Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Download it from the Proportions mod web page.

I thought this was going to be a small release a week or more ago, but it turned out to be a lot more. The basics are more or less unchanged, and old 2.0-2.1 games should be upgradable without particular weirdness, but there are several extensions and additions in a number of areas (see below).

Players wanting acceleration to planetary development will I think find that a lot more speed is possible now with research into Cargo & new Starliner modules, and use of the new lower-level urban facilities.

The AI has been improved in a number of ways. John Sullivan has started helping me test and tweak the AI, and has been spending a lot of time figuring out how to get the AI to handle Proportions better. His Abbidon weren't quite ready for this release, but they are getting close and I expect they will be quite good in 2.3, which will appear as soon as they are ready.

Version 2.2:

---------
Gameplay:
---------
* Changed drone Anti-Ship Warheads to only be usable against ships and
bases (not fighters/satellites/planets/etc).
* Extended Temporal Shifters three tech levels with diminishing results,
to fall in with null space boost to adapt to Proportions armor. Note
that Temporal Shifters are easier to research and to build but shorter
ranged and somewhat less destructive than null space projectors.
* Control and life support components will no longer upgrade to more
expensive types when a design is upgraded.
* Adjusted speed of Light Missile System IV to originally intended speed.
* Increased research cost of Neural Computer Interface and added several
levels of development to it with different cost/size shifts and new
side-effects.
* Decreased research cost of Massive ancient techs, and increased their
maximums so they could actually be developed.
* Extended Massive Shield Depleting Weapons to tech level 6.
* Increased cargo & supply storage tech branch to level 5, and added
a new cargo component type, Starliner Module, that makes some larger
population transport capacities possible with advanced research, and
makes population transports a little easier to design and also to
maintain. Starliner modules require both Cargo and their own Starliner
tech area to be researched. This was done mainly to make it possible
to adjust the AI to build transport hulls without using Starliner
modules.
* Doubled organics costs of (racial tech) Organic Generation Facilities.
* Rearranged (racial tech) Solar Generator facilities. The more advanced
ones now cost more to build, and they now produce more rads, fewer
organics, and fewer still minerals.
* Added new non-racial-tech Solar Power Plant facilities. These are
inexpensive but produce only rads, not organics or minerals.
* Increased costs of higher-level Monolith facilities.
* Added four new cultural facilities below the previous "City" facility,
and re-named "City" to "Major City". See Major City, City, Minor City,
Colonial Community, and Settlement.
* Cultural facilities are now broken into four families to limit abuses
of the current SE4 facility upgrade mechanic: Settlement/Community,
Cities/Metro/Megalopoli, Arcology, and Cultural Centers. Upgrades are
allowed within but not between these Groups.
* Added Psychic Intelligence Centers.
* Increased size and cost of high-tech combat sensors and ECM, to make
smaller Versions a more viable alternative on larger ships.
* Added Ionic Shield Generators (provide protection against ionic
engine-destroying weapons.
---------
Cosmetic:
---------
* Expanded descriptions of cultural facilities to better explain what
these represent.
* Corrected cosmetic typo in "Spatial Rupture 2".
* Fixed cosmetic duplicate Rad Storage III.
* Removed some bogus warnings for system-wide ability duplication from
some urban facilities.
* Separated small combat sensors and ECM from large Versions when "only
latest" is selected, instead of only offering small ones.
---
AI:
---
* Added ability to have AI use efficient engines.
* Added ability to have AI choose between light and capital missiles.
* Added ability of AI to deploy Mental Flailers after Allegiance
Subverters have been developed.
* Implemented planned method for AI to build intel centers.
* Implemented planned method for AI to build system happiness facilities.
* Stopped AI loading some AFV weapons on fighters.
* Enhanced Amon'krie AI.
* Enhanced Neutral AI's.
* Modified Drushocka AI.
* Enhanced Terran AI.
* Enhanced some default AI files that will improve all AI's.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Oh, I forgot - the Norak AI got tweaked somewhat, as well.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

I like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Let me be the first to say:

Wahooooooooo!

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

PvK, please either move Organic generation into a separate group or at least put them below Organic farms in facility.txt.

