More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Hi guys ( & gals ? ) !

Been on this game off & on about a week now. I have played many of the other space 4X games mentioned elsewhere.. MOO 1 & 2, BOTF & the new RFTS ( not a bad game actually, but the AI is not fiesty enough, outside of the scenarios ). Have not played any of the previous iterations of SE though.

I have read the printed manual, & browsed the PDF one, plus I have been reading some of the threads here.

Questions, comments & observations...

If you have excess resource production, beyond your storage capacity.. are they just "lost in space" ? ( this could be important in a finite resource game) Is the 50,000 storage that you start with, just part of the game ? or is there some structure that I am missing ?

What is the rationale for spaceships using so many minerals as opposed to the other types ? Is this just a designer built bottleneck.. or is there some thinking behind it. I am just starting .. but I can't see how you would run out of the other stuff.

There seems to be a vague & tenuous relationship between the type of planet & the type/amounts of resources found on it. Very vague .. very tenuous.

What is the true value of population ? There doesn't seem to be any relationship between numbers & manning ( aliening ? ) facilities. I take it that they are there for something aside from scoring. Along with that, what are the major & minor determinents of happiness/unhappiness ? Why is it that they don't eat anything ?

Is there a time limit on the tactical display, or if you come in on a planet that is loaded for bear.. are you just screwed ?

How do ships gain experience ? I gained some in various fights, but when I came in on a planet, had a tough fight & took some losses, but after I had prevailed.. I checked my ships & none had moved beyond novice ( 0 ) . Is there a table or something that I can check out ?

When I obsolete older marks of ships, they stay as potential choices on the contruction qeues. This is really irritating.. & confusing too ! What am I doing wrong here ?

Some comments on modding... while I congratulate the people that have the time, ability & talent for this.. I would like to point out that it can get in the way of building a player base for MP. Several months ago when I was active playing MP ( multiplayer ) MGE ( Civ 2 ).. we used to run across this with just a half dozen options. Given all the options with this game plus the mods .. you can see what I am getting at. Opposed to this is modding the AI.. hopefully to improve it.. While I am a big advocate of playing MP... if your life allows for it, I think everybody realises that the vast, vast majority of all games are SP... so AI improvements are always helpful. Of course .. I don't mod, so I might be talking out of my head ( or some other orfice ) here.

This brings me to another question... is there a standard game for MP play ? If so what is it ? I have book marked the PBW site. Is there a preferred style of play there ? Another question.. how many SEIV MP players are there out there ? Be honest now.

If you want to refer me to the PDF manual, a thread, an article, or some other site(s) .. please do.

A truly dumb newbie...

Dog

BTW... I have SEIV Gold ver. 1.67

[ 26 April 2002: Message edited by: Dogberry ]</p>

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

1. Pretty Much yes. It's surplus. You can always build new warships or facilities if you think it's wasteful.

1a. Yes. You start with it. You can build extra storage but that original 50,000 stays. with or without storage facilities.

2. You build ships out of steel; not out of plants or uranium.

2a. You can run out of stuff pretty soon. Especially Radioactives as you gain technology.

3. It's randomly Generated. You seem to see a pattern because Rock planets are generated more than Gas or Ice. (I think...)

4. Population produces stuff on your colonies. A colony with 0 population will not make or generate anything. It also increases the production rate as the population increases.

4a. Depends on what type of Happiness your race enjoys. It describes them on the very Last window of race creation. (Happiness Types)

Peaceful - likes new colonies, new ships, treaties. Hates wars, plagues and destruction of stuff.

Bloodthirsty - Likes destruction, Likes wars. Does not like peace or treaties.

Neutral - doesn't like anything except isolation.

Troops and the Number of ships in a system also determine happiness. If you have Partnership treaties with all known races of the galaxy, that will add happiness if you are peaceful. Lots of Battle victories also add happiness.

4b. If they did you'd have a shortfall. One farm for 4 billion... Yeesh.

5. Huh? I don't understand your question.

6. Fight, Fight, Fight. Until you research Advanced Military Science and build Ship training facilities. Your fleets also gain facilities, although in Gold, a lot slower.

6b. Ask some of the vets of this forum. Im sure they'd know with their modding experience.

