*** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Greetings.

This thread will serve as the official discussion for the proposed TNG-Mod - A Star Trek Mod for SE:IV Gold based on the "The Next Generation" timeline.

The original proposal is here:
Original Proposal

You can find the link to the TNG-Mod homepage in my signature. It gives a brief description of the Mod and has a link to a growing list of techs and ideas for the TNG-Mod.

Already I have recieved some help + files from some people and I'm looking forward to getting more. Don't worry if you don't have a lot of time or maybe the know how to Mod - even an idea can be helpful.

I'm still looking for some volunteers to help make some SEIV style shipsets. I kind of want to make the Federation shipset myself, but if you would like to make another one of the six races, just let me know.

I plan on putting together some of the basic common components tomorrow as an indication of my commitment to the Mod. I will try to post updates often.

Remember - The more help I can get, the sooner the Mod will be done and the better it will be

So, if you think you'll use this Mod - a friendly contribution of some ideas, play testing, or just plain old text editing - would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in Advance, Luke aka Captain Kwok

[ June 10, 2003, 05:55: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Nobody has made any comment on my Propulsion and Defenses post, back on the old thread you linked to.

Speechless with awe? with horror? Just haven't finished reading it yet?

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

SJ - Interesting idea for the nascelles but I think the propulsion model with stick with the SE:IV standard except larger ships will require additional engines per move. It will follow the same level as the mounts for weapons do.

Light Mount - 1 engine per move - 150 to 300kT
Medium Mount - 2 engines per move - 400 to 600kT
Heavy Mount - 3 engines per move - 800 to 1000kT

I believe this system will work towards balancing the firepower/kT of the ships and make it quite feasible to use ships of all sizes for the duration of the game.

The damage idea though I am interested in. I haven't experimented much with the different armor options but it seems like your idea is quite fitting with Star Trek. I think I will try a few experiments and see how it goes.

The forum has been down almost all day so I haven't been able to check for any replies so that's why I haven't made any comments earlier.

What do you think of some of my test images? I think they turned out pretty good and once I do some touch ups even better. I even put together a Klingon Vor'Cha Attack cruiser and it looks good too!

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I'm kind of interested in seeing how fighters are handled in the Star Trek universe. From what I remember, there wasn't any mention of fighters or fighter carriers in any Star Trek series. Perhaps you could rename them Gunboats or something and use them only for planet/system defence. Or perhaps keep them as a tech for Neutral races.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Actually, if you think about it, shuttlecraft(Federation), runabouts(Federation) and scoutships(Romulan) classify as fighters in the ST-TNG universe, so those would naturally be the names that the fighters take on in the TNG-Mod....

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Federation relied on fighters and shuttles in warfare somewhat. But they use a *carrier*: Akira and that... kitbash... thing. Forget the name.

Romulans really didn't but they seemed to have runabouts. They have cloaking devices.

Klingons make no metion of Lifeboats; shuttles; or runabouts.

Dominion had Fighters that were about big as the Defiant; go figure.

Borg uses NO FIGHTERS WHATSOEVER.

Ferengi uses Shuttles.

Breen doesn't mention one.

Cardassians have the Hidekis. The small snakes that get bLasted a lot.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Yea, and that would make the fighter bay a shuttle bay! I like that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Klingons using lifeboats? Oh, the dishonor!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 30, 2002, 05:21: Message edited by: Taz-in-Space ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

That's incorrect. The Federation did use fighters in several battles with the Cardassians and Dominion in Deep Space Nine. They were similiar in design to Maquis ships.

I was thinking of making fighters into a racial tech, so the Federation would have a small Shuttle, Runabout, and a Peregrine Class fighter and would be carried in a shuttlebay component.

Depending on the race, some would have fighters but most would only have a shuttle/scout sized vessel instead.

