Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

I have a couple of questions about shields & armour that have bothered me for a long time. I have read "Zanthis"' "Armor, Shields and Damage (FAQ)" dating back to 5 Feb 2001 and, while very interesting, it does not answer these basic questions.

The questions concern upgrades to shields & armour. I sit with my Designer on "Only Show Latest" components and, 99% of the time, I'm quite happy to only pick the latest (most advanced) type of a component. But I don't understand the following:

1. Shields. When I research beyond "normal" shields V, they get replaced by phased shields I. That gives me (something like) 75 *phased* shield points in place of 400 *normal* shield points. Now, I understand that if I'm combatting phased (or is it non-phased) weapons this may be well and good. But most of my opponents aren't using these. I then find (in simulations) that I'm much worse off against normal weapons. I could understand if 75 phased shields counted as 400 normal shields *as well*, but they do not seem to.

2. Armour. Similar-ish. When I research beyond normal armour III I get, say, emissive armour I. Normal III is size=10kT, damage=40kT, whereas emissive I is size=20kT, damage=30kT. That's a *much* worse ratio of size/damage. The same basic principle is true for the scattering & stealth armour Is you get at the same time. I understand the other armours offer other sundry features, but in the simplest case (I think) I'm only interested in the size/damage ratio. And I'm paying upwards of 10 times the build cost for this...

In case 1 (Shields), it's particularly galling because phased shields *replace* normal ones completely. I don't want them, so I can no longer use the "Upgrade" button for redesign, which otherwise works fine, nor can I design a ship from scratch, wanting normal shields, without switching the "Only Show Latest" off. Also, I can never use shield regenerators. In case 2 (Armour), I notice they only *add* emissive etc. to the list, so I can still just find and use normal armour.

Given that everything else seems so logical, am I missing something in either of these two cases? I simply think these upgrades are *worse* than the original (or, in the armour case, just pointless as an alternative). For an upgrade to be "useful" it needs to offer original features + some extras; all other upgrades do. I know I can never research these things, but that's not it --- I want to want to use them!

As a kind of aside, but doubtless related, armour seems pretty pointless once weapons reach a reasonable damage-causing level, which happens fairly early in the game, seems to me it's puny, whereas at least shields are worth a bit?

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

"For an upgrade to be "useful" it needs to offer original features + some extras; all other upgrades do."

Stealth and scattering are *by far* worth the extra size. Don't underestimate that 15% defense bonus!

Armor is kind of puny compared to shields in general; especially when you consider that in the unmodded game there are NO shield-skipping weapons, but there *are* weapons that skip armor.

Phoenix-D

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

Jon you need to take into conderation what the role of the ship will be.

Also what role it will have within a fleet.

I tend to make missle ships light on the armor and with no shields.

But a close assult ship that needs to take be able to take a pounding needs armour and/or shields.

When you start to factor in fleet tatics with different class ships the Armour and Shields issue must be addressed.

A classic armour design ship is the base ship with 1 computer 1 aux bridge 2 marine units 2 defence marine units, 2 engines, 1 weapon that has greatest damage for a fire rate of one and the rest of the ship is armour. As a variation to this class replace 5 armour with point defence
Tatic of the ship is point blank Secondary tatic is ram.

Now think of 10 of these supported by battleship - missle class ships...

There a wall.

Planetary assult ships need shields to surive.

etc...

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but Null Space Weapons are in the unmodded game and skip both armor and shields.

Texfire

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
[QB} especially when you consider that in the unmodded game there are NO shield-skipping weapons, but there *are* weapons that skip armor.
[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
There may be no weapons that skip shields and hit the armor (I can't remember honestly) but there are plenty that skip armor AND shields. And there are the shield depleters and the temporal "Quad damage to shileds" weapons.


Geoschmo

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

Emissive armor is totally useless. Stealth and scattering armor gives defensive modifier that stacks so with both you can have +30. That is a lot.

Choice between normal and phased shields depends on your enemies. It is good to remember that if your enemy uses phased weapons normal shield become totally useless. I agree with you on that normal shields shoudn't be replaced by phased in the design window.

Also armor stops mine damage but shields don't.

Yes, Null Space skips both armor and any shields.

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

All interesting, but before we lose the point:

* Aren't phased shields a bad "upgrade" for normals? Don't you find you cannot afford to use "Hide Obsoletes" or "Upgrade" if you accidentally research them, which is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ?

* Armour: I can see this area is complicated; other Posts seem to think emissive, at least, is broken, non-modded. Persuade me the horrendous drop in size/damage + vastly increased cost is worth it...

I could just do with clarification on how these work. For instance, is 75 phased shields *really* pointless compared to 300 normals against most weapons?

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jon Brave:
&lt;snip&gt;* Aren't phased shields a bad "upgrade" for normals? Don't you find you cannot afford to use "Hide Obsoletes" or "Upgrade" if you accidentally research them, which is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ?
&lt;snip&gt;<hr></blockquote>

I have to agree with this to the point that I modded the families so that both will show up in the design window even with only latest selected.

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

Zarix, you may have summed it up. Emissive pointless; other armours maybe worth the bonus, but I'm not convinced; phased shields great against non-phased weapons but too risky for "general" use, and, yes, my designs are a pain if I ever research them... So basically I don't want to use these areas 99% of the time. Shame...