7. Click the Only Latest tab.

8. The standard of Multiplayer was Play by Email before PBW came along. In that, you had to do what PBW would do for you instantly, Manually.

PBW is the preferred choice I think, since it is easy to learn, after you understand the basic mechanics of it. (Kinda like the game itself)

There is TCP/IP for Gold, but that is for privately arranged games, there isn't a main server to go and join a game.

Thank you, come again.

[ 26 April 2002: Message edited by: TerranC ]</p>

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

"If you have excess resource production, beyond your storage capacity.. are they just "lost in space" ? ( this could be important in a finite resource game) Is the 50,000 storage that you start with, just part of the game ? or is there some structure that I am missing ?"

Extra resources go poof. The 50,000 storage is built-in (and modable).

"What is the rationale for spaceships using so many minerals as opposed to the other types ? Is this just a designer built bottleneck.. or is there some thinking behind it. I am just starting .. but I can't see how you would run out of the other stuff."

Design bottleneck. It IS possible to run low on one of the others, especially if you play an organic race or don't built enough resourcers.

"There seems to be a vague & tenuous relationship between the type of planet & the type/amounts of resources found on it. Very vague .. very tenuous."

It's more or less random.

"What is the true value of population ? There doesn't seem to be any relationship between numbers & manning ( aliening ? ) facilities. I take it that they are there for something aside from scoring. Along with that, what are the major & minor determinents of happiness/unhappiness ? Why is it that they don't eat anything ?"

More population = more production. More happyness = more production. It's assumed that each planet produces enough food for it's population, or if it can't your invisible civilian economy does.

"Is there a time limit on the tactical display, or if you come in on a planet that is loaded for bear.. are you just screwed ? "

30 turns.

"How do ships gain experience ? I gained some in various fights, but when I came in on a planet, had a tough fight & took some losses, but after I had prevailed.. I checked my ships & none had moved beyond novice ( 0 ) . Is there a table or something that I can check out ?"

They gain experience by being missed and killing with DIRECT FIRE weapons. You won't gain experience using missiles! (makes since, since missiles gain nothing from experience anyway- they always hit)

"When I obsolete older marks of ships, they stay as potential choices on the contruction qeues. This is really irritating.. & confusing too ! What am I doing wrong here ? "

There's a "hide obselete" button. Push it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

"Some comments on modding... while I congratulate the people that have the time, ability & talent for this.. I would like to point out that it can get in the way of building a player base for MP. Several months ago when I was active playing MP ( multiplayer ) MGE ( Civ 2 ).. we used to run across this with just a half dozen options. Given all the options with this game plus the mods .. you can see what I am getting at. Opposed to this is modding the AI.. hopefully to improve it.. While I am a big advocate of playing MP... if your life allows for it, I think everybody realises that the vast, vast majority of all games are SP... so AI improvements are always helpful. Of course .. I don't mod, so I might be talking out of my head ( or some other orfice ) here."

It doesn't fragment the community THAT much. Hell, I'm either in, running, or planning games on two different Versions of SE4, on three different mods! Most people just play standard anyway.

Phoenix-D

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Just another experienced solo-ist (yeah, yeah, har, har) here, who is new to the board, culture, and multiplayer, but I have some ideas on the population inquiry.

The way I see it, every 1,000,000 block of population is it's own arcology, that's why it weighs so much (ha!). It produces enough food, clothes, entertainment, and pharmaceuticals to keep it going. They produce their own power and are so big on recycling that they can keep going in cargo holds in space.

For most people in the world, the only job they have is providing for other peoples sustenance, and reproduction (whoo-hoo). Some of them are army reservists. Kind of like real life.

Your planetary facilities are big (BIG!) and mostly automated. They really only need someone to push the buttons. 1,000,000 people is enough that someone is there to push the buttons in the correct manner, less is not enough to figure out how to turn it on. It's something they're doing in their spare time, like fishing.

However, as you get truly obscene numbers of people on the planet (it starts at what, 50,000,000?) there are enough people pushing the buttons on the facilities that they figure out how to push them more efficiently. Population bonus time.

That farm on you homeworld is not producing consumables. It is making hemp, rubber, are peanut oil for the hoses, gaskets, and stuff in you industry.

