.com.unity Forums

.com.unity Forums (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/index.php)
-   Space Empires: IV & V (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20)
-   -   Manifesto PBW Ethics (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=6034)

Gozra May 20th, 2002 09:31 PM

Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
Players that cannot send in turns within 24 hours in a 24 hour game. BUG ME

Gozra May 20th, 2002 10:23 PM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
I started this thread because The SEIV PBW community should have a Basic GentleBeings Accord. That is posted and Gives all players an Idea of game enhancment activity.

Puke May 20th, 2002 11:26 PM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
ive been known to lag from time to time, but such things are better addressed by sending a note to teh offending party or posting on the game message board, rather than dragging issues with individual players out onto the shrapnel forum.

if someone is taking too long, you are better off letting them know about it than you are letting the world know how much you are suffering.

Gozra May 20th, 2002 11:41 PM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
It is not the from time to time stuff that Buggs me. All I am trying to say is That the unwritten rules "everyone" knows about really are not known. In another thread 2 players got together and one surrendered to the other and then one player recived the resulting bigger Empire. And the host allowed this. Was it fair to the remaining players? I don't know.

Gimboid May 21st, 2002 12:25 AM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
If these sorts of things are not specified or discussed before they happen then their will probably be a few players who disagree with what occured. But since it wasnt specified before game where the line for fair play would be drawn its much harder to say who is right under those circumstances.

That is why PBW recommends that game owners set out all the house rules before a game starts, that includes the game policy on surrenders and how patient the owner will be should players continually send in turns late or not at all.

These small things when done before a game save ALOT of hassle down the track when you get into a massive disagreement over rules where some players may not even have started the game if they had known the rules would be that way.

Gimboid
PBW Admin Team

Dogberry May 21st, 2002 01:42 AM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
Perhaps it would be useful to set out all the different permutations of the ROE ( Rules of Engagement ) here or somewhere else. A player like me .. who is just starting, would not have the slightest idea of what he was agreeing to.

Naturally, some things.. like sticking to the agreed upon time limits are easy, others are not so straightforward.

With enough discussion a consensus, perhaps, can emerge.

I kinda dislike stuff that is "gamey".. but in this context, please don't ask me to explain exactly what THAT means.

Dog

Gozra May 21st, 2002 02:06 AM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
I think I have an example of what "gamey" is. It is when you build a Ship yard on just about every world that can build at almost the same speed as any other world's ship yard. And it appears that ship yards increase the speed of faclities built on that world. So every world gets a shipyard. To help boost it's production.

tesco samoa May 21st, 2002 03:01 AM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
Hey Gozra.. remember that life can get in the way of a game. And in the long run it is just a game. ( Except the surrender thing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ) I would send an email to the offender asking them if there still able to commit to the game. Talk it out.

Gozra May 21st, 2002 05:42 AM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
I understand life can get in the way of a game. I am talking about consistantly mising a turn 3-4 times. But the main reason I started this thread is We the SEIV PBW community have so general rules. In the other ethics thread someone claimed a everybody knows rule. I think it helps to have loose guide lines.

QuarianRex May 21st, 2002 06:04 AM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
Gozra,

What's "gamey" about building shipyards? Essentially they are dedicated construction yards useful for the building of weapon platforms, satellites, ships, bases, troops, fighters, and even facilities. It makes sense that any world that requires significant development or industrialization would set up the infrastructure to allow the job to be done as quickly and efficiently as possible.

If you think that this is cheesy in any way then I cannot see where you are coming from. Also it is mitigated bt a five month delay in actual production (waiting for the SY to be built before you can start on actual development), the loss of a facility slot, and the fact that most basic facilities take but a single turn to produce therefore receiving no benefit from the enhanced production (and those that take longer are usually specialty facilities that are constructed only in limited quantities).

If you are incised by such rational actions (or at least apparently rational actions, who knows he could be obsessive-compulsive or something) on the part of your fellow players then perhaps you should define what you consider to be ethical (or quasi-ethical) behaviour so that I might better understand what you are refering to.

P.S. As far as the surrendering goes, it is also a perfectly rational and acceptable alternative to annihilation. The problem (if you are refering to the thread that I think you are) was that the player surrendered to the most powerful computer player and then took over said player. Therein lay the cheese.