Cardassian Hideki class ships would be more suited as escort-sized ships.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Found the following on the web:

Class A - Gas Supergiant Planets of this class are usually found in a star's outer or "cold zone". They are typically 140 thousand to 10 million kilometers in diameter and have high core temperatures causing them to radiate heat. Low stellar radiation and high planet gravity enables them to keep a tenuous surface comprised of gaseous hydrogen and hydrogen compounds.
Class B - Gas Giant Class B Planets are usually found in a star's outer or "cold zone". They are typically 50 thousand to 140 thousand kilometers in diameter and have high core temperatures but do not radiate much heat. Low stellar radiation and high planet gravity enables them to keep a tenuous surface comprised of gaseous hydrogen and hydrogen compounds.
Class C - Reducing Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "habitable zone". They are typically 10 to 15 thousand kilometers in diameter. They have high surface temperatures due to the "greenhouse effect" caused by their dense atmospheres. The only water found is in vapor form.
Class D - Geo PLastic Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "habitable zone". They are typically 10,000 to 15,000 kilometers in diameter. They have a molten surface because they have been recently formed. The atmosphere contains many hydrogen compounds and reactive gases. Class D planets eventually cool, becoming Class E.
Class E - Geo Metallic Planets of this class have a molten core and are usually found in a star's "habitable zone". They are typically 10,000 to 15,000 kilometers in diameter. Their atmospheres still contain hydrogen compounds. They will cool further eventually becoming Class F.
Class F - Geo Crystaline Class F planets are usually found in a star's "habitable zone". They are typically 10 to 15 thousand kilometers in diameter and have surfaces that are still crystalizing. Their atmospheres still contain some toxic gases. They will cool eventually becoming Class C, M or N.
Class G - Desert Planets of this class can be found in any of a star's zones. They are typically 8 to 15 thousand kilometers in diameter. Their surfaces are usually hot. Their atmospheres contain heavy gases and metal vapors.
Class H - Geo-Thermal Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "habitable zone" or "cold zone". They are typically 1,000 to 10,000 kilometers in diameter. They have partially molten surfaces and atmospheres that contain many hydrogen compounds. They cool becoming Class L.
Class I - Asteroid / Moon Planetary bodies of this class can be found in any of a star's zones. They are usually found in orbit of larger planets or in asteriod fields. They are typically 100 to 1,000 kilometers in diameter. They have no atmospheres. Their surfaces are barren and cratered.
Class J - Geo-Morteus Planets of this class are found in a star's "hot zone". They are typically 1,000 to 10,000 kilometers in diameter. They have high surface temperatures due to the proximty to the star. Their atmospheres are extremely tenuous with few chemically active gases.
Class K - Adaptable Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "habitable zone". They are adaptable for humanoid colonization through the use of pressure domes and other life support devices. They are typically 5,000 to 10,000 kilometers in diameter. They have thin atmospheres. Small amounts of water are present.
Class L - Geo-Inactive Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "habitable zone" or "cold zone". They are typically 1,000 to 10,000 kilometers in diameter. Low solar radiation and minimal internal heat usually result in a frozen atmosphere.
Class M - Terrestrial Planets of this class are found in a star's "habitable zone". They are typically 10,000 to 15 thousand kilometers in diameter. They have atmospheres that contain oxygen and nitrogen . Water and life-forms are typically abundant. If water covers more than 97% of the surface, then they are considered Class N.
Class N - Pelagic Class N planets are usually found in a star's "habitable zone". They are typically 10,000 to 15 thousand kilometers in diameter. They have atmospheres that contain oxygen and nitrogen . Water and life-forms are typically abundant. If water covers less than 97% of the surface, then they are considered Class M.
Class S - Near Star Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "cold zone". They are typically 50 million to 120 million kilometers in diameter and have high core temperatures causing them to radiate heat and light. These are the largest possible planets, because most planetary bodies that reach this size do become stars.
Class T - Gas Ultragiant Planets of this class are usually found in a star's "cold zone". They are typically 10 to 50 million kilometers in diameter. They have high core temperatures causing them to radiate enough heat to keep water in a liquid state.
Class Y - Demon Class Y - Demon Planets and planetoids of this class can be found in any of a star's zones. They are typically 10,000 to 15 thousand kilometers in diameter. Atmospheric conditions are often turbulent and saturated with poisonous chemicals and thermionic radiation. Surface temperatures can reach in excess of 500 K.
Starfleet Note: Communication is frequently impossible, and transport may be difficult. Simply entering orbit is a dangerous prospect. No known environment is less hospitable to humanoid life than a Class Y planetary body.

Some planet classes have SEIV analogs others don't...

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Here is the main lineup for Federation ships:

Escort - Nova Class
Frigate - Inteprid Class
Destroyer - Defiant Class
Light Cruiser - Excelsior Class
Cruiser - Nebula Class
Battle Cruiser - Akira Class
Battleship - Galaxy Class
Dreadnought - Sovreign Class

However, I think I will add a few additional racial hulls for ships like the Steamrunner or Prometheus class ships.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Class D - Geo PLastic Planets

I thought PLastic was man made and not natural?

