to undergo combat rather than just inflict damage automatically.
They dont seem to really be useful until you get the level 2 Version. Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Re: How do you use drones?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by God Emperor:
Drones appear to have many of the characteristics of a mine except that you can move them within a system using the attack order and they have to undergo combat rather than just inflict damage automatically.
They dont seem to really be useful until you get the level 2 Version. Anyone got any thoughts on this?<hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't agree at all with any of that, actually.

Re: How do you use drones?
 

How do I use Drones?

Defensive Purposes only really, as the supply limits arent really that high and as the supply goes at 0, the drones self destruct.

I only keep about 10 ship to ship drones on planets and 5 assorted drones on military installations and starbases, just in case some revolutionary gets bored http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: How do you use drones?
 

In full tech games, I got some good results using Drones with Null-Space Projector, a Combat Sensor and a ECM.
4 of these usually can destroy a heavy and expensive Aquilaeian DN!

For races with Psychic tech tree, think that the Alliegiance Subverters could be nasty.

Re: How do you use drones?
 

In one of my solo games, anti-ship drones are the main thing that's been keeping the Cue Cappa from completely crushing me. Last time I looked at the stats, the 24 drones I've lost so far had destroyed over 5300kT of enemy ships.

I don't remember what bonus I gave the AI when I set up that game, but the Cue Kappa have been using small fleets of cruisers, while my fleet is only a mix of destroyers and frigates.

Re: How do you use drones?
 

@Pvk,
Can you elaborate?

Regards,
GE

Re: How do you use drones?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by God Emperor:
Drones appear to have many of the characteristics of a mine except that you can move them within a system using the attack order and they have to undergo combat rather than just inflict damage automatically.
They dont seem to really be useful until you get the level 2 Version. Anyone got any thoughts on this?<hr></blockquote>

I agree that higher tech drones are better and more useful than lower tech ones in the standard tech set, and that they are like mines in that they are units and so don't have a maintenance cost, and that they don't inflict damage automatically.

How else are drones similar to mines? The only other similarity I see is that their tech trees are overly simplified. Of the other points of comparison, I mainly see differences. For examples:

* Mines are swept by minesweeper ships using a fairly predictable mechanic. Drones don't have a counter-tech, except maybe Point Defense, but its effects are far from predictable, as are drone effects.

* Players must research mines to be able to sweep them. They don't have to research drones to be able to counter them.

* With settings set to allow it, drones can be used to bypass mines.

* Drones can be used offensively, while mines essentially cannot.

* A stack of minesweepers can sweep any minefield that hasn't been overloaded. Drones can come in essentially unlimited numbers.

* Drones can be used to augment fleet strength. With shields, armor, and/or ECM, they can be combined with fighters and/or seekers to overwhelm even strong enemy point defenses.

* Drones can't be used to defend open space, unless you build a base with drone launchers.

* Mines are undetectable, but can't move once deployed. Drones are detectable once deployed, and can be reassigned to secondary targets after their first target is destroyed.

* Drones represent a greater potential offensive threat and anti-ship weapon.

* Mines are a lot cheaper IF you catch the enemy without minesweepers.

* Drones become much more powerful with higher component technology (not just drone tech itself), whereas mines themselves don't increase as much in effectiveness at higher tech (they can be more explosive per mine, but larger mines are just as easy to sweep, whereas a high-tech drone can use components that make it hard to hit).

Etc.

PvK

Re: How do you use drones?
 

On that Mines cannot be used offensively:

Go to a homeworld or space yard planet
Pop a few mines
and get out

The best "defense" is offense.

Re: How do you use drones?
 

Ya, kind of, although they'll only hurt things arriving at that planet - not things sitting there, or leaving. Unless this is a booby trap for an ally you expect to lose, there will be a combat round involved, which if you survive to lay mines, the enemy will still see your ship layout, so if he's awake and notices, he may guess what you are doing, count your mine-laying capacity, and assign an appropriate sweeping effort.

All of this is entirely unlike drones (the point of the question I was answering), and reminds me of another difference: mines can guard a location indefinitely, while drones will either expire, or require cargo space.

Also is the count towards the units in space limit. 1000 mines is like 10-30 defended sectors that can be penetrated easily with enough minesweepers, while 1000 drones is extreme power, offensive or defensive.

PvK

Re: How do you use drones?
 