Gozra May 21st, 2002 06:17 AM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
My example is a poor one. It grew out of some thoughts by GradpaKim who gave much better clarity to them than I can. He said aproxmitaly(sic) that People can Play the Game rather than the simulation. Nothing wrong with that. The surrender to yourself tactic is not one that I would ever use but it was a very clever move. I just think we should come up with and publish some guide lines like this: 1. All Rangers are to be subject to the rules and articles of war; to appear at roll- call every evening, on their own parade, equipped, each with a firelock, sixty rounds of powder and ball, and a hatchet, at which time an officer from each company is to inspect the same, to see they are in order, so as to be ready on any emergency to march at a minute's warning; and before they are dismissed, the necessary guards are to be draughted and scouts for the next day appointed.

2. Whenever you are ordered out to the enemies forts or frontiers for discoveries, if your number be small, march in a single file, keeping at such distance from each other as to prevent one shot from killing two men, sending one man, or more, forward, and the like on each side, at the distance of twenty yards from the main body, if the ground you march over will admit of it, to give the signal to the officer of the approach of an enemy, and of their number &c.

3. If you march over marshes or soft ground, change your position, and march abreast of each other to prevent the enemy from tracking you (as they would do if you marched in a single file) till you get over such ground, and then resume your former order and march till it is quite dark before you encamp, which do, if possible, on a piece of ground which that may afford your centries the advantage of seeing or hearing the enemy some considerable distance, keeping one half of your whole party awake alternately through the night.

4. Some time before you come to the place you would reconnoitre, make a stand, and send one or two men in whom you can confide, to look out the best ground for making your observations.

5. If you have the good fortune to take any prisoners, keep them separate, till they are examined, and in your return take a different route from that in which you went out, that you may the better discover any party in your rear, and have an opportunity, if their strength be superior to yours, to alter your course, or disperse, as circumstances may require.

6. If you march in a large body of three or four hundred, with a design to attack the enemy, divide your party into three columns, each headed by a proper officer, and let those columns march in single files, the columns to the right and left keeping at twenty yards distance or more from that of the center, if the ground will admit, and let proper guards be kept in the front and rear, and suitable flanking parties at a due distance as before directed, with orders to halt on all eminences, to take a view of the surrounding ground, to prevent your being ambuscaded, and to notify the approach or retreat of the enemy, that proper dispostions may be made for attacking, defending, &c. And if the enemy approach in your front on level ground, form a front of your three columns or main body with the advanced guard, keeping out your flanking parties, as if you were marching under the command of trusty officers, to prevent the enemy from pressing hard on either of your wings, or surrounding you, which is the usual method of the savages, if their number will admit of it, and be careful likewise to support and strengthen your rear-guard.

7. If you are obliged to receive the enemy's fire, fall, or squat down, till it is over; then rise and discharge at them. If their main body is equal to yours, extend yourselves occasionally; but if superior, be careful to support and strengthen your flanking parties, to make them equal to theirs, that if possible you may repulse them to their main body, in which case push upon them with the greatest resolution with equal force in each flank and in the center, observing to keep at a due distance from each other, and advance from tree to tree, with one half of the party before the other ten or twelve yards. If the enemy push upon you, let your front fire and fall down, and then let your rear advance thro' them and do the like, by which time those who before were in front will be ready to discharge again, and repeat the same alternatively, as occasion shall require; by this means you will keep up such a constant fire, that the enemy will not be able easily to break your order, or gain your ground.

8. If you oblige the enemy to retreat, be careful, in your pursuit of them to keep out your flanking parties, and prevent them from gaining eminences, or rising grounds, in which case they would perhaps be able to rally and repulse you in their turn.

9. If you are obliged to retreat, let the front of your whole party fire and fall back, till the rear hath done the same, making for the best ground you can; by this means you will oblige the enemy to pursue you, if they do it at all, in the face of a constant fire.

10. If the enemy is so superior that you are in danger of being surrounded by them, let the whole body disperse, and every one take a different road to the place of rendezvous appointed for that evening, which must every morning be altered and fixed for the evening ensuing, in order to bring the whole party, or as many of them as possible, together, after any separation that may happen in the day; but if you should happen to be actually surrounded, form yourselves into a square, or if in the woods, a circle is best, and, if possible, make a stand till the darkness of the night favours your escape.

11. If your rear is attacked, the main body and flankers must face about to the right or left, as occasion shall require, and form themselves to oppose the enemy, as before directed; and the same method must be observed, if attacked in either of your flanks, by which means you will always make a rear of one of your flank-guards.