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You wanted help, Mr. Kwok. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Methinks; since you said that this was to be in TNG, it should go like this:

Escort should be oberth; predecessor of Nova.

Intrepid shouldn't be in there, since their *Foldly go where no man has folded before* nacelle is after they find out that the Feddies pollute space with their warp engines.

Excelsior, even though VERY OLD, is still pretty large; maybe cruiser?

Miranda should go in there, as it is still widely used by starfleet.

Technically, Ent-D is larger than Ent-E; just that Ent-D has a reputation for getting fragged lots; even by a single warbird.

Streamrunner, Norway, Sabre, Galaxy, Miranda, Excelsior, Olympic, Nebula, Defiant, Akira, Various Cheap looking shuttles, Sydney, and Constitution are *Trekkie* Approved for TNG.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Ships in General:

Klingon
-------
Small Klingon ships will tend to the multi-sized Birds of Prey. Larger Klingon ships will be based on the Vor'Cha design and the largest ships will be the Neghvar or similiar design.

Romulan
-------
Romulan small ships will be similiar to the scout ships seen on TNG. Larger ships will be various designs of warbird like ships.

Dominion
--------
Small Dominion ships will be a few various themes on the Jem'Hadar fighter design. Larger ships will include the battleship and super battleship designs seen in several DS9 episodes.

Cardassians
-----------
Cardassian ships will include the Hideki, Galor, and Keldon designs plus a few custom variants to fill the gaps.

Ferengi
-------
Ferengi ships will generally be similiar to the Maurauder design but I might choose to do some custom designs to flesh out the fleet.

The Borg
--------
A few sphere, cube, and diamond designs will round out smaller ships with larger cubes for bigger ships. Additional hull sizes will be added to create the big borg ships like the Tatical cubes and such.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Yuck. No Oberth and especially no Mirandas - they were just cannon foder for the Dominion.

The Mod is actually takes place later in the TNG timeline after the Dominion War.

Excelsior class ships are large at about 440m but they are small in actually volume and based on fire power below most other Federation ships.

Akira is about 450m, Nebula is about 450m, Galaxy is 641m and Sovreign 670m.

Sovreign will be the Dreadnought for sure as it carries much more firepower than a Galaxy class ship although it occupies less volume.

I will probably add more ship hulls and make some images for them...I have really enjoyed making ships today - so much so that I might not want any help to finish them!!!

[ May 30, 2002, 06:06: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Few thing to think when making variants.

Klingons: Two Nacelles, Dagger/knife shaped, long neck and dark green plating. Add some rust to the texture. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Romulan: High Tech, Bird in Attack position shaped, long neck, hollow inners for big ships, light green plating.

Cardassian: Big head, small tail. Snake shaped. Has to look Industrial or practical. Dark Beige in color always a bridge protruding from front or middle.

Dominion: Purple. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ferengi: Try to focus on Ferengi Race Symbol and make some variations on it. Another thing to remember: *Dog eat Dog world*

Borg: Polygons. Any Polygons will do, if it seems Efficient. So No Octagons or Pyramids.

Edit: And I gotta say, I have never seen a more cuter Borg cube.

*Ahh crap a borg cube... But it's so small and cute and... assimilated my ship.*

[ May 30, 2002, 06:07: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

TerranC - Have you seen the couple of images I put together so far? Check the TNG Mod page and scroll down. I added some textures today.

As we speak I am working on the Nebula and Akira class ships. Nebula is easy as all I have to is reconfigure the ship parts and add a couple of pods. Akira is a bit more challenging but is shaping up to look nice.

I have made a Klingon Vor'Cha attack cruiser as well. I will post it once I make some textures for it.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Wow. This all sounds really cool! I wish I had heard about it a few weeks ago!
Sometime Last month, I got fed up waiting for someone to create a "big" Trek Mod so I started designing my own. I am about 30-40% done but now I hear about this. If I would have know about your mod I would never have started mine. Oh well. Perhaps, you could use some of the ideas I've already added in my unreleased mod.

Btw, I don't intend or want to "steal your thunder." I think this is a great mod and totally dig your ideas of new ships, etc. But, I've actually found that making a mod is almost as addictive as the game itself so I am going to continue with my mod anyway. There are many differences b/t what you are creating and what mine will end up being, but I'll post about mine later.