Similarly, every unit is not just that unit, it is a modular support and maintainance harness that interfaces between the unit and whatever is carrying it. An unbilicus _and_ housing for the pilot.

Of course, that's just my paradigm. I could be wrong.

[ 26 April 2002: Message edited by: Loser ]</p>

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Loser:
The way I see it, every 1,000,000 block of population is it's own arcology, that's why it weighs so much (ha!). It produces enough food, clothes, entertainment, and pharmaceuticals to keep it going. They produce their own power and are so big on recycling that they can keep going in cargo holds in space.<hr></blockquote>

Well, if you do the math, 1M population = 5kT; 5kT = 10,000,000lbs; 1 person (alien) = 10lbs. And that's just the people http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, that is a good way of thinking about it on planets. The standard belief about population on cargo ships is that they're cryo-frozen, so they can't exactly reproduce on the ship, and don't take up as much space as "living" people (aliens) would take up.

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Pardon, the "(ha!)" was meant to indicate my disdane for the low population mass. I like to think of them as alive but subject to 1-to-1 birth-for-death population control, like on a max-ed planet. Three cheers for contraception.

If they are cryo-ed, they would not feel it when I jettison them into space. I do want them to feel it. I wouldn't experience much less self-loathing if they didn't feel it.

Additionally, what if the 't' was a 'metric tonne'? How much would each savage weigh (mass) then?

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dogberry:
Another question.. how many SEIV MP players are there out there ? <hr></blockquote>

PBW had 300 active Users yesterday and 453 Last week. That is the amount of people who have logged in to the site.

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Thanks for the quick replies .. folks. Gonna be laid low this week for a operation ... nothing serious. So I will have some time off. Sure to have more questions.

BTW... on the ships/minerals thing, I meant for maintanence.. not for initial production.

Good gaming,
Dog

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dogberry:
BTW... on the ships/minerals thing, I meant for maintanence.. not for initial production.
<hr></blockquote>

Maintenance is just some per cent of initial cost.

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Just got an "out of range" error about 100-120 turns into a standard game.

BTW..the figures for PBW look pretty good for MP .. for a game like this. There is probably two or three times as much actual activity out there. Has anybody tried hosting games by using ICQ to develop a player list ?

Dog

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

"Has anybody tried hosting games by using ICQ to develop a player list ?"

Why? PBW is much superior.

Phoenix-D

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

There seems to be two schools of thought about SE IV MP:

1) People who insisted the game needed TCP/IP support, which was only added in Gold;

2) People who were baffled why anyone wanted to play it that way.

TCP/IP games have a Chat function, which I suppose would give the same real-time interaction as ICQ.

PBW also supports a Real-Time Client, which Admiral developed independently of Malfador's work on TCP/IP. This was included in the Extras folder on the Gold CD.

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Have not really checked out PBW yet.. will later on. Was just curious how the stand alone IP games worked.. if they do. When I was active with Civ 2 .. I used to host a lot of games, using ICQ & my list of players. Frequently we would pass the game along as players dropped out & new ones came on. Sometimes this went as smooth as silk... other times it did not.

Well.. time for a couple of pills & an oz. of wine.

later,

Dog

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Got another "Range Check Error". Is this my Version of Windows ( 98 SE ) or is this something else ? Perhaps the fighter thing mentioned elsewhere on the MB. I don't normally autosave.. but I will now.

I must admit this is quite the game. It has tons of depth. BOTF had "micro".. this has depth. I forced the Krill to hand over 10,000 Kt of minerals & they did so, but were quite sarcastic about it. .. hehe

Question.. does Fleet Training have any effect when you are using the tactical mode ? If so .. I assume that you have to keep your formation(s) together to get the benefit. I have been breaking them up at the start to better observe how the individual components behave. Also, when you "dismiss" a fleet .. does that fleet lose all of its experience ?

I notice that there are planet descriptions such as "thought to be the final resting place of two ancient cultures" .. but does not contain ruins. Are there stories in this game ?.. or is this just "colour". Some of my foundest gaming memories have to do with an old DOS title.. Starflight 2.