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

I noticed that a lot of player written AI use armor and maybe one shield generator. I think these experienced players tweaking the AIs (example TDM mod pack) know a thing or two.

The phased shields will eventually be stronger than the normal shields. The Scattering Armor and the Stealth Armor both have a 15% (ECM like) defense bonus. Using both types adds +30% defence.


The Shield Depelter weapons are very effective. Firing order is important so mount it before (to the left) of your other beam weapons.

Shield and Armor skipping weapons can be effective also. Mount these before the Shield Depelters. The Ionic Disperser (Engine Damage) can be very nasty, by killing the engine it kills its supplies too. I generally don't use the other skipping weapons, except in SAT stacks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Only the Crystal Tech race trait has an armor (only) skipping weapon. This weapon is greatly underpowered when used against shielded ships.

Boarding Parties could be considered an armor skipping weapon. Pretty effective for worm hole defense against unshielded ships.


Anyway, I suggest that you try the Combat Simulator on Auto and play barenaked ships against ships with shields and/or armor. Spice up the sim with some fighters and SATs.


--------------------------

Paper, Rock, Scissors

[ 07 May 2002: Message edited by: Wardad ]</p>

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

Shields: If you continue to research you will eventually reach phased shields that are as strong as (and eventually stronger than) normal shields. You are correct that phased shields do not provide added protection against a normal weapon. But normal shields will not stop Phased Polaron beams, which most humans research early (as well as alot of TDM-Modpack AI's). But at shield-level 10, you get phased shields that generate 375 points each which is better than the normal shield generators

Armor: Get an ECM-III (+60% defense), Add Scattering Armor-III (+15% defense), Add Stealth Armor (+15% defense). Train your ship (+20% defense). Train your fleet (+20% defense). Add it all up: 130% defense. That means even at point-blank range your opponent will not be able to hit you without help. Now if your opponent has:
combat sensors-III (+65% offense), training (+20% offense), fleet training (+20% offense), that comes to +105% offense. Now as you can see because you have both armors, he still hase a -25% chance to hit you. That means at point-blank range he will miss 1 in 4 times. 5 squares away he will only hit 25% of the time (vs 55% of the time if you did not have the armors). That cuts his number of successful hits in half at 5-range.

Stealth and scattering armor are *very* nice.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jon Brave:
Zarix, you may have summed it up. Emissive pointless; other armours maybe worth the bonus, but I'm not convinced; phased shields great against non-phased weapons but too risky for "general" use, and, yes, my designs are a pain if I ever research them... So basically I don't want to use these areas 99% of the time. Shame...<hr></blockquote>

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

One really shouldn't compare normal shields V and phased I. It is usually better to go with armor than I or II of the normal or phased shields.

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

Have you looked at the advanced research trait's armour ???

That will throw a monkey into your thinking.

Organic and Crystaline Armour.

But back to the topic of Phased Shields vs non-phased shields. Use them both but only one kind per ship class.

Make PShield ships and copy that design and make a non PShield Version of the ship. Build both. Use them together. Forces the opposing player to react to your ship configurations. Forcing you to react to there new ship configurations.

I could understand the debate over this if ship combat was one on one but it is not.

When you have fleets of 100 greater... Staying power is very important. AS is quickness to ship construction and deployment of ships.

You have to look at the cost of each ship component vs its benifits and decide if this ship build is an economically viable solution. If you can afford it build the best.

Weapons that skip shields and armour have a longer reload time. If your ships are non phased i will attack you with PPB's
If your ships are Phased then I will attack you with PPB's but I will also start attacking you with weapons that cause more damage on the initial strike. But the PPB's will be there because they fire every single turn.

I am losing track here. Rambling sorry.

But my point is that for shields both are viable.

It all depends on what you need to build to survive the first salvo from the enemy.

Which in the long run is a balance of shield type and armour type ships.

Space and the purpose of that ship.

So when your running your simulators build both types of ships and have some fleet engagements with those different types of ships.

You will find that you need both.

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Also, I can never use shield regenerators. <hr></blockquote>I'm baffled by this statement. Why can't you use shield regenerators? They're meant to be used in conjunction with either type of shield generator, not to replace them.

Several mods make changes to normal and phased shields, trying to address the problem.

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by capnq:
I'm baffled by this statement. Why can't you use shield regenerators? They're meant to be used in conjunction with either type of shield generator, not to replace them.
<hr></blockquote>

a. I thought shield regens only regenerate phased shields? I thought the graphic/manual indicated this...

b. and they regen such a paltry amount (5 to start with?) it's an OK percentage against 75 phased shields but too little against 300 normal shields, don't you think?

Re: Shields & Armour --- what\'s the point?
 

Ugh, why are you comparing the very first level of regenerators against the top tech in shields???

I agree that the low end regenerators seem weak, but after a few levels they are quite decent.
Also note that the regenerators are half the size of a shield generator, so double their value.

You can get 375 phased shields, or 50 recharge per turn in 40 KT of space. If you expect to survive 7 turns after being hit, the regenerator will be worth more to you.

PS: Also note that shield regenerators of any level are a great defense against boarding parties.

[ 08 May 2002: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]</p>