(Counter-) Intel question.
 

I attack an enemy with several sabotage projects and spend a total of 570000 intel points per turn. My enemy produces a toal of 105000 intel points per turn (AI bonus included), which are divided among twelve counter intel projects.
All my projects are defeated over several turns. Now what I do not understand is that my enemy seems to use only about 130000 intel points to defeat all my projects (if I calculate how many points have been accumulated in his counter-intel projects from turn to turn). The Intel Defense Modifier Percent is unchanged 120, so I would expect it takes 475000 points to defeat my 570000 attacking point and not something around 130000.

Any idea what is the problem???

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
You will have to wear down all of his stored defenses before your first attack will succeed.<hr></blockquote>

So how do you "wear down" his stored defenses? Do the poiunts you spend on attack subtract from his stored points? Or does an attack of yours that complets cancel one defense of his, regardless of poinst stored, or produced.

I'm still very confused about all this. I pretty much just throw points at intel attacks and counter intel and hold my breath. I am usually more supriced when my attacks succed than when they fail.

Geoschmo

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

A successful defense will subtract the cost of the attack from your stored defense points.

I am not sure what happens if the defender has some points, but not quite enough. You will be likely to find out who the attacker is even if you can't stop the attack itself.

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

What if the defender has two projects going and has enough points stored between the two of them to stop the attack, but not enough in either one to stop the attack? Will the attack succeed? If not what happens to the points? Do they coem from both prohects equally or all from one and the rest from the other.

WHat happens to a counter intel project when all the points are depleted? Does it then go away?

If all this is correct it really is more imporant how long your projects have been going then how many points you are producing each turn.

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What if the defender has two projects going and has enough points stored between the two of them to stop the attack, but not enough in either one to stop the attack? Will the attack succeed? If not what happens to the points? Do they coem from both prohects equally or all from one and the rest from the other.<hr></blockquote>I would assume the worst, and then be pleasantly surprised http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
I think depletion happens from left to right, but I haven't seen much intel action in my games.

When a counter-intel project is depleted, it stays where it is. That saves a ton of micromanagement.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If all this is correct it really is more imporant how long your projects have been going then how many points you are producing each turn.<hr></blockquote>Well, multiply the two together. Moderate points for a moderate time is better than tons of points for a short while, or a handful of points for decades.

Of course, if you produce more than your opponent(s), then it dosen't matter how long you've been storing up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Of course, if you produce more than your opponent(s), then it dosen't matter how long you've been storing up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr></blockquote>

I always assumed that, but if everything else you are saying is correct then that is not exactly true. A player producing fewer points that stores them up by working on several attack projects over a long period of time can have sucess against a defending empire that produces more points if they dont do a good job of maintaing there counter intel projects so that they don't lose the stored points. Or am I still misunderstanding something?

Sounds like I need to do some testing this weekend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It never amazes me how I can still be learning stuff about this game after a year and a half.

Geoschmo

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
...Of course, if you produce more than your opponent(s), then it dosen't matter how long you've been storing up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr></blockquote>

Is that really accurate? Not always IMO.

What about if your opponent is producing less intel points, yet sharing them equally across 12 intel projects each worth 50K points. They all finish on the same turn - that's 600,000 points thrown at you all at the same time. You'd have to have (to be safe) 3 CounterIntell III's almost done to protect against all those.

That's why I generally will have half my queue (6) counterintel projects (of the highest level I can) running at the same time. 6 CI III's can store up to 1,500,000 points (250K each). IIRC the key to counterintell is STORED points, not produced points.

&lt;/$.02&gt;

EDIT: Beat me to it Geo....

[ 26 April 2002: Message edited by: rdouglass ]</p>

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by askan:
well somebody shoot me down in flames if i'm wrong but

1. Counter Intel 1 counts as 1 defence per point spent
2. Counter Intel 2 counts as 2 defence per point spent.
3. Counter Intel 3 counts as 3 defence per point spent.

So for 130000 points on Counter Intel 3 you get 390000 defence. If this had been saved up for a few turns before you started your attack then it'll take a few more turns to bring the defence down.

Askan<hr></blockquote>

Yes, that's what I have read somewhere quite a time ago. But it was never confirmed that the higher counter intel projects act as multiplier of your intel points IIRC. Did anybody test this?
It seems intel is still the most mysterious area of SE IV.

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Q:


Yes, that's what I have read somewhere quite a time ago. But it was never confirmed that the higher counter intel projects act as multiplier of your intel points IIRC. Did anybody test this?
It seems intel is still the most mysterious area of SE IV.<hr></blockquote>

No, I'm pretty sure the only advantage is the increased storage capacity. I remember reading recently about CI I being able to prevent Intel II (and III) projects.