What I have seen of the way the AI operates, just reinforces my opinion that the most fruitful modding efforts would be there. It seems to do "ok" tactically, but really lousy at handling its forces in either an operationally or a strategically competent manner. I can't really make any observations on how it does on exploration, production, construction or the tech tree. Again .. I am no expert, but to paraphrase the Duke of Wellington .. " they came at us the same old way, and we beat them in the same old way."

One minor way to help out the AI.. would to be, not always giving the human the first move/shot.

Another thing that I noticed is that even a lousy frigate with relatively primitive tech can really hammer a planet. Has anyone ever thought of using some sort of population to space ratio.. to make those Last bunch of pop. points hard to kill off ?
That way .. if you want the planet.. you would have to send in the Marines to finish the job.

Finally.. it would be nice to have the way you set up a game, to automatically become your new defaults. That way, unless you want to change something.. you would not have to go through the entire menu & push all those buttons.

I had another question, but I have forgotten it. LOL

Having fun....

Dog

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> does Fleet Training have any effect when you are using the tactical mode ? If so .. I assume that you have to keep your formation(s) together to get the benefit. <hr></blockquote> Fleet Training does count in Tactical, but AFAIK the ships don't have to stay in formation. I could be wrong; it's never occured to me to test that. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I have been breaking them up at the start to better observe how the individual components behave. <hr></blockquote> Having all ships break formation often improves their battle performance. Trying to stay in formation when the leader changes direction can really mess things up, especially in tight formations. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Also, when you "dismiss" a fleet .. does that fleet lose all of its experience ? <hr></blockquote> Yes. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I notice that there are planet descriptions such as "thought to be the final resting place of two ancient cultures" .. but does not contain ruins. Are there stories in this game ?.. or is this just "colour". <hr></blockquote> Just color. Ruins always have a standing stones icon, and appear in the (F4) Planets/Special window.

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dogberry:

...I must admit this is quite the game. It has tons of depth...
<hr></blockquote>

TURBO TAX has more depth, but the replay s--ks.

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Wardad:
I don't know whether that's supposed to be praise or critisism, but it's humorous none the less!

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Ok... getting a little more sophisticated now. What exactly are the effects of Counter-Intel 1, 2 & 3 ? Are they accumalative ? Will be starting to play some MP fairly soon & this could be real important in a more mature game.

I know the AI is pretty much a complete doofus in this area.

Dog

[ May 14, 2002, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Dogberry ]

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How I think it works:

When enemy completes an intel project against you, SE IV subtracts its cost from accumulated intel points in one of your counter-intel projects. If result is negative, intel project hits you. Higher level projects can have more points and stop high-level sabotage which can cost more than full low-level counter-intel project.

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and you have some counter-intel bonus (10-30% i am not sure)

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was me not long ago and your statement is absolutely correct. You can change this by editing the intel project files:
Effect Amount := 1
in the counter intel projects will give you only one effective point for defense, values of 2 or 3 will double or triple the effect of your counter intel points.

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

ISTR that the higher-level counterintel projects also add a multiplier to defense. In other words, I think each point spent for counterintel level 2 counts as 2 points of defense, and each point of counterintel level 3 counts as 3 points of defense. (And the settings.txt file shows that intel defense gets a 20% bonus on top of that).

Someone on this board claims to have tested & verified the above, but I can't remember who did it or when...

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Thanks guys... I guess that answers my basic question, that there is a benefit to say .. running Cointel 1 & 2 concurrently as opposed to just running one or the other.

Dog

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and you have some counter-intel bonus (10-30% i am not sure)[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The default bonus for intelligence 'defense' is 20 percent, and it's set in SETTINGS.TXT like many other things.

Intelligence Defense Modifier Percent := 120

There is an additional 'gotcha' to the use of counter-intelligence though. If all of your counter-intelligence projects terminate at the same time -- due to 'filling up' with points -- a bunch of enemy projects will be completed against you on that turn even if you're outspending those enemies by a huge margin. You have to find a way to manage your counter-intel in a way that keeps all of the projects from terminating on the same turn.

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, it's probably better to just run multiple Cointel 2 projects.