I think 99.9% people play SE IV with "show only latest" on in constraction window. As it is now, organig generation facilities are invisible, being override by organic farms. To build them, I must to uncheck "latest only", put them in queue and swith "latest only" back. Extremely inconvinient. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Even worse, every time I research, for example, space yards II and press "upgrade facilities", SE IV tries to replace organig generation V with organic farms III http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

I still do not like the lack of research requirements for Major city. The fact that several cultural facilities are available from start gives me headache: I must to switch off and switch on "onlly latest" if I want to build cheap town and constantly monitor construction every time I hit "upgrade facilities".
Worst of all, it makes impossible to programm AI to build cheap cultural facilities first and upgrade them later (it always build th latest available). PVK, please assign some research requirements to low-level facilities. IMHO, it will make this mod even more flexible and interesting.

I am rather confused with "unresearcheable tech."
It is only to make older save games compatible with 2.2, right ? Can I delete all these dummy facilities if I want to start a new game ?

I think there is a type in "researcheable" Archology (one in the bottom of the list). It is assign to a wrong facility group than city-megapolice-metropolice facilities. I am pretty sure it is a type, but please check it.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

PvK,
As always, your effort in this endeavor is appreciated.
This is the only mod my wife and I play. Looking forward to the AI tweaks so that I can port them over to Atrocities' Star Trek races (another excellent magnum opus).

[ 07 May 2002: Message edited by: wr8th ]</p>

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by oleg:
PvK, please either move Organic generation into a separate group or at least put them below Organic farms in facility.txt.

I think 99.9% people play SE IV with "show only latest" on in constraction window. As it is now, organig generation facilities are invisible, being override by organic farms. To build them, I must to uncheck "latest only", put them in queue and swith "latest only" back. Extremely inconvinient. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Even worse, every time I research, for example, space yards II and press "upgrade facilities", SE IV tries to replace organig generation V with organic farms III http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif
<hr></blockquote>

Heh, sorry about that. Yes, I'll make org generators a separate family. I never rely on the automatic "upgrade facilities" function, so I never noticed this.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I still do not like the lack of research requirements for Major city. The fact that several cultural facilities are available from start gives me headache: I must to switch off and switch on "onlly latest" if I want to build cheap town and constantly monitor construction every time I hit "upgrade facilities".
Worst of all, it makes impossible to programm AI to build cheap cultural facilities first and upgrade them later (it always build th latest available). PVK, please assign some research requirements to low-level facilities. IMHO, it will make this mod even more flexible and interesting.<hr></blockquote>

Ya, I see how that could help - I'll add an extremely cheap tech requirement so this can be controlled. Thanks for the suggestion.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I am rather confused with "unresearcheable tech."
It is only to make older save games compatible with 2.2, right ? Can I delete all these dummy facilities if I want to start a new game ?
<hr></blockquote>

Yes, that is an invisible and unattainable racial tech, that hides some items from selection without removing them, to allow older games to be upgraded to 2.2 without problems. It's only visible when browsing the data files or if you have "show all tech" on and are studying the tech tree database in Help. If you are starting a new game from scratch and playing by yourself, you can hack those out of the mod and it will work fine.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I think there is a type in "researcheable" Archology (one in the bottom of the list). It is assign to a wrong facility group than city-megapolice-metropolice facilities. I am pretty sure it is a type, but please check it.<hr></blockquote>

I think you mean "typo" and "facility family", rather than "type" and "facility group". Assuming you mean that the facility family is "62," while the cities before it are "61," that isn't a typo. As the readme says, there are four categories of cultural facilities, and they are in different families in order to prevent abusive upgrades. That is, you can't upgrade a city to an Arcology; you have to start from scratch. There are two reasons for this. The first is that SE4 has a lame way of calculating the cost in cases like this (I put in a request to change this), so it would be a cheat that would undermine the hierarchy. The other reason is that an Arcology is defined as a completely different kind of city, which wouldn't save construction time by having an old-style city to start from.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

"I think you mean "typo" and "facility family", rather than "type" and "facility group". Assuming you mean that the facility family is "62," while the cities before it are "61," that isn't a typo."