Now-(finally) getting to the point of helping you out. I got SJ to add some of the pics I had collected to the ImageMod. I think they would be useful in your mod too. These are just Component files now (ImageMod Version 1.11 I think) but I am planning on adding Facility pics to the ImageMod once I reach that stage of my design process. The new ImageMod pics include pics of things such as Federation Phasers, Romulan Disrupters, Bathleths, Different colors of Warp Reactors, Ferengi Mind Control devices, etc. Anyway, just check it out if interested. Also, I have completed all weapons and armor types for the basic 5 trek races plus the dominion (I'm adding the Borg after much play-testing). After I have tested them out and reworked them, I'd be willing to let you take a look at or use those files.

Best of luck with this mod! I am really looking forward to playing it!

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I've updated the site with a little more information about the propulsion and colonization models I mentioned earlier in the thread.

Here are some more General Ideas regarding facilities:

Facilities - In general, facilities like Mineral Miners et al, Research + Intelligence centres, and Spaceports/Depots etc, will remain common to all races. Bonus facilities like Citizen Databank, or Computer Complex will become unique racial facilities like Tal'Shiar Headquarters or Daystrom Institute. Ship training will be handled by race specific Fleet Academies and Fleet training by Command Centres.

I am also looking for a little creative license to fill out each race. For example, the Ferengi might use an "Anti-Proton Beam" although the series did not ever suggest that. So, if you have any ideas along those lines feel free to add them as well.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I've had a couple of questions in regards to cloaking. This is what I propose:

I will increase the number of cloak levels to 5 and adjust the natural cloaks of nebulae accordingly. All races will have access to the cloak tree until level III - with only the Klingons and Romulans access to IV + V as suggested by Mac5732. All races will have access to sensors that can detect cloaks.

Hyperoptic Sensors I-III - Defeat level I-III cloak
Tachyon Sensors I-V - Defeat level I-V cloak
Gravitic Sensors I-V - Defeat level I-V cloak

I also think I may decrease the size of sensors and cloaks to 20kT while keeping them a little on the expensive side.

I'm currently working on updating the tech list and will hopefully post it on the site later today.

Edited for a typo.
Please continue to send/post comments or suggestions. Thanks.

[ May 30, 2002, 20:32: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Ok. I gave the tech list on the TNG site an update with a couple dozen entries. I will stick a little *Update # each time I add something to it so that you can check it out.

I need help with coming up with more custom facilities and components...feel free to suggest everything that comes to mind. It doesn't have to adhere to Star Trek canon but should fit in with the demeanor of the race.

My brain is sore from thinking of ideas - I think I'll work on some ship pics because it's a bLast and wait for more replies.

[ May 30, 2002, 21:42: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Every few months someone tries to take up the banner for a trek mod. I love the idea.

An excellent source for trek technology and starships is Spacedock.

This can be found for free at
http://216.40.212.6/trek/core/comp_core_netbooks.htm

There are also books on several of the major races.

Hope you find it useful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Go to these sites for your help.

Ex Astris Scientia - General Info of Trek

The Daystrom Institute - General Info of Trek Ships

Omicron Theta - Info of Specific Tech, also with a acronym table

Star Trek Schematics - a good help if you are lost on designs.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't see how this is going to work. You can't make mounts that will increase an engine's thrust; component mounts don't change ability amounts.

If you're making these manually, and simply naming them "light mount engine I", then players are just going to stuff the maximum amount of the highest efficiency drive on every ship they own.

Can you explain what you're doing with these engines a bit more?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"PLastic" in this case in referring to the opposite of "Brittle", or in other words, the surface rock is smushy, play-doh like stuff. (Don't touch, very hot!)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"Ablative" means that bits of it come off when it gets hit. Nothing to do with reflectivity, and shininess really means nothing in Trek Combat.

Also, I believe in the first contact (TNG) with the Ferengi, they used a WMG on the enterprise. (Rapidly switching Tractor/Repulsor beam)
You could use that name for their racial weapon. (probably not good to use anything like the SE4 stats)

[ May 31, 2002, 00:10: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie. ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

SJ - You misunderstand. I am not trying to devise a mount for engines - that is impossible.

Ships that use "Light Mount" for weapons like a frigate will use only one engine per move. Ships that use "Medium Mount" for weapons like a light cruiser will use two engines per move. Ships that use the "Heavy Mount" like a battleship will need 3 engines per move.