Another possibility is to start with just 1 Counter-Intel project (highest level you can); keep just that 1 project going until it's 2-3 turns from "completing". Then add a new counter-intel project, make sure it's at the top of the list, and turn OFF the "Divide Points Evenly". All your points will go into the new project, and the almost-completed project will be sitting there with lots of counter-intel points just waiting for incoming intelligence attempts. After building up a couple of counter-intel projects, I frequently put a cheap intel project or two of my own at the front of the list so I can whittle away the enemy's counter-intel; in a major intel war, you just have to make sure SOME of your points still go into counter-intel.

Oh yeah - make sure "Repeat Projects" is ALWAYS on for the Intel/Counter-intel projects...

[ May 16, 2002, 14:58: Message edited by: DirectorTsaarx ]

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

This is OT, but there is really good traffic at this site .. for a game like this.

Dog

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

NEVER let your counter-intel projects fill up. Take them to about 80% or 90%. If you complete them, they are gone! They only operate while active.

Once a project reaches that 80% or 90% level move it to the back of the queue and start another (or go on the offensive). When you are attacked, you will notice that your counter-intel project at the end of the queue will actually decrease in value. What I do is keep my strongest project at the back, and my weakest at the front. This takes a little management each turn when you are being attacked but will keep you safe for a long time. (In fact, only if your opponent(s) is attacking you turn after turn with more points than you can replace each turn, are you in any kind of trouble at all.) When tail-end-Charlie drops, swap it around so that you always have the best project at the end of the queue. Meanwhile, you are building up the one at the front.

Nothing is foolproof but this is a good way to keep the enemy at bay.

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

I actually take that a step further. I fill up a counter intel project (the highest capable at the time) to about 80%, then move it to the back and put in another counter intel project. When taht one gets to 80 %, I move it to the back and fill up the front with offensive intel, with the overflow going to one of the counter intel projects. If one of the counter intels gets depleted, or starts to fill too much for that matter, I switch them. This allows me to do offensive intel while being protected from enemy intel.

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Just had a bunch of comp players up & declare war ( Empire too large )... w/o any warning at all ! This included a partnership & others that were feeling "brotherly". I assume this is normal AI behavior.. or was there something else at work ?

Was building up my navy for a war with a hostile AI... guess he will just have to wait. LOL

Woof ? .. Dog

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

MEGA EVIL EMPIRE

It strikes you when you least expect it.
It strikes you when you least need it.

It strikes you when you are the biggest empire in proportions... if you are about 3x bigger in scores than the second place empire, You trigger MEGA EVIL EMPIRE.

What It happens is this:

As you get more powerful, you tend to get more scores. when you hit a cirtain score bigger than the second player, all AI declare war on you thinking that you are going to swallow up the whole galaxy and their empires. Even though you give them countless stuff and even get your score down; it takes a long time for them cool off as the AI anger drops below 50 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Even though you want to be benign, you will have no choice but to fight.

Good luck, but if you are triple in scores, you will have no problem beating them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: Note to meself; use the darn preview.

[ May 19, 2002, 20:02: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Was kinda planning that .. swallowing them up I mean, but at my own pace. Within 3-4 turns, I expect a surrender from my ex-"partner" ( if divorce was that easy ! ). If he surrenders I suppose I don't get his Shard technology. Can I get this ? What do I have to do ? Capture a ship ? A planet ?

Arf !

Dog

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can only capture a racial tech if you have that Advanced Trait yourself.

So in this case, you can't get shard tech unless you took Crystallurgy at the start of the game.

A couple people have done tech mods that make the racial techs researchable, but I don't recall which mods.

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

If you want access to racial technology (from racial abilities that you don't possess) you have to go into the tech area file. Go to the desired tech area and change 'Racial Area' to equal 0 (zero). This will allow you to reverse engineer the tech or recieve it through surrender.

You can even do this with your current game. Just shut it down, make the changes and start it back up again.

[ May 19, 2002, 21:52: Message edited by: QuarianRex ]

Re: More stupid newbie tricks ( questions ) !
 

Thanks !! ... I'll probably play the game as is. Ironically, I just more-or-less marooned one of the Phong ships in a sys where I am building a "Boarding Ship" ... oh well. Gonna try an invasion or two before I ask him to surrender.

Ya'all are really very helpful. Thanks again.

Dog