Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

I have a couple of questions regarding the implimentation of this movement system. In SJ's mod the movement factors are 3,4,5 and six respectively with 400 supply per engine and no max engine restrictions. In PVK's mod the movement factors are 9,11,13 and 15 with supplies ranging from 250 to 600 per engine and max engine restrictions. Both use the same engines per move formula. This results in wildly different speed and supply results. Under SJ's movement ships would be faster and have more supply while under PVK's the ships would be slightly slower but have minimal supply. Both claim pseudo-newtonian but the results are much different. Also when I tried to use this movement system with the none gold Version I found that the AI would build ships with only a few engines resulting in ships that had 0 or 1 movement. Does the Ai need to be modded to use this system correctly. I am currently useing the TDM mod for AI. Any enlightenment on this subject would be greatly appreciated

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

Yep. You'll have to mod the design file for vehicles. Most are set to have between 4 and 6 engines by default.

Meaning you have to mod this file for every single AI.

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

I have written an AI patcher specifically for that job.

Just select the mod from the dropdown box, and browse to the AI you wish to patch. Easy as that.

Try it on TDM AIs for extra fun.

(It's in my P&N downloads section, see sig)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The definition of QNP is that speeds are divided by the mass of a vehicle.
It dosen't matter what scale is used, as long as a ship that is twice as big needs twice as many engines to move the same speed.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not nessesarily. In P&N, you can build a ship that moves 20 sectors per turn, but it would be just one big pile of engines with a Bridge and lifesupport stuck on the top. Obviously this kind of ship is next to worthless, except maybe as a galaxy-mapping scoutship.

I find that my ships all have between 5 and 7 MP as I go from low tech to high-tech. Even though I could make them much faster, but that would mean sacrificing weapons or armor, which goes against my racial strategy.

My dad likes to pile on the engines, and is buzzing around the galaxy in flimsy, 8 - 12 MP ships.

My brother goes for more weapons. Weapons, and solar sails for the zero fuel use. He ends up slower and somewhat flimsier than my ships, but never needs to resupply, and packs a mean punch.

Faster, slower, more or less weapons and defenses, its all a matter of economic and cultural influences when QNP is properly applied http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Everything has a niche use.

[ 10 May 2002, 16:58: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh, a little OT, but your brother will be in for a rude suprise when the new patch comes out. He's going to need supply for his weapons to work.

Geoschmo

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

Thanks for the info SJ. I'll look into the Ai patcher.

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

You need supplies in order to get more than 1 MP (even if your engines don't use supplies), so he's already compensated for that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A Supply tank or two is more than enough for the amount of fighting that actually goes on.

[ 11 May 2002, 17:54: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

I'd go with your dad on the movement thing. I figure if I build 10 ultra fast ships, they can move from one battle to another in less time and it's easier to mass the ships together - avoid having singles and doubles picked off as they go to join a fleet. Someone with slower ships has a harder time amassing their ships - so I can pick off the singles and the doubles!

Also, if my movement is double his, I can essentially be in two places at once (well, close enough), meaning that I need one fleet of 10 ultra fast ships, and he needs two or three fleets of 8 slower but stronger ships just to engage me.

Well, that's what my aliens tend towards anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: Oh, and doesn't your brother find the mass to propulsion ratio a little low with solar sails? How 'bout a supply ship in each fleet (I'm big into ultra-specialized ships)

[ 11 May 2002, 18:31: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your ships can be as fast as you like, but they still have to travel through warppoints http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .
I think both ways are probably best. Fast interceptors, and heavy warships each in their own fleets and roles. One plugs warppoints and lays siege to planets, the other picks off anybody who gets past.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The max-tech solar sails are almost as powerful per KT as JP engines. Its not that bad.

As for the supply ship?
My brother's supply ship is a warppoint opener orbiting the cluster of 12 Huge planets in the Hercules system. (As you can tell he's been doing a lot of Stellar Manip http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

In case you're wondering;
- Yes, those planets are all in the same sector
- Yes, they are all breathable, Huge oxygen worlds.
- No there is no system type with a stack of huge planets.
- He moved them there using his powerful Stellar Manip techs.
- Yes, he is very powerful, but despite that, I have just bumped into the MEE limit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
- No, you cannot borrow my fleet of BattleMoons.

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Aww, come on dad, everybody elses parents let them drive the BattleMoons to the prom.

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

If you just want one, that's ok. Don't mind the 7000 Commandos in the back, just think of them as chauffeurs.

Please be careful not to crash into anything; the locals usually get quite upset when that happens...

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

The engine limits per ship in Proportions have the effect of limiting the range of operations of capital ships. Also, with two main classes of engines at each tech level (specialized either for speed or for efficiency), there are trade-offs between range and speed. The result is that the deadlier fleets have considerable supply requirements, while slower and smaller ship designs can operate at more extended range from a supply source or tanker fleet. In turn, this means that developing and protecting a supply network can determine where and when you can deploy the fastest and most powerful ship designs.