Yes, it is me who makes typos ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Thanks for clarification. They have been in the same group before, that's why my question. I was also puzzled why the very first item in the facility family 62 has a roman numerical 8, just like an extention of the Last item in family 61, which has the roman numerical 7.

I want to make my own small modifications to facilities, but get lost with "unresearcheble tech." facilities. Deleting them would greatly help me, thanks a lot ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I also had a funny experience with Proportion' AI:
Xi'Chung started in next system to me and become extremely agitated from the very start. At the moment I founded the first colony, we have been already at war. Xi'chung send a fleet of 8 ships to attack my colony, which had only 1 weapon platform. I thought it was doomed, but during the battle Xi'chung ships (all with direct fire weapons) did not attack planet but run into corners ! Glory to the divine wind that protect our people http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif !!!

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Thanks again, PVK.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Ya, the Roman numerals are left over from the original idea to be able to upgrade all of them, before I realized that it would create a cheat and make the middle levels nearly pointless.

The unresearchable urban facilities are all at the top of the facs file. The enabled ones are all together near the bottom of the facs file.

I'll have to investigate the Xi'Chung - I think the default AI is not actually not genocidal, unlike in the standard set. Since glassing and rebuilding a planet is a lot more wasteful than it is in the current game, and in general I think only genocidal races should exterminate millions of civillians, I changed the default for most races. Of course, the Xi'Chung should be an exception to this, according to their description. So, you have until 2.3 before they get mean... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:


Heh, sorry about that. Yes, I'll make org generators a separate family. I never rely on the automatic "upgrade facilities" function, so I never noticed this.

PvK<hr></blockquote>

So riddle me this, Batman...how do you upgrade you facilities? How are you doing it? Is it possible for me to upgrade a Minor City to a City, I always only get the option to jump to Major City or Metropolis (depending on Tech Level).

[ 08 May 2002: Message edited by: RabidFan ]</p>

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Well that can't currently be done (unless you hack the mod between turns), though I asked Malfador if he might consider doing it (his request list is still pretty huge at this point though).

The thing Oleg was talking about and I was responding to, was using the "Upgrade Facilities" command (not just the "Upgrade" button for a specific colony, which gives some [but not enough] choices), which automatically goes and gives all possible upgrade orders. The few times I tried to use that, it did all kinds of things I didn't want, even in the unmodded game, and I spent more time undoing upgrades I didn't want, than it could have saved me.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Rats, I was hoping there was some undocumented way to do this that you had discovered...

Is it on purpose that I cannot upgrade a Colony(GAS/ICE/ROCK) to a minor city?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Re: Upgrading facilities

Although it involves micromanagement on the planetary scale, I rather do it by individual planet (typically starting with those farthest from the frontier and staggered during wartime (if I even do it at all at that point)).

I find that the global "upgrade facility" is more trouble than it's worth.

Does getting up at 5AM to play a couple rounds constitute addiction? Sounds of a 3-pack-a-day smoker and SEIV player: "I can kick this whenever I want!"

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by RabidFan:
...
Is it on purpose that I cannot upgrade a Colony(GAS/ICE/ROCK) to a minor city?<hr></blockquote>

Yes. You can upgrade a settlement to a community, but then the next thing is to build a Minor City from scratch (actually, it's more efficient to first build a bunch of simple facilities quickly to take advantage of the unused space, and then [maybe a good construction yard and then] work on cities).

Originally they were going to be upgradable to cities, but currently there is a problem in the way upgrades work in SE4 that would mess this up (you could upgrade from a cheap settlement to a Megalopolis and end up essentially getting Megalopolis [or other city type] for half the cost).

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dresden, February 13th, 1945.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh?

[ 10 May 2002, 00:57: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Is that a suggestion that the Terrans should be categorized as genocidal?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes and No. If we could do it to ourselves, then most certainly we will do it to alliens. Since we are so far the only known sentient species in Universe, our bloodthirsty history is by default the galactic standard. Thus, given that human race is most certainly capable of aforementioned acts, it either does not classify us as genocidal race or genocidal behaviour is a trademark of advanced intellect. In either case, Proportion' *_AI_strategies.txt should be modified to include

Don't fire on planets := False http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

I don't think I agree, although I suppose it's up for interpretation. You're of course free to mod out things you don't agree with, as always.