The reason for this is that the ships that have the bigger mount weapons (hence, more damage/kT) will need to use more space for engines.

Sorry for the confusion.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

SJ - Regarding the Ablative armor it actually dissapites the incoming energy first and then if the damage is too severe breaks off.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

RE: Propulsion.

So, you've pretty much given up on the entire nacelle thing, and the nacelles only exist in the pretty pictures of the ships?
The engines you're talking about making seem to have no relation to any ST system.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Everything has a heat capacity, plus a little bit of heat conduction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
The ablativeness of the armor kicks in to throw excessively hot flakes of armor into space where they won't harm the ship they used to be sitting on.

It dosen't reflect the beam or anything. Just sacrifices bits of itself for the good of the rest of the armor.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Kwok:
Did you happen to look at the file that I referenced in the other thread? It has some Trek facilities that I made. Here it is again, just in case:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1015288527.zip

Oh, and btw, the Last I checked, the Ground Combat modifier ability for facilities did not work.

[ May 31, 2002, 04:33: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

SJ...

Actually I was thinking of something like this:

Nascelle Engine
"Engine coil in a ship's nascelle that generates movement for the ship"

Think of them as the little coils in the cutaway pics of the nascelle. They would remain as 10kT comps and would generate 1 standard movement points with increasing movement bonuses as the tech level increased. There would be ten levels with every two representing an expensive and cheaper Version. As previously mention larger ships would still require more engines.

As you suggested - "Impulse Engines" would be 20kT and generate only combat movement. There would be 3 tech levels with each level generating a 1,2, or 3 bonus. Only One per ship allowed. However this might change. It a recent beta of SEIV, MM added "One per Ship" to "Ten per Ship" for comps. Maybe we can make impulse engines to 10kT with 1 bonus and 5 levels with a max of 3 or 4 per ship.

I would like to cap the max speed for ships around 10-12 for System movement and 10 for combat movement.

Fyron - Yep. I got the facilities before. Thanks. Some good ideas in there.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

...and I know the little coils are really warp coils but hey, I think it's good enough.

I was goint to make engines without supplies and requiring a reactor (aka warp core/anti-matter reactor) that stores supplies - then get rid of the supply storage altogether. There would be maybe 5 tech levels each holding a certain number of supplies (from 2500-10000?) before needing to be replenished.

SJ - About Ablative armor - what characteristic should it have, nitpicker?

[ May 31, 2002, 05:41: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Ablative Armor:
Size- 1 kt
Damage Resistance- rather high (at least competitive with contemporary shields)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok. I just didn't see very many in the list. Also, I didn't see any mention of me as a contributer. Sniff. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Not that it really matters that much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Also, consider using my formations.txt. It is a compilation of a lot of formations that I found in various mods a while back. I plan on updating it after the next patch, which will up the slots to 100. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Fyron - Woops I knew I was leaving someone out...and don't worry more of your facilities will make it in. I decided to keep the basic research and intelligence centres as are but use racial ones for the bonuses...so a few of those ones would be in. Plus that list is far from complete.

I don't want to make the armor too small - most likely 5kT+.

[ May 31, 2002, 06:19: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Ok.

If the armor is 5 kt, then it loses the "ablative" feel to it. Maybe 2 or 3 kt? I mean, 5 kt is half of normal armor. Ablative is supposed to have small chunks peel off, not 50% of the stuff. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: Oh yeah, making it 1 kt is good. It is supposed to have a higher Damage/Kiloton ratio than contemporary shields, so if it is 1 kt, it will take a long time to repair. Mostly a balancing issue.

[ May 31, 2002, 06:27: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Is there anything I can do? Perhaps come up with a nice DesignNames for each race. Will that help? I want to help, so let me know.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is no point in making the impulse drives two-per ship or three-per-ship.
Combat movement dosen't stack, at least not on multiple copies of the same component.

You might try making "Primary Impulse Engine" and "Secondary Impulse Engine" as components with different family numbers. If that dosen't stack, nothing will.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is this going to be a "supplies = power generated", or "supplies = fuel" system?

I still think we could give all of the bonus movement points to the main reactor, rather than to high-tech nacelle coils.