CI I 50,000
CI II 100,000
CI III 250,000

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

well somebody shoot me down in flames if i'm wrong but

1. Counter Intel 1 counts as 1 defence per point spent
2. Counter Intel 2 counts as 2 defence per point spent.
3. Counter Intel 3 counts as 3 defence per point spent.

So for 130000 points on Counter Intel 3 you get 390000 defence. If this had been saved up for a few turns before you started your attack then it'll take a few more turns to bring the defence down.

Askan

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

Counter-Intel gets that +20% modifier for defense, and it can store up points.
If you have 12 Counter intel 3's, (500 K each), you can store up to 6 million defense points.

You will have to wear down all of his stored defenses before your first attack will succeed.

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

Askan is right!
I made a test by modifying the intel projects:

Name := Counter - Intelligence Level 3
Description := Defensive preparations within an empire to prevent enemy intelligence operations. Counter-Intelligence will prevent attacks while it is in progress.
Group := Defense
Cost := 500000
Type := Intelligence Defense
Effect Amount := 3
Num Source Messages := 1
Source Message 1 := Our counter-intelligence operations have prevented intelligence attacks by the [%TargetEmpireName].
Num Target Messages := 1
Target Message Title 1 := Intelligence Project Defeated
Target Message 1 := One of our intelligence projects against the [%SourceEmpireName] was defeated by counter-intelligence defenses.
Source Picture := IntelSabotageByUs
Target Picture := IntelSabotageByUs
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Applied Intelligence
Tech Level Req 1 := 2

Changing the "Effect Amount" to 1 in all counter intel projects and my enemy needs now 480000 intel points per turn to defeat my attacking projects as I expected.
So a counter intel project 3 indeed multiplies your defense intel points by 3. And if you have a medium AI bonus and the standard defense modifier in der settings of 120% this gives the AI a factor of 3x3x1.2 = 10.8 for the intel defense. You need 10.8x more attacking intel points as a human player than the AI needs for his defense!! IMHO this is too much and I will probably keep the "Effect Amount" for all projects to 1.

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

Can I ask a couple of clarifying questions; my mind seems sluggish this morning.

As the higher level counter intel projects produce two and three times the counter intel that level ones does, should you immediately upgrade to them as you get them? The down side being that you will lose what you have stored up in the lower level project.

Does this not make an offensive intel strategy pretty tough to get away with? You need at least three times what your opponent has before you can expect to do any real damage. At least with a more evenly matched fleet, you can do some sneaky things, but in intel, you have no such options. It seems to be pretty pure numbers.

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

I'm sorry but I really don't get all this. Do you loose all the stored points when you complete a project? And if so, why? I can't see the logic in that. One turn you have a masssive defence and the next you're a sitting duck?!

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Q:
Askan is right!
<hr></blockquote>

Well f*ck me gently with a chainsaw http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Intel is on the verge of being as useless as base contruction and bigger weapon platforms, cause its only effective against technologically backward or small empires.
Personally I'de be happy with a mod that had no intel defence at all accept for the intel sabotage project and only left the information gathering projects in.

So I'de leave -
Force Concentrations
Queue Concentrations
Ship Blueprints
Covert Recon
Census Thefts
Intelligence Sabotage
Communcation Taps
Embassy Taps
Empire Star Charts
Empire Archives
Unit Blueprints
Tech Reports


Now that would be alot more fun.


Askan

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by John Baxter:
I'm sorry but I really don't get all this. Do you loose all the stored points when you complete a project? And if so, why? I can't see the logic in that. One turn you have a masssive defence and the next you're a sitting duck?!<hr></blockquote>

Yep it is quite bizzare.
I tend to fatten up a counter intel project by letting "residue" points fall into it. When it gets near completion I move it to the back of the list so it never gets any more points. I turn divide off.

Askan

Re: (Counter-) Intel question.
 

Saxon for your first question:
No, I think it is better to keep the old low level counter intel and put it at the end of your intel project list (highest project number). The attacking enemy projects will first deplete the counter intel project at the end of the list. Once it is depleted then you can cancel it. Deactivate the option "divide points equally" and all your available intel points will go to the first project and there you put the new high level conter intel. Just make sure that it is not completed within the next turn or you will loose your points!
Your second question: That's exactely my opinion too and therefore I changed it now in my ongoing game. The effect is enormous: My attacking intel projects have now a realistic chance to succeed, but I also have to spend much more of my intel points to defend myself against the attacking projects of my enemies.