Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

Yea, yea, I know. "Why haven't you patched yet???" Because I don't want to deal with the headache it apparently invokes. EDIT: Yet.

Anyway, I was playing around with an Organic race (something I usually don't do), and I just got my OA researched. So I design a ship with 3 OA1 components, and run it in the simulator against the Rage ship design that's kicking my fleet out of system after system. How they have PPB2 and Light Cruisers so early I haven't figured out yet; they must have found a nice ruin or something. (It's only turn 27 with a low resource start!)

Well, so far so good. The ships close for 8 turns until they're in firing range. The Rage get the first shot (he's got better range than I do, which is why I need the armor). It knocks out 2 OA's, with one remaining piece of OA. I've got enough regen built up to restore them twice over, almost.

Now, here's the bug. My armor hasn't regenerated on the next turn!! I've still got armor left to regen with, and I have more than enough points built up. Sooo.... ummmm..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[ 15 April 2002: Message edited by: dumbluck ]</p>

Re: Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

I thought the OA point buildup was a bug in itself?

Re: Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dumbluck:
Now, here's the bug. My armor hasn't regenerated on the next turn!! I've still got armor left to regen with, and I have more than enough points built up. Sooo.... ummmm..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[ 15 April 2002: Message edited by: dumbluck ]<hr></blockquote>

IMHO any totally destroyed component should not regenerate.
Shields are not a component but they regenerate because there is a shield generator component.
So maybe the armor regen could be better handled (ie programed) by using a nanotech armor repair component.


----------------------------------------------

Damm, UPGRADE ALERT!!!

Re: Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

This was kind of assumed...

I tried out what you've said with three regenerating armour and PPB2s... and I filled in the gaps...

Enemy Ship

Light Cruiser
6 ion3 engines
2 Level 2 shiled generators
1 Point Defense1
4 Level 2 PPB large mount

Your Extrapolated ship

Destroyer
6 Ion3 engines
3 Organic3 armour
4 Level 4 APB

And went through Tactical Simulator.

On the first three battles, the light cruiser just ripped it up.

On the fourth one: it destroyed 2 armour and left one.

After the first turn, I checked your ship and found that the two dead OA came back to life and as soon as I fired my PPB, the HP mark went up... then down again into 0 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It still regenerates: For some reason it just doesnt show up on the Hit points level mark thing.

Re: Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

Regeneration is the entire point of Organic Armor, but if you happen to lose all your organic armor it won't regenerate.

And the destroyed icon dosen't nessesarily mean "vaporized", but possibly just "inoperable", or "ineffective due to damage". If all the keyBoards on your bridge melt down from a power surge of some sort, the bridge becomes useless. But it could be "repaired" in 90 seconds by joe schmoe running around with a box of new keyBoards.

In the case of this armor, view the damaged armor as having a hole punched through it by your laser beams or whatnot. Having holes in your armor means it is "ineffective due to damage". However, since this armor is alive, in only seconds the other OA bits can crawl over and fill in that hole, restoring the component to usefulness.

Re: Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ZeroAdunn:
I thought the OA point buildup was a bug in itself?<hr></blockquote>

Yes I think this was changed in Gold, so that OA only regenerates damage. It doesn't "build up regeneration" before getting hit, as it did in earlier Versions.

I think.

PvK

Re: Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

PvK: If that is the case, then OA is practically useless. (well, level 1, anyway) OA1 has 100kt worth of damage resistance, and regenerates 20 points of damage per combat turn. So, unless you have enough OA left after one combat turn to regenerate at least 100 points per turn, you're OA will almost never regenerate. At all. (unless the other guy is a bad aim) It is just mediocre Armor that you paid organics for instead of minerals.

Take my case for example. I get smacked around at first contact (he has better range, remember). He knocks out 2 of my 3 OA. If I want that OA to EVER regenerate, I must avoid being hit AT ALL for the next 5 turns. (20 x 5 = 100 = one regenerated armor component). So if I want the regenerative affect to do me any good, I need to have at least 5 OA left after that first hit. Which, unfortunately, doesn't leave any room for weapons.

I sincerely hope that either a) you are mistaken, or b) you are correct, but I misunderstand how OA works.

Edit: TerranC: I am quite sure that my OA did not regenerate in the pre-gold fashion. I didn't check the first time thru the simulator, but since my ship got smashed so quickly (3 turns of firing finished it off!), I ran it thru again to check why my armor did so little good. My ship got smacked (not quite as hard, but still hard enough to knock out 2 OA components). End his turn, begin mine, check to see if the armor regenerated. It hadn't. I turned tail and ran like, well, like the devil was on my tail. End turn, he pursues and thrashes me again. I now have no armor, no weapons, 3/4 engines, and one of my C&C components got hit (can't remember which one now).