Now, if you're going with a supplies = fuel system, leave the reactor and all drives supply-less. Losing the reactor means you most of your speed, and some other miscellaneous abilities. Have antimatter storage pods store 5000 supplies or so worth of fuel.
Too bad my suggestion for "explodes when destroyed" ability wasn't implemented http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Would have been nice to use here.

If you're going with the supplies = power, the impulse drives should generate 100, the main reactor 1000, and auxiliary reactors 50 each (about 1/6th the space taken by an impulse drive).
Scale to fit, and tweak the systemtypes.txt to ensure an invisible star in every system.

PS: Thanks, Fyron, for arguaing all of my armor points for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 31, 2002, 14:56: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie. ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

SJ - Ok. That's right - I don't know what I was thinking about the combat bonus not stacking. That solves one problem.

If we give the bonus move points to the reactor than it will make it vulnerable to engine-destroying weapons too right? So maybe we'll do that. Also, I don't want the reactor to generate supplies - so that means you'll have to refuel every so often (aka replacing your dilithium crystal etc). Ramscoops will replace solar panels and generate only a small amount of supplies - so that the ship still has a net loss of supplies per turn.

How about making Anti-Matter Pods (good thinking!) for emergency supplies instead of supply storage?

I've had a little trouble understanding how the exploding panels work - perhaps you can provide me with a sample component so I can see it in action?

And another armor point - ablative armor is not five times stronger than shields...it's tought but not that tough. If we make it too strong than everyone will use it for protection (even if it does take effort to repair) instead of shields + armor and aside from that silly "Endgame" batman armor VOY episode - Federation ships just don't do that. It should be equal in strength to make shields.

How much armor would you put on a ship in kT? I usually have 20-80kT depending on the ship. Maybe make most armor 4-5kT in size? That means about 5-20 components per ship which is more than enough to get that wounded feeling.

In regards to the no-true carriers etc - what do you think? Make sense?

Atrocities - name files would be greatly appreciated!

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Ok. I updated the site making some info changes regarding the propulsion model and updated the tech list with some more comps and added most of the general facilities. I also edited the previous engine model adding to it some of the new ideas.

There is another issue creeping up. Should some races have additional bonuses while others do not? For example, Klingons are not scientists - should they still get research modifiers? On the other hand they would probably get a couple of combat bonuses instead to balance it out. However, I'm sure some races might be at a general disadvantage such as the Cardassians or Ferengi since they are less advanced on Star Trek - do you think this is okay?

[ May 31, 2002, 19:32: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

The Ferengi are supposedly about the same as the Federation in TNG; as their maurauders can give some damage to a Galaxy Class.

But the thing is, The Federation is advanced on one side (Scientific), while the Ferengi is on the other (Economy). Also, ships are really expensive so only big business are allowed to have them.

+5 to trade
+5 all resource aptitude
-10 to Maintenance

Cardassians have the ability to research faster than the Federation; but don't have the moolah to make up for it; hence the occupation and genocide and all that.

+5 Research
-10 to mining and radioactive aptitude

Klingons are also scientific; but have bloated military budgets and science doesn't seem honorable.

+5 Space Combat
-5 Maintenance Aptitude
-5 Repair Aptitude
-2 Research

Feddies are Scientific, versatile, all around good guys; Although their defensive maneuvers don't always work to their favor, and scheming ways are taboo. Newer class ships are not always built all the time, but Resourceful crews keep ships in top shape.

+5 Research
+5 Defense
-5 Space Combat
-5 Space Yard
-5 Intelligence
+5 Maintenance
+5 Repair

[ May 31, 2002, 20:58: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That sounds like cultural choice.

If you want to strictly enforce it, by making a part of the "Klingon" racial tech area, then you'll have to make all research centers require the racial techs as well as the normal tech...
Then, a klingon analysing a fed research center would gain generic research tech. This would allow the klingons to go from "Klingon Research Center I" to "KRC II", say. (If research centers could be analysed; just replace research with energy weapons, or whatever tech)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It should. You could also try giving it a "standard movement" ability of zero if it dosen't count as an engine just by having bonus movement ability.
Be sure to increase the engine limit by 1 for the ship hulls!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, no. Those were two different cases.

You can have supplies = power generated. That means the main reactor, the impulse drive's fusion reactors, and any auxiliary reactors you wish to add will all generate as much supplies as they store. Fuel capacity would be ignored, and we could say that the maintenance costs include too-small-to-see civilian ships coming to refuel & restock the ship.