In this case, I suppose it is possible to interpret the destruction of planetary population by ship bombardment as "merely" the causing of so much damage that the civilized space age assets there are merely un-useful to their parent empire. That argument has some merit - it may be that "glassing" a planet is just making it effectively need to be rebuilt, rather than necessarily killing all of the millions or billions of defenseless civillians that may be there.

On the other hand, it is perhaps more easy, natural, and common, to interpret this game event literally - that it does represent wholesale extermination of civillians, perhaps even to the point of trying to kill them all or, to use the usual expression on this forum, "glassing" the planet.

The USAF's attacks that levelled German and Japanese cities in World War II were amazingly horrible and killed massive numbers of civillians, but they did not exterminate everyone. In SE4 terms, this could be seen as either literally destroying everything and everyone (what the AI does unless you set Target Planets to False), or as just destroying the facilities and leaving the population (which you could do manually in SE3, but I think in SE4 even a human player isn't shown how many facilities are left, so you couldn't really do that even if you wanted to in SE4, and certainly not in simultanous games where the AI leads the battles).

I don't think it's really possible to interpret the shooting off of all the population units on a planet as not involving massive numbers of massacreing civillians. The good ol' USA may have done this plenty in WW2, but a mere 60 years later, and long before real space expansion, I think the trend is definitely towards recognizing that there may be something just a wee tad evil/horrible/immoral/wrong about mass-slaughtering civillians to get a military advantage.

Anyway, I like to hold out hope that many otherworldly races, and even our depraved species, once they are so advanced that they spread into space, will have developed at least a modicum of morality in these terms.

Moreover, I generally leave Target Planets = True for the Capture Planet strategy, and if this strategy reaches a planet but forgot to bring troops, or other such accidents, the AI will go massacreing civillians anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif For the most merciful races, I may even leave their "Capture Planet" strat set to not target planets, though then their AI will need to be tweaked so it has some chance of dropping troops without always getting annihilated by weapon platforms.

All of this brings up the other main reason why I set this to false in most cases, which is so that ground combat will be more a part of the game. If the AI would just show up and lay waste to planets from orbit, there would be much less ground combat. Given how long it takes (and how expensive it is) to develop a colony in Proportions, this is also, I would think, something of a practical advantage - if the AI conquers enemy colonies rather than bLasting them, it will gain a lot more. Even without transports, though, it may be useful for the AI to sit on enemy planets without attacking - blockading them without getting their ships creamed by the planetary defenses (maybe).

Of course, the AI is needing quite a few tweaks still, including getting more invasion transports out there.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Optimal solution would be to have a special target priority "weapon platforms". It has been suggested several times before but, alas, MM did't implemented it.

It is possible to check during tactical combat how many facilities left on planet: right-click on planet than select "facilities".

It would be nice to transfer TDM Orks or Space Vikings AI. They like to capture planets ! Very nicely done races.

Another issue: AI does not put enough point defence. This is because point defence beams are Last in the list of poin-defence weapons and hence AI always select it. Point-defence beams are superior in acurace, but puny damage values makes current AI ships completely defenseless. I suggest to swap the order of point-defence cannons and point-defence beams in components.txt

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Yep yep yep.

I whined for a long time to MM about adding "Planet - Unarmed" to don't fire on types, too.

You're probably right, I think, about the suggestion for order of PD weapons. The AI ship designs can be hugely improved - John Sullivan and I have been tweaking them a lot lately for 2.3.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

PVK,

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will second this. Although home worlds are difficult to attack with direct fire weapons, building ships with just Capital Missles is the most effective way of preparing a Homeworld for ground assault. They can easily stay out of range of even Heavy/Massive Mounted weapons and wittle the planet's troops down (which absorb tons of Damage). If they could build a Weapons platform that had PD components on them it would be all the more difficult and costly to take.

