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I just spent the past few hours going over the data files for the TDM-modpack and DevNullModGold. The second mod feels comfortable to me, as I'm a fan of books based on StarFire (such as by Weber & White).

Anyway, what I want to change about the game is to incorporate more of a sense of strategy rather than tactics (ie, with more logistics & economy building), and I want to take advantage of the capabilities of the game engine-- ie, the flexibility of the tech tree, the component/tonnage build system which can output anything from individual troops or fighters to bases and capital ships.

Planet population should mean more and there should be reasons for capturing a planet rather than nuking it from orbit. If for no other reason, a Mean Evil Empire(tm) such as an "Arachnid" race might create facilities on a captured planet to convert them into organic resources and research points...?

Anyway, I want to do something like making transport ships required and meaningful to actually defend-- ie, making support more important. Perhaps by making cargo required as ammo-- have capital ship missiles/heavy bombardment missiles simulated as drones. Be nice if you couldn't reload all weapon types (ie, missile bays) via solar collectors and actually needed a production facility once in a while. :-)

I also want to adjust carrier-to-fighter ratio quite a bit. An 800K "light carrier" should only be able to carry, say, 8 or 12 25K large fighters, rather than 70 or so. My Last game, I refused to build any ships except carriers and fighters (and colony ships). Doing that plus only using weapon platforms to defend left me with low maintainance.

Does anyone have a source of numbers for the ratio of component types (ie, weapons/power/drive/control/crew space) for 'real ships'. If I compare something like a CV or SSBN, that might be a starting point for updating the balance.

More types of warp points are definitely needed, and there should be a reason to equip explorer ships with sensors. Well, time to start tweaking.

Later,
-Chuck

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Anyway, what I want to change about the game is to incorporate more of a sense of strategy rather than tactics (ie, with more logistics & economy building)...
Planet population should mean more and there should be reasons for capturing a planet rather than nuking it from orbit.

Sounds like you want to play PvK's Proportions mod. There's a copy on your Gold CD, and a more advanced Version available here on the forum.

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If for no other reason, a Mean Evil Empire(tm) such as an "Arachnid" race might create facilities on a captured planet to convert them into organic resources and research points...?

It's been suggested and discussed, but this can't be modded using the current game engine. At least I don't think so. Future patches might make it possible.

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Anyway, I want to do something like making transport ships required and meaningful to actually defend-- ie, making support more important.

Proportions mod, or maybe Derek's mod, which (as I understand it) is a sort of Devnull/ Proportions hybrid.

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Your drone idea should work as you intend, but it won't be easy. FOr one thing, your new missiles will be able to fly from one system to another on their own - they won't be restricted to the combat screen. For another, you may have trouble balancing the cargo sizes. You should be able to do it though.

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I also want to adjust carrier-to-fighter ratio quite a bit. An 800K "light carrier" should only be able to carry, say, 8 or 12 25K large fighters, rather than 70 or so.

Easy enough to do, but again, you may have trouble reconciling the new cargo capacities with your drone/missile idea and the modified cargo storage of Proportions/ Derek's mod.

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Does anyone have a source of numbers for the ratio of component types (ie, weapons/power/drive/control/crew space) for 'real ships'.

I have seen such a thing posted, probably over a year ago. I'll try to find it (but I'm not sure I'll succeed=-)

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More types of warp points are definitely needed, and there should be a reason to equip explorer ships with sensors

Agreed, although these are largely hard code issues. Still, you might be able to do something that I might not think possible- After all I'm not amodder myself.

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Well, time to start tweaking.

Good luck!

"FOr one thing, your new missiles will be able to fly from one system to another on their own - they won't be restricted to the combat screen."

That can be fixed. Changing the drone engines to prove increasing amounts of Combat Move rather than standard movement points will do the trick. I fiddiled with the same for a possible Honor Harrington mod.

Phoenix-D

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Originally posted by dogscoff:
Sounds like you want to play PvK's Proportions mod. There's a copy on your Gold CD, and a more advanced Version available here on the forum.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Of course, it's easy for me to talk about making changes...it's harder to implement them and end up with results that are more playable and more enjoyable. Changes made 'for the sake of realism' alone don't always help.

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Anyway, I want to do something like making transport ships required and meaningful to actually defend-- ie, making support more important.

Proportions mod, or maybe Derek's mod, which (as I understand it) is a sort of Devnull/ Proportions hybrid.

My first thought was to have a distinction between civilian hardware and military hardware, so that civilian components provide significant maintenance reduction, but are sitting ducks in combat (low damage ratios considering the equipment tonnage, reduced combat bonuses for size), whereas military-grade components cost more up-front and in maintenance.

For example, let's say that civilian "Ion Engines I" also have a 'Combat Movement' ability of -1. The intent would be that civilian freighters should be almost stationary during a fight. A freighter shouldn't be capable of outrunning a missile or a fighter, even with a Solar Sail III.

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Perhaps by making cargo required as ammo-- have capital ship missiles/heavy bombardment missiles simulated as drones. Be nice if you couldn't reload all weapon types (ie, missile bays) via solar collectors and actually needed a production facility once in a while. :-)

Your drone idea should work as you intend, but it won't be easy. For one thing, your new missiles will be able to fly from one system to another on their own - they won't be restricted to the combat screen. For another, you may have trouble balancing the cargo sizes. You should be able to do it though.

It will require careful adjustment of drone components and supply, yes. But it's okay if a planet or ship can launch drones to attack several sectors away in a system.

What component abilities control the following behaviors:

"May or may not have the ability to warp through warp points."

"May or may not be under Player control (depends on components)."

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More types of warp points are definitely needed, and there should be a reason to equip explorer ships with sensors.