If PvK is right, it fits with the circumstances. It also sucks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

[ 16 April 2002: Message edited by: dumbluck ]</p>

Re: Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

Ack! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Someone test this! If they did make this change to OA in Gold, then why on earth did they not list it in the change log, given that it is such a change in balance? It would make Organic races much much weaker than they used to be. And what of Crystalline armor? Did they change it as well so that multiple armors do not combine effect? Makes me glad I did not take organic in the gold games I've joined...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dumbluck:
PvK: If that is the case, then OA is practically useless. (well, level 1, anyway) OA1 has 100kt worth of damage resistance, and regenerates 20 points of damage per combat turn. So, unless you have enough OA left after one combat turn to regenerate at least 100 points per turn, you're OA will almost never regenerate. At all. (unless the other guy is a bad aim) It is just mediocre Armor that you paid organics for instead of minerals.

Take my case for example. I get smacked around at first contact (he has better range, remember). He knocks out 2 of my 3 OA. If I want that OA to EVER regenerate, I must avoid being hit AT ALL for the next 5 turns. (20 x 5 = 100 = one regenerated armor component). So if I want the regenerative affect to do me any good, I need to have at least 5 OA left after that first hit. Which, unfortunately, doesn't leave any room for weapons.

I sincerely hope that either a) you are mistaken, or b) you are correct, but I misunderstand how OA works.

Edit: TerranC: I am quite sure that my OA did not regenerate in the pre-gold fashion. I didn't check the first time thru the simulator, but since my ship got smashed so quickly (3 turns of firing finished it off!), I ran it thru again to check why my armor did so little good. My ship got smacked (not quite as hard, but still hard enough to knock out 2 OA components). End his turn, begin mine, check to see if the armor regenerated. It hadn't. I turned tail and ran like, well, like the devil was on my tail. End turn, he pursues and thrashes me again. I now have no armor, no weapons, 3/4 engines, and one of my C&C components got hit (can't remember which one now).

If PvK is right, it fits with the circumstances. It also sucks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

[ 16 April 2002: Message edited by: dumbluck ]<hr></blockquote>

Re: Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

Guys, calm down a tad. It makes it weaker, but even OA1 is still useful. I didn't say that partial damage recovery wasn't accumulated from turn to turn - it is. It just doesn't start until you actually take damage.

The ability to regenerate OA before it got hit was (is?) silly and unbalanced, no? This meant that a horde of OA ships was building up a massive defense ability before it ever even got hit.

I know from experience that OA (at least level 2 and 3, with more than one or two per ship) is still an extremely strong defense system (the more, the better) - a sweet counter to phased poloron beams, for instance.

Someone should test it, though.

PvK

Re: Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

Ok, I ran a test, and I think it might have been reduced a bit, but it definitely is NOT fixed. That is, if a ship with six OA3 is hit for 720 points of damage relatively early in a combat, it will be down to one armor component, and might have two armor components the next turn, but if it doesn't get hit until turn 25, and then takes 720 damage, it goes down to one component, and then the next turn shows as completely healed, because it "pre-healed" 26 x 30 x 6 = 4680 magic pre-healing points. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

I guess some players think this is ok, but I thought it was agreed this made no sense and was fixed. Oh well...

PvK

Re: Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

I wouldn't mind if it got changed to your "heals partial damage" model. I kinda didn't think of that... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif I was thinking that NO regeneration occurred until a component was destroyed... silly me.

I agree that the magic pre-healing isn't all that great a thing. But I was just a little frightened (since I've already committed this race to a pbw game...). Sorry about having a fit on you like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Back on topic, though; so am I the only one who didn't have the OA regen in the combat simulator? Could no-one confirm my bug? Maybe I was just hallucinating, then....

Re: Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

budda-bump

Re: Combat simulator bug (v1.60)
 

The thing about Organic armor that was fixed for gold was this:
Now, any OA component can heal any other OA component.

Before if you lost all examples of any component with OA ability, you would lose all OA ability for that combat.

That means, if you had one OA II on your ship and 15 OA III's, then losing the OA II at any time would make you forfeit all you regeneration abilities.
In Gold, you can now use more than one type of OA component, and have it always keep working. This benefits mods mostly.