PvK, I agree with what you say but with regard to the Last point, 1000 drones would be considerably more expensive and build than 1000 mines.

Are we not back to the old question of balance?

Re: How do you use drones?
 

@Pvk,
Thanks for the reply.
Food for thought.

Regards,
GE

Re: How do you use drones?
 

You can overcome the slow resource drain in orbit by adding some solar panels.

I like to use them to clean up small planets and guard empty space. Launch several in a corner and wait. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

EDIT: I wish I could sppell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ 15 April 2002: Message edited by: adder_inf ]</p>

Re: How do you use drones?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Growltigga:
PvK, I agree with what you say but with regard to the Last point, 1000 drones would be considerably more expensive and build than 1000 mines.

Are we not back to the old question of balance?<hr></blockquote>

Of course. I was just pointing out another difference. In games with lower settings on "maximum units in space", minefields consume a lot of it, because to be useful, they must (mostly) be deployed in space. Thinking strategically towards a large empire, if the setting isn't 20,000 or something nice like that, then the number of mines deployed has to be weighed against the limit on the number of strategically deployed (i.e., not based on planets/bases/ships) fighter and satellite swarms, etc. Some games have this limit turned down to 1000 or so, for whatever reason. Drones are at the opposite end of the scale from mines in terms of how much of this limit they consume. Not only are 100 drones an extremely powerful asset, but in general they also won't stay in space for more than a few turns (since they actively and quickly engage targets, and also expire). Of course, 100 drones are a massive (initial) expense compared to 100 mines, but my intention is to point out differences between drones and mines, since God Emperor seemed to think they were very similar, and I was trying to explain several ways in which they don't seem similar at all to me.

PvK

Re: How do you use drones?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by adder_inf:

Not That Button!

Oops sorry.

Well great another war.
<hr></blockquote>

I hope you use the name "Emperor Butterfingers" in your games!

Re: How do you use drones?
 

Anti Planet Drones would be much more useful if the full variety of planet bombs were allowed.

How about a sneak attack with Plague Bombs mixed with Damaged Planet conditions and Nuetron bombs?
Why not add a few smart bombs too?

Why send 1 drone? Swarm them in and hope 1 gets through? Swarms can work since multiplexing generally doesn't work well for stacks (like WP, SATs and fighters) of defenders.

It certainly could offset the drone cost and change the play balance.


---------------------------------------------

DUCK! INCOMING UPGRADE!!!

Re: How do you use drones?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Wardad:
Anti Planet Drones would be much more useful if the full variety of planet bombs were allowed.

How about a sneak attack with Plague Bombs mixed with Damaged Planet conditions and Nuetron bombs?
Why not add a few smart bombs too?
<hr></blockquote>

You should be able to do this quite easily if you modify the allowed vehicle for these weapons in the component.txt file.

Re: How do you use drones?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:
Of course. I was just pointing out another difference. In games with lower settings on "maximum units in space", minefields consume a lot of it, because to be useful, they must (mostly) be deployed in space. Thinking strategically towards a large empire, if the setting isn't 20,000 or something nice like that, then the number of mines deployed has to be weighed against the limit on the number of strategically deployed (i.e., not based on planets/bases/ships) fighter and satellite swarms, etc. Some games have this limit turned down to 1000 or so, for whatever reason. Drones are at the opposite end of the scale from mines in terms of how much of this limit they consume. Not only are 100 drones an extremely powerful asset, but in general they also won't stay in space for more than a few turns (since they actively and quickly engage targets, and also expire). Of course, 100 drones are a massive (initial) expense compared to 100 mines, but my intention is to point out differences between drones and mines, since God Emperor seemed to think they were very similar, and I was trying to explain several ways in which they don't seem similar at all to me.
PvK<hr></blockquote>

PvK, I agree with all of this - it comes back to balance - if your unit limit is say even as low as 1,000, the balance of power is going to be much different to the player who builds a 1,000 mines and sits them on warp points, or the player who builds a mix of fighters, satellites, WPs and drones!

Re using drones, I dont have much experience with them yet but I play Geneva convention rules so dont shell or glass planets unless it is a mistake ("oops, not that button, bang goes another 50 million sentient lifeforms"), I use drones as fleet escort, a couple of cannon or beam weapons on each and launch them to close assault in fleet battles (with no ramming) whilst the rest of the fleet 'shell' with missiles or provide fighter support - unfair against the AI but my first experience against a human player was a 'cakewalk'