12. If you determine to rally after a retreat, in order to make a fresh stand against the enemy, by all means endeavour to do it on the most rising ground you come at, which will give you greatly the advantage in point of situation, and enable you to repulse superior numbers.

13. In general, when pushed upon by the enemy, reserve your fire till they approach very near, which will then put them into the greatest surprize and consternation, and give you an opportunity of rushing upon them with your hatchets and cutlasses to the better advantage.

14. When you encamp at night, fix your centries in such a manner as not to be relieved from the main body till morning, profound secrecy and silence being often of the Last importance in these cases. Each centry therefore should consist of six men, two of whom must be constantly alert, and when relieved by their fellows, it should be done without noise; and in case those on duty see or hear any thing, which alarms them, they are not to speak, but one of them is silently to retreat, that proper dispositions may be made; and all occasional centries should be fixed in like manner.

15. At the first dawn of day, awake your whole detachment; that being the time when the savages chuse to fall upon their enemies, you should by all means be in readiness to receive them.

16. If the enemy should be discovered by your detachments in the morning, and their numbers are superior to yours, and a victory doubtful, you should not attack them till the evening, as then they will not know your numbers, and if you are repulsed, your retreat will be favoured by the darkness of the night.

17. Before you leave your encampment, send out small parties to scout round it, to see if there be any appearance or track of an enemy that might have been near you during the night.

18. When you stop for refreshment, chuse some spring or rivulet if you can, and dispose your party so as not to be surprised, posting proper guards and centries at a due distance, and let a small party waylay the path came in, lest the enemy should be pursuing.

19. If, in your return, you have to cross rivers, avoid the usual fords as much as possible, lest the enemy should have discovered, and be there expecting you.

20. If you have to pass by lakes, keep at some distance from the edge of the water, lest, in case of an ambuscade or an attack from the enemy, when in that situation, your retreat should be cut off.

21. If the enemy pursue your rear, take a circle till you come to your own tracks, and there form an ambush to receive them, and give them the first fire.

22. When you return from a scout, and come near our forts, avoid the usual roads, and avenues thereto, lest the enemy should have headed you, and lay in ambush to receive you, when almost exhausted with fatigues.

23. When you pursue any party that has been near our forts or encampments, follow not directly in their tracks, lest they should be discovered by their rear-guards, who, at such a time, would be most alert; but endeavour, by a different route, to head and meet them in some narrow pass, or lay in ambush to receive them when and where they least expect it.

24. If you are to embark in canoes, battoes, or otherwise, by water, chuse the evening for the time of your embarkation, as you will then have the whole night before you, to pass undiscovered by any parties of the enemy, on hills, or other places, which command a prospect of the lake or river you are upon.

25. In padling or rowing, give orders that the boat or canoe next the sternmost, wait for her, and the third for the second, and the fourth for the third, and so on, to prevent separation, and that you may be ready to assist each other on any emergency.

26. Appoint one man in each boat to look out for fires, on the adjacent shores, from the number and size of which you may form some judgment of the number that kindled them, and whether you are able to attack them or not.

27. If you find the enemy encamped near the banks of a river or lake, which you imagine they will attempt to cross for their security upon being attacked, leave a detachment of your party on the opposite shore to receive them, while, with the remainder, you surprize them, having them between you and the lake or river.

28. If you cannot satisfy yourself as to the enemy's number and strength, from their fires, &c. conceal your boats at some distance, and ascertain their number by a reconnoitering party, when they embark, or march, in the morning, marking the course they steer, &c. when you may pursue, ambush, and attack them, or let them pass, as prudence shall direct you. In general, however, that you may not be discovered by the enemy upon the lakes and rivers at a great distance, it is safest to lay by, with your boats and party concealed all day, without noise or shew; and to pursue your intended route by night; and whether you go by land or water, give out parole and countersigns, in order to know one another in the dark, and likewise appoint a station for every man to repair to, in case of any accident that may separate you.

PDF May 21st, 2002 03:39 PM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
Gozra, I don't see the point of your awfully long Ranger regulations here ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

If playing PBW is like enrolling as a Ranger I'll soon give up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Or else it's just a game and if you're dissatisfied by a particular player/game just withdraw and host a new one. So you can put *sensible* homerules/ethics and fire the offenders.