Agreed, although these are largely hard code issues. Still, you might be able to do something that I might not think possible- After all I'm not amodder myself.

To start with, I was going to create different warp points with different turbulence damage levels. If you expect all interstellar ships to at least have minimal armor and/or shielding, that could serve prevent drones & fighters from crossing warp points, because they can't take the damage of the crossing. Or maybe only the larger sizes could make a transit with advanced tech, thus giving a potential to do more with warp point transits as choke points...?

I also need to do something which lets me turn an asteroid field into a source of 'kinetic bolides' which could then be used to bombard planets from the edges of a system, at least if the attacker is given enough time to construct such weapons. Small ones just kill pop. and reduce planet values. Big ones have 'Destroy Planet Size'.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.
-Chuck

"What component abilities control the following behaviors:

"May or may not have the ability to warp through warp points."

"May or may not be under Player control (depends on components).""

none..you just ran into one of the quirks of the data files. Namely, the descriptions tend to be out of data and somewhat inaccurate. This was never implimented.

Phoenix-D

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Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
none..you just ran into one of the quirks of the data files. Namely, the descriptions tend to be out of data and somewhat inaccurate. This was never implimented.

Thanks-- you just saved me from experimenting.

Gods, this game engine has so much potential as it stands, but if all of the abilities were fully orthogonal rather than being overloaded, the configurability would go way up. For instance, it would be really useful if most or all of the distinctions between unit types, ships, and starbases were a result of component abilities.

It might also help reduce the complex interdependencies between the data files, which would make life easier for modding since changes wouldn't interfere with each other as much. It would also make the process of tuning easier because changes would be more localized and you wouldn't have to rebalance components, damage ratios, etc.

Well, I suspect I'm going to have a busy Memorial Day weekend with this as it is...perhaps I should start with smaller changes.

-Chuck

I really want to have supply lines, like keeping ships supplies with tangible supplies and having to protect these lines from cloaked invaders (i have been wanting to do this since C&C, and red alert came out). Then cloaking would have yet another use and tricky *** generals could relle start to kcik booty.

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Originally posted by Skulky:
I really want to have supply lines, like keeping ships supplies with tangible supplies and having to protect these lines from cloaked invaders (i have been wanting to do this since C&C, and red alert came out). Then cloaking would have yet another use and tricky *** generals could relle start to kcik booty.

Is there a way to stop the three resource types from being teleported wherever needed, and thus require one to actually transport organics to mining worlds, radioactives and minerals from mining worlds to the homeworld (for using in building things), and manufactured products (aka ships/units/cargo) to close the loop?

For that matter, it would be interesting if diplomatic guestures like trades actually required shipping freighters full of resources to the other race's designated trading port or production facility, depending on trust and convenience.

"Finite resources" doesn't seem to work that way, but hopefully something can still be done. For instance, I was thinking of making planet and mobile-ship-bourne shipyard production very limited (except for the homeworld!), and require one to construct starbases in order to produce starships in a sane amount of time.

Ah. I begin to see why people want components to be able to produce resources, intelligence, etc. :-) Wow, thank you, Derek, PvK, SJ, & dogscoff, the others in the TDM modpack, and anyone else who should be thanked (and Aaron/MM). Comparing the different ideas between the different mods has helped me to understand quite a bit more about how the game works.

-Chuck

Has anyone else tried to represent the three resource types to represent production, food, and energy? Have factories mine minerals and have the production cost of everything be represented as that. Have organics be food production, and have total organics maintenance represent orbital supply lines for perishable commodities. Ie, run out of organics and your crews are starving. So crew quarters, supply bays, and emergency resupply all require tons of food and have a high organics maintainance.

Doesn't matter if your home planet has tons of food on the ground if you don't have the orbital infrastructure to keep your crews fed in the next system. :-)

Keep in mind that a turn is 30 days.

So the resource converter is not out of the question or unbalancing.

The Stars! resource gathering will not work in SEIV style.

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Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Keep in mind that a turn is 30 days.

Certainly. Hmm, I don't want to get bogged down in the specifics of implementation yet, particularly as I don't know enough about what other people have already tried.

I'm reasonably familiar with the 'standard game' and TDM-modpack (probably ~50 games total), and it seems like most people discuss and make changes in proportion to that. Becoming familiar with, say, how DevNull or Derek's mod alters these balances will take a bit of time and a few games, not that there is anything wrong with having to play a 'few' games of SEIV. :-)

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So the resource converter is not out of the question or unbalancing.

The Stars! resource gathering will not work in SEIV style.

Yes. I suspect you're also cautioning me indirectly to learn the difference between feasible ideas (ie, ones which do not require modifications to the game engine or hard-coded functionality) and ideas which are non-feasible short of divine intervention from Aaron. Well, that's certainly good advice.

-Chuck

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In P&N v2.6 (currently being tested) I have made SE4 into a finite supplies game.

There are no quantum reactors, or resupply depots.
Bases have limited supplies as well, so you need to build in solar panels or send a tankership every now and then.

There are supersized solar panels for bases, with no tech requirements, so you can actually resupply your first ships in a low tech game.

When a ship runs out of supplies, they lost shields, weapons and movement, so supply lines are very important.

In addition, supplies represent physical ammo and fuel. Your DUCs will bleed supplies, but will cost next to nothing to build (small amount of minerals, no organics, single-digit radioactives)
Missile weapons are even more so.
Energy based weapons like the meson bLasters and Incinerator beams require only 1 or 2 supplies per shot.

Energy requirements are represented by radioactives cost (so the Meson bLasters are very expensive rad-wise), and people requirements are represented by organics cost. Psychic weapons, and biological stuff of any sort all require organics.