OR you can have supplies = fuel, as unmodded SE4 does.
None of the reactors produce any supplies, or store supplies, rather they just provide abilities. In this case, the antimatter pods would provide all of the supply storage for the entire ship.

You can't mix those two options.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Name := Midrange Armor Class 1A
Description := An all-purpose protective plating. Less overall strength that Light armor,
but not as easily pierced by weapons fire. (Absorbs a higher % of hits)
Pic Num := 30
Tonnage Space Taken := 3
Tonnage Structure := 25
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := All
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Armor
Family := 5201
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := None</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since the "armor" has 25 hitpoints, and most of the internals are less than 25, this component will be hit more often than the internals.
That makes it act like armor.

However, it is "more often" is not "all the time", and some shots will hit internals before the armor.

The only thing that you need to change about the internal components in order for this to work properly is to make sure they all have fewer hitpoints thatn the armor.

This applies mostly to large or heavy mount weapons, but this is a trek mod, and we want the weapons to be disabled easily once the shields are down, so their hitpoints should be low anyways.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I like to devote about 40% of my ship to defenses. That's 200 KT for a cruiser.

If it were to be 50:50 shields to armor mass, 2KT ablative armors would be OK, for 50 components.

That would mean a ship that just barely survived the combat would take 6 months to repair at a Repair Bay III.

1 KT ablative armor would be better, but you seem intent on having those massive armor plates.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't know where you got that idea. When me or Fyron say "strength comparable to shields" we mean hitpoints per KT size is comparable.

If a shield element is 10 KT, and 500 hitpoints, a 1KT ablative armor would be 60 hitpoints, say.
An armor-only ship would spend a year in spacedock for every month that a shield-only ship spent. And that's only if the ships were thrashed to within a few components of destruction.
A shielded ship can lose half its hitpoints every battle and never weaken, while the armor-ship would be dead after two battles.

In any event, the armor and shields are complimentary.
Having more shields will allow you to deflect a greater percentage of the incoming damage, and the armor allows your shields to maintain that deflection rate longer.

All armor = no damage reduction = ship is screwed.
All shields = minimal damage reduction = ship is screwed.
(generators are destroyed by the first partially penetrating volleys, and so the crystalline effect has almost no time to operate)

Edit: post was breaking the boundaries of the screen

[ May 31, 2002, 21:12: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie. ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

No. Since I am making production, research, intel bonuses part of the racial tech, some races like the Klingons would not have facilities like "Computer complex" to generate extra research points. They would be limited to just the regular research labs...

Or we can just reduce their natural ability in the culture file. Either way is fine.

SJ:

Supplies = Power (Usually from Anti-Matter)

In regards to reactors. The supplies represent the anti-matter in the reactor needed to power the reactor - in that sense it generates all the power the ship needs. Once that anti-matter is depleted than the ship is out of power and has no supplies. Anti-Matter Pods will hold extra anti-matter. Impulse engines could provide a little power from their reactors but not much. Ramscoops collect interstellar hydrogen which is just a minor power source.

Does that clear things up?

[ May 31, 2002, 21:59: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

As for modifiers : IMO some should be represented by special facilities, as Kwok proposed, but others, such as trade capacity of Ferengi (so increased trade revenues + maintenance reduction+ natural merchants !), or cunning of Cardassians, have to be racial modifiers...
Armor : in Trek world there's no real armor IIRC, so they should be rare... but I'm more of a TOS and SFB guy than a TNG one, so ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No problem!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Umm... wrong. There are several races that do not use shields, and instead rely on powerful armor, such as the Hirogen.

Klingon's should get engines with high damage resistance. In DS9, their's were the only ships capable of resisting the Breen energy weapons that knocked out power systems and such.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*Sigh*
No.

You say "supplies = power", but then you describe "supplies = fuel"

If you are going with a supplies = fuel (standard SE4 system), then your ships will always have enough power to run all their systems 100% all the time. Until they run out of fuel, then weapons, shields, engines, etc, all go offline.

Definitions:
Power: Energy (used) per unit time.
Fuel: Total energy capacity.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

SJ:

Yeah, ok, so technically you're right P = E/t. I've been very absent minded today. Anti-Matter is but the fuel. The important part is that it looks like we're getting to a good system for propulsion.

Geez - where would I be without SJ kicking my butt?