My .02 ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Gozra May 21st, 2002 10:51 PM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
I apologize. I tend to use a readers digest Version when explaining something. The Rogers Rangers list was an Example of what I hoped the SEIV PBW comunity could come up with. I think you should not quit. I think you should not come up with a surrender to self scheme. I think you should turn you turn in on time or send the Host just cause. I vote for not communicating outside the game about the game unless you have met in the game. I aggree that you should have a gentle Beings aggreement before the game starts. I believe you should not carry over grudges to the next game, however a strong spirt of competetion is not out of the question. I think you should help newbies to the game even if you are set back by it. You should avoid "gamey" Example: You can trade you colonization Tech over and over to the Neutral or AI and still get the same level or lesser level tech for your tech. I hope this clears up what I have been trying to say. We don't need to be rangers just all around good players And good people.

Hornet X1 May 22nd, 2002 09:32 AM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
I agree with Gozra's assessment, that etiquette and unwritten rule guidelines could be helpful for new and even experienced PBW game players.

A few things I think should be included are as follows:

1) As a courtesy to fellow players and PBW Users, please stay in the game if your empire is near defeat and allow the PBW server to mark your empire as dead. That way it will not read the game as needing a replacement player for what is basically a dead empire.

If you cannot or do not wish to, please post in the game forum and allow the game owner to "finish" your empire before you withdraw and let the AI play your empires Last few turns or allow them to seek a replacement player.

2) As a game owner, clean up after yourself. When a game is done with delete it from the server.

If it never gets off the ground and into play remove it.

When looking for new games to join before the server move, I encountered several examples where the game owner had stopped paying attention to their game and never started. New players were still applying to join months later.

3) If you think another player is cheating do not start making accusations you may not be able to back up or emailing other players over it when you may well be wrong.

Ask an admin. to look into it for you quietly. After all chances are that you will not believe what the player you suspect of cheating has to say anyway, and this way no hurt feelings are left behind and no ones character has been wrongfully questioned.

If they actually are cheating they will be caught by the admins and things handled on the spot.

4) As a player, before joining a game, read the game info page carefully.

When methods for handling common issues are explained clearly in the description you have no business whining about it latter.

Sometimes, you might encounter a player whose desire to actually play the game leads them to join a game they may not be happy playing in the long run.

If you cannot find a game you like, start your own.

5) As an owner remember that the more details you provide on the game info page the more likely players are to be satisfied with the game experience and understand what they are getting into.

When an owner asks for your input on settings and other issues in the game forum - provide it. Otherwise you have no one but yourself to blame if things are not as you like.

Finally, I will note some disagreement with the idea that email diplomacy should be restricted as a matter of courtesy. I think that is something which should be handled with house rules in the game description.

Hornet X1

PDF May 22nd, 2002 12:52 PM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
Well, my statements were somewhat harsh, but I really think that it's useless to go through detailed bureaucratic procedures in this sort of environment... It soon become endless quibbles about very minor points, and noone read them, and much less respect them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

So OK for a *short* PBW etiquette document listing "proper behavior" though, as an help for newbies. More than that should be left to Game Masters if they want specific rules.
And frankly all relies on the individuals'goodwill, no amount of rules will change that as long as there are no retaliation other than just kicking out the players from a game.
If the "rules" just listed and informed players beforehand of what can lead to their banning from a game I think the goal will be attained.

Prophet-PBW May 22nd, 2002 07:22 PM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
I agree with Hornet's list.

But it does come down to each player running a game setting the ground rules at the beginning. I think that is important. A pain in the butt... but important.

If you are going to join a game, follow a 'Buyer Beware' policy. In addition to Hornet's ideas, don't be afraid to just ask questions in the game forum. Perhaps the admin has his/her own Assumed Rules. Or they just forgot to address certain questions.

It is much better to flesh this stuff out as early as possible.

Prophet

Prophet-PBW May 22nd, 2002 08:03 PM

Re: Manifesto PBW Ethics
 
Oh, and there is one other rule to keep in mind:

Game Owner's word is final. In the end, it is their game.

I am not advocating a tyrant admin. I hate it when owners act like lord over all, proclaiming answers without discussion. A more democratic process, where debate and maybe voting are used by the owner, is much more enjoyable. But it's like driving: drivers are asked to be courteous, but not required by law.

Prophet


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:42 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.