The limits on max engines per hull size provide another trade-off between small and large ships in terms of maximum speed, and are one of several trade-offs that give small ships a continued role at higher tech levels.

PvK

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

If you eliminate the engine limits (and tweak the thrust levels a bit) then you will get the option of:
- Long range, low speed (with efficiency drives)
- Long range, moderate-high speed, minimal active components (with lots and lots of efficiency drives.
- Short range, Moderate speed (with power drives)
- Short range, Insane speed, minimal active components (with lots and lots of power drives)

Where active components are anything other than C&C and engines.

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, though all except the Last are already possible in Proportions. Much of this is thanks to the cheap supply components in Proportions.

Long-range, low-speed is possible with efficient engines and the cheap supply components, or solar sails.

Long-range, moderate speed, low active components is possible by using fast engines and supply components.

Short-range, moderate speed is what you get with a typical ship using mostly high-speed drives or a mix, depending on your hull size.

Short-range, insane speed is what you can only get with specialized components, which is intentional and the main reason I have limits on the number of engines. Note that the speeds are already quite high for a small ship with high-output engines (a small low-tech interceptor can get up to speed 9 from the start). You can still develop insane-speed ships by researching emergency propulsion and gravitic drives (I think the max theoretical speed is about 22 with the current components in Proportions - but it would require some advanced research, and would be lower for large ships).

PvK

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes. It's the number of STANDARD MOVEMENT POINTS needed per unit of speed the ship will have in strategic movement.

PvK

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

thanks

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He MOVED the planets there? I may have to try P&N just so I can move planets around... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

SJ:

How did he move the planets?

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

The reason I don't like QNP without engine limits is that you can have ships that fly around at 20 sectors per turn. I think it hurts the strategic aspects and "epicness" of the game if you can whip across all your systems in three turns to respond to an invasion or whatever. Anything more than 10-12 movement points is too much.

I'm for more engines for bigger ships - just not lots of movement. Who was it asking MM remove the 255 limit? Why? There's no need to zip around like that - even if it is to "simulate FTL propulsion".

I kind of like plodding around the galaxy and trying to determine where to station my fleets to maximize my empire's defense. Even with 15 movement points - that's an extra planet or two destroyed in some systems in one turn.

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have a ship or two like that in my game at home. They are DS, with basic C&C, a temporal sensor and 23 Gravitic drives.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps new, undefended colonies, but not any world with a half-assed (even AI-generated) defense in place.
You have to sacrifice all of your defenses, and almost all of your weaponry in order to get those really high speeds, so a platform or a handful of sats will swat your ships like bugs.
Sure, if you send enough ships, you can do plenty of damage, but you are spending a huge pile of resources to maintain all those engines.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I totally agree. The warships I design move only 5 MP at the very beginning, increasing to 8 or 9 by the endgame as engines get more efficient.

The key point to the QNP system in P&N is that the limits are not arbitrary. They are economical. Top of the line engines can cost 1000 rads each.

You can make all of your ships move 20 sectors per turn, but they will be worth a king's ransom to build, and be worth squat in combat.
Special forces ships, spyships, and medical ships are potentially worth giving 20 MP. Their key abilities are concentrated into a few KT, and can afford the space.

Transports, ships of the line, and other vehicles are decidedly not worth the cost.
It is usually better to have a transport take twice as much cargo while taking twice as long to get there, and costing half as much.

The point is that the player gets to decide. I do not limit the number of engines because I hate the reason of:
"Because I said so"

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

Ya, I think that's entirely valid and interesting and not imbalanced, SJ. It's nice to be able to focus on certain abilities without it usually being a good idea, which is something I tried to put into Proportions in a number of ways, too.

The limits I have in Proportions are just a different system, not necessarily better.

In Proportions, the engine limits are supposed to represent the limits of a design, and to add some trade-off decisions between say, a slow but cheap transport hull, and a more expensive and faster one (such as a transport design on a warship hull). I gave maintenance bonuses to transport hulls, and made it possible to put several other types of components in the 50% requirement besides just Cargo Storage, so one of the trade-offs is that the design can't support enough engines to get up to as much speed as a warship can, although you could develop gravitic drives and emergency propulsion and still get something pretty fast.

PvK

(edited for typos)

[ May 15, 2002, 20:51: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

Still, HOW DID HE MOVED PLANETS !

It's driving me crazy...

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

Planet moving has to do with combining Stellar manipulation, simultaneous movement, and conflicting orders http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I really don't want to give away the answer too easily, though I have mentioned it on the beta forums.

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'd rather MM come through on the promised 'Planetary Engine Facility' or some other documented, legitimate means of moving planets than have to learn some kluge that might be lost to a bug fix at a later date.

Even more interesting would be moving warp points without having to close & reopen them. Not necessarily to another system, just within the system. You could pull some nasty tricks with that one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Pseudo-Newtonian Movement
 

Can anyone explain what the "Engines per Move" parameter does in the vehiclesize.txt file? Thanks.