One reason why I do not want to get too complicated with propulsion requiring lots of different components is for programming the AI - I want the AI to be the best it can be and make the TNG Mod fun to play solo as well as multiplayer.

Back to another issue regarding cultural modifiers and racial abilities. Should all races have equal access to production/research/intel bonus facilities and just allow the cultural modifiers to be the penalty for a poor race attribute or should we restrict access to bonus facilities that contribute extra points to a race's weak field and also reduce their ability with a cultural modifier?

I've continued to build some ships and just need to add some texture maps for the Federation Defiant Class destroyer.

As usual, continue to send in ideas for components and facilities as there can never be enough of those. I'm not sure if anyone noticed but I added some extra cloak levels plus a few stellar manipulation techs. I'm calling the warp point opener a "Transwarp Conduit" but may also consider it a "Wormhole Generator"? This is kind of a slippery slope explaining the warp point system in star trek terms but it's an important part of the SEIV game. If MM were to include an ability where a created warp point closed after a turn then we could create a warp engine that generates the warp point and impulse to handle system movement but that seems unlikely.

That's all for now. Thanks for all the e-mails and input so far.

[ June 01, 2002, 06:25: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Where would we be where SJ doesn't nitpick everything? Political incorrectness run amok http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

On the idea of warp generators, I thought maybe you could use some of the Voyager ideas *although purely scifi-babble* of using catapults and powerful reactors to pull ships in and out.

Kinda like the Caretaker's Array.

The only catch should be is it can only be opened in bases; as a ship with such reactors can have big implications on Trek, as it does in SEIV.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

OK I'll bite.....where is the mod? I did not see any links? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I'm BACK!!!!!!!

Hey guys, been away from the Shrapnel forum for way too long. SJ knows who I am, the rest probably don't. Been away because of school but have the summer off now. Just found out about this "Star Trek: TNG" Mod a couple of days ago. Glad somebody is trying to make a good mode for Star Trek. I plan to comment and help out anyway I can to make this mod possible.

I was actually planning to make an SFB mode for this game, but got bogged down with school. Not even sure if anyone would be interested in an SFB mode.

2 things I would like to suggest though, one could we please be very careful about adding stuff from Voyager? I was never a great fan of the show and prefer the TOS, TNG, and especially DS9 shows better. The second thing, would anyone object to adding SFB ideas and Races to this mode? I know its not Star Trek cannon, but would add a unique flavor to an ST:TNG mod if you had the Borg going against say the Andromedans. Might not be possible to add every bit of SFB to this mode, but would could get fairly close.

Looking forward to helping ou the Captain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Greetings.

Unfortunately I do not see any of SFB in the initial release(s) but perhaps in the future a few of races can be incorporated into the Mod. Currently the Mod takes place after the Dominion War and will tend to adhere to most Trek canon as establish by the TV series with a little extra to help flesh out the major races.

Mottlee - This Mod is still in the planning stages. The TNG Mod link is in my signature and features some information about the Mod. I've just started to put a few things together to get to organized and hope to make some progress tomorrow with basic comps etc. Once some solid ideas are established then the work can be distributed to several people and completed faster.

I've had a few questions regarding the Systemtypes file. The current file will be arranged to distribute planets realistically with rock planets close to the sun with ice/gas giant planets further. I've got a couple of files already like this and will take a look and see if they're good to go. Since it seems most Trek races breath oxy/rock perhaps it would be wise to give a slight increase to the chance of these planets appearing. However, I'm also open to the idea of the races breathing different atmospheres - what do you think?

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Different Atmosphear...
Nah; we want to keep it Trek, we have to keep the shortsightedness of the writers.

That Includes:

Drives of the week
Everybody speaks perfect english (With a few lucky exceptions)
Someone bad becomes Someone powerful becomes someone annoying becomes someone dead with a phaser bLast
Starfleet is the best
Exploding Consoles
Dead-on *literally* Ensigns

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well there were a few that races that breathed other atmospheres. And some, like the Borg, that seemed not to need an atmosphere! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I think the current trek mod had a the increased chance for Rock/oxygen.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Greetings again.

I'm going to start work on the actual components file today with some of the common techs.

I'll probably update the site with some new stuff today as well.

Keep sending in ideas. Also if people can send in sharp images of race emblems would be good too.

If you have Moray/Pov-Ray skills and would like to make some stuff for the Mod; e-mail me.

That's all for now.

[ June 02, 2002, 16:15: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]