Also this may exist and I don't see it, but what if there was a shield generating component that could be put on a weapon platform that added to the shields of the planet. Then non-homeworlds would not be so naked to these attacks as well....

two cents more...

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Ok, there shall be more PD from the AI. I had some WP's with PD included, I thought, but I guess either they're using PD beams, or haven't researched PD by the time you attack them, or something. If I tag the self-defense cannon for the AI to find, it should be pretty easy to get the AI to make its homeworlds rather missile resistant.

I don't think it's possible to put planet-wide shields on WP's. I could try to use the Planet - Shield ability, but it's not phased (the phased ability used on facilties is the unit component ability).

However, if Gold 1.67 is like Pre-Gold 1.49, then I think the lowest-hitpoint units on planets tend to get hit first, and before population and facilities, meaning that small WP's with cheap defense components can be used to "protect" most units.

What I should probably do, though, is add a string of planetary shield generator facilities to the standard tech tree (making the ancient tech just out-perform it for a greater investment).

Note too that all of the cultural facilities include phased shield gen to represent the difficulty of destroying these, and the added potential to shelter units on planets with these.

On homeworlds, it takes a pretty large and sustained firepower just to get through the CC "shields".

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My understanding is that the WP must all be destroyed before damage is applied to any of the facilities. If this is true then any shields on WP are equivalent to planetary shields... I think

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's been my experience also. I had a tough time once with the AI for this reason... lotsa early research weapons against 12000 points of planet shields derived from WP's... I came back with cruisers loaded with planetary bombs...

There! That'll learn 'em!

[ 10 May 2002, 21:00: Message edited by: wr8th ]

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Problem with a WP with just shields would be that most likely the ground combat units would be killed first. If I am attacking a homeworld, I want the facilities intact....If only Planet Shileds could be in a component then defenses could be purchased without sacraficing facility space....

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh, that's basically what I did. I have 8 levels of shields, 4 need Massive Planetary Shields to acquire, and I arranged the roman numerals for them so the regular planetary shields will upgrade to the appropriate level for the massive planetary shields. (Massive Planetary Shield Generator I shows up as V, essentially.)

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

"I arranged the roman numerals for them so the regular planetary shields will upgrade to the appropriate level for the massive planetary shields."

FYI you don't have to order the facilities by roman numeral.. it's a cosmetic thing. Order in the file is all that counts.

Phoenix-D

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

My first idea that AI uses PD beams exclusively because it is the latest entry in components.txt was completely wrong. After I interchanged places of PD beams and PDC, AI still stick to PDB (sadly, it is not Protein Data Bank). I think AI uses the component with required ability (PD in this case) that is smalest in size. Thus, it may require some drastic changes in PD weapons to make AI have more or less credible PD defence.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It does work this way for upgrades, but it can run havoc with AI. Remember, long time ago there was a HUGE problem with AI always using ionic drives even if much better drives were discovered. The reason was that than every drive class started with roman numerical I instead of continuing older drive numbers. IMHO, the accurate numbering is extremely important as a profilactic measure for AI.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

I just tested the Krill with inaccurate Plasma Missile numbering..they still used the correct missile.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

If it were picking the smallest PD component, then it would use Self-Defense Cannon, which is smaller than the PD Beam. If someone figures out what's determining the choice, let me know. I'm sure there's a way to do it though, and will figure it out if no one does first.

As for planetary shield platforms, one nice thing about the really tough troops is that they tend to get destroyed after weapon platforms. If you made a really strong shield plaform with phased shield component, though, it might just be the Last thing to go before population and facilities, but would not protect weaker units, such as platforms with weapons, units based at the planet, infantry, etc.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Why not ask MM directly about this apperently very confusing issue ? He should know a bit how the hell the hard-coded AI algorythm works !

I would ask myself but I suspect that more respected members of our community might have better chances for prompt response

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

I thought it'd be easy but ya, it's lookin' more mysterious after a test. I tried offering it a weapon with a higher to-hit, a lower listing position, and a higher Roman numeral, but nope, it just really likes the PD Beam. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'll ask MM.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Can be a higher research cost for PDB be a clue ? At least it has 2 tech requirements compared to 1 for PDC.

May be constraction cost is a final factor ? I think it was the root of "ion engine bug"

[ 11 May 2002, 00:44: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

I just tested construction cost - nope. Haven't tried research requirements. It may be a combination of things. I'm sure it's doable - just have to find the trick.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

I found a way to do this over the weekend. Apparently, for some components and facilities (e.g. Point Defense, Organics Generation, Life Support), the AI chooses between them based on their tech level requirements.

By listing some of the same tech requirements twice or thrice, the desirability of those components of facilities can be emphasized, without changing the actual requirements. Pretty spiffy, although it doesn't work for everything (e.g. ECM and Sensors seem to get the AI to actually look for the highest rating).

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">An A.I. that doesn't care if it's "Crew" is dead or suffocated but care enough to fit the ship with the highest sensor pack that the empire has to offer.

I guess that's going to be included in the next Version?

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

In 2.2, the AI uses life support as they become available. First normal life support, then basic life support, then hardenned life support. It also chooses the highest-rated electronic warfare components it can.

In 2.3, I currently have it so that once it develops basic life support, it stays with that, because going to all hardenned means its ships all become very expensive. I see this as pretty reasonable and efficient, but if people really want to see the AI doing different things with life support ... let me know. The electronic warfare choices aren't going to change. AI modders should simply have the AI stop researching at the desired level of insanity. The only issue is with High (all) tech games, which would take a lot of work to make the AI any good at anyway, for a number of reasons.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

In another thread, Alpha Kodiak posted this observation:

-------------------------------------------------
Ok, here is the complete scoop on Ionic Dispersers, at least as run from the simulator. There is no carryover of damage from shot to shot, even in the same volley. I set up a group of 5 sats armed only with a single Ionic Disperser II each. Brought a target ship up close and let fly. No matter how many hits, there was no damage done. I switched to Ionic Disperser IVs which do 30 points of damage per hit. In the first volley, there were three hits. That should have caused 90 damage, enough to destroy 4 engines. However, only three engines were destroyed, one per hit. I then switched to Ionic Disperser Vs which do 40 per hit. As expected, each hit destroyed two engines.

My final conclusion, which causes me severe grief in trying to build my latest AI, is that it is a total waste to put unmodded level I or II Ionic Dispersers on destroyer or smaller ships, as well as small satellites. That is tricky enough, but it also means that it is a waste to put Ionic Dispersers that individually do anything other than even multiples of 20 damage when modified by their mounts. Getting the AI to recognize that will be just about impossible.
--------------------------------------------------

I think it has some serious repercussions for Ionic shield. As it is now, even IS 1 can not be destroyed by Ionic dispersors no matter what ! Well, except for largest base mounts. SE usually choose the biggest components to be hit first. That means that IS can soak infinite amound of damage from ID without even a scratch with only occasional hits been registered to engines.
There might be some balansing problems with IS.

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

The point is that ionic disruptors are way too poweful without a countermeasure - especially with the increased importance of supplies in Proportions, and in the latest Gold Version (no supplies means no weapons or shields). Also, leaving enemy derelicts that have to be maintained is even more damaging in Proportions, because resources are much harder to mass-produce with quick colony development.

I have tested the Ionic Shields in Proportions and was pretty happy with how they work. They work about like Proportions standard armor, but only against ionic weapons. You may have a hard time destroying the Ionic Shield with Ionic weapons, but well, that's what the Ionic Shield is for. Meanwhile, you will still sometimes destroy engines despite the shield, and of course ignoring all shields and armor that the ship may have, so ionic weapons do not become useless. Ionic shields have their disadvantages, too - they count as an engine, so a ship with an ionic shield has reduced engine design capacity, and of course they take a fair amount of component space, are just like expensive armor against non-ionic weapons, and they can be taken out by non-ionic weapon hits.

So, I think they're serving their intended purpose well. It provides a much-needed mostly-effective countermeasure to ionic weapons, which has its own important trade-offs and limitations.

Unless I'm missing something. They may still need tweaking.

Thanks for the alert though! All feedback is helpful.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Oh, and with ionic shields around, Massive Engine Destroying Weapons are suddenly more interesting than just researching your own and piling them up.

Actually, a good tweak now might be to extend the engine-destroying weapons trees, to allow more of an arms race between them and ionic shields.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

PvK, I have some problems with Religious tallisman:
I want to make a deeply religios AI (hmmm, what if I really succeed in this .... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ) but SE IV swears whenever I put either "weapons always hit" or "sector - sensor interference" (not sure if I spelled them correctly, but I'm absolutely sure there are no mistakes in my design.txt file) as a misc. abillity

SE gives an error "uknown ability value" when processing turn. I checked Norak AI and it does not produce this mistake, BUT it does not put Religious talisman on ships either when I tried Max.tech start (I did adjust AI_settings to design big ships from start).

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

It can be done. If you don't have a typo with "Sector - Sensor Interference" (Talisman), then it is probably just that your design doesn't have room by the time the AI gets to that Misc ability. Here, though, is an example of a ship that does use a Talisman:

Name := Attack Light Cruiser
Design Type := Attack Ship
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Maximum Weapons Range
Size Minimum Tonnage := 425
Size Maximum Tonnage := 475
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 1
Must Have Ability 1 := Weapon
Minimum Speed := 6
Desired Speed := 500
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 1
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 3
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 2
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 25
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 12
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 11
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 22
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 450
Armor Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 1200
Majority Comp Ability := Weapon
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 0
Secondary Comp Ability :=
Num Misc Abilities := 10
Misc Ability 1 Name := Point-Defense
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 200
Misc Ability 2 Name := Planet - Shield Generation
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 3 Name := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 4 Name := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Misc Ability 4 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 5 Name := Sector - Sensor Interference
Misc Ability 5 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 6 Name := Supply Storage
Misc Ability 6 Spaces Per One := 200
Misc Ability 7 Name := Shield Regeneration
Misc Ability 7 Spaces Per One := 800
Misc Ability 8 Name := Planet - Shield Generation
Misc Ability 8 Spaces Per One := 90
Misc Ability 9 Name := Planet - Shield Generation
Misc Ability 9 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 10 Name := Scanner Jammer
Misc Ability 10 Spaces Per One := 10000

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Thanks, it was indeed a problem with space,
RT 1 takes 100 K http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif More like Pyramids, I should say !

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

PvK,
In Proportions it's a hassle to have an effective StarLiner fleet to move population, and changing settings data raise new problems..

So here's a crossbreeding mod idea from B5 mod : in B5 there are special "Corporate" and "Civilian" bridges components : they give 70 and 90% reduction in ship maintenance, but with awful combat penalties.
Won't they fit neatly in your mod ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif They would allow to have larger Liner fleets while keeping the desired proportions ...

In fact since some days I sought a way to have private ships (Liners should be, unless a Soviet Empire playing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) but didn't have any good idea of how to do this, then I stumbled upon them in B5 ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 17, 2002, 16:47: Message edited by: PDF ]

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

There is already something like this, that I'm not sure if you've noticed yet or not. The small starliner with standard bridge is the low-tech model for transporting population, and is slow and expensive and so on. With research into ship construction and/or cargo and/or starliner modules, however, you can use the "Basic Bridge," "Basic Life Support," and "Starliner Module" components, and also transport hulls will about 30% maintenance reduction, to reduce costs of pop transports. Higher levels of research allow more population to be stuffed onto ships of different sizes, too. It does take some time to develop this technology, of course.

Or did you already know about all that, and think there should be more to reduce the maintenance costs?

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you whining about divine gifts? That's not very pious of you! You've also written incorrectly:

Religious Talisman I is actually 50 kT. It only provides +10 to-hit, but this stacks (in SE4's mathematically exaggerated way) with all other modifiers, and thus gives a major advantage - the equivalent of a 1250-racial-point investment in Aggressiveness, so it's actually pretty awesome, especially since it's just the beginning.

Religious Talisman VI is 100 kT, and is the first one that allows the mega-powerful "always hits" ability.

PvK

Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released
 

Yep, I should be more careful when writing.
I like what you made with RT. It makes more sense than standard SE IV "all or nothing" effect.