Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

Hello everyone. I have decided to make this official and see if I can get any programmers to respond. What I want to do is create a total conVersion for SEIV based on my Starscape universe, with the ultimate hopes of transferring it over to SEIV from Stars!, where it is now.

In order to do this, however, some major changes to the game code will be neccessary. This will involve alterations to the game on a level that most mod's dont touch. Therefore, I need programmers capable of this sort of thing. I'm no programmer, but I believe I make a good project leader, as well as an artist and sound effects designer (I've done work for the Starflight 3 project).

Here's a basic idea of what I want to do with Starscape:

Essentially, the entire game will revolve around the Hyperdrive, a component whose creation will require fundamental changes to the game's design.

The basic idea is that it is a component which will allow the ship to create a temporary warp point that leads into a sort of alternate reality of the game. The idea is that once your ship enters this alternate reality, it can travel across the map by going through the empty spaces between stars, and when it enters a system space all you see is a cool background graphic (something I can create with my artistic skills) and a warp point in the middle. Going through the central warp point would have the ship emerge from hyperspace in a random location in the system.

The alternate reality could be generated by the game based on the minimap (or the same data anyway). All it needs to do is have a bunch of empty areas that can be moved between simply by flying the ship off the edge of the screen. Areas with systems in them would use the custom graphics and have a single permanent warp point in them that leads to the corresponding system in the "real" reality.

It should also be possible for ships to encounter each other in the hyperspace reality and fight it out in deep space. Also, it should be impossible for ships with "open warp point" abilities to open warp points in hyperspace. It should also be impossible to close warp points in hyperspace (doing so would render a system completely unreachable).

Starscape games would run in maps without warp points and the hyperdrive tech would be available at the beginning of the game, or possibly with some research (different grades of hyperdrive would make the ship move faster when it was in the other reality).

Simply altering the game to allow ships to create temporary warp points to other systems won't do what I want, because I don't just want to have an alternative to warp points, I want to allow ships to travel through deep space itself (or do so by traversing hyperspace). This will no doubt require a good deal of entirely new code to be written into the game. This is why the project needs capable programmers.

For now, I'm focusing on accomplishing this task. If we can get that far, then we can focus on developing the mod in other areas (if neccessary). I will be creating most or all of the new components, but the programmers/other project members can help if they wish. What I'm thinking would be best is if the hyperspace feature can be accomplished by using a component ability (something like "enter hyperspace"), so that I could easily create a variety of hyperdrives using the component editor.

Different hyperdrive engines would allow the ship to travel at different speeds in hyperspace (this is seperate from normal system travel). This way, I can have hyperspace propulsion set up as a researchable technology field.

There are alot of ways to approach this, I'm sure, but at the moment the most important thing is simply to find at least one programmer out there capable of modifying the game code.

As always, credit is given where credit is due. All contributors will get credit on the Starscape website and in the final release of the mod.

Either reply on this thread or send me email at:
shadowstar@inficad.com

If you send email, please include "Starscape Mod" in the subject line to ensure that I get it.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

Um, I am not a lawyer, but aren't there some copyright issues or something when you start messing around with the game code? You might want to run this idea past Malfador/Shrapnel.

Just a friendly suggestion.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

Really, the pesky copyright issue can be a real show stopper. You can soup up your car, but don't touch that program!

my personal beef: copyrights are forever! should be a time limit, like patents.

OOPS, I'm definitely airing this out in the wrong place. I really can't complain about SEIV and mod support.

Yes, I program some, and enough. I certainly would not want to do a major revision without source code, good documentation, and consultations. SEIV is a one man show and if he were not totally buggy about documentation, I would not want to jump in his shoes.

[ June 12, 2002, 00:54: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

Acutally, I would think this steps on the reverse engineering laws, copyright, and many others...

i suggest getting in contact with Shrapnel & Malfador

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

What you might want to consider first, is doing almost the same thing within the current SE4 system.

Check out my FTL map.

"The basic idea is that it is a component which will allow the ship to create a temporary warp point that leads into a sort of alternate reality of the game."
This one is tough, but you could either ignore it, or you could mod ships into fighters, and then have massive jumpships as true SE4ships used to carry the fighter "ships" into hyperspace.

"The idea is that once your ship enters this alternate reality, it can travel across the map by going through the empty spaces between stars, and when it enters a system space all you see is a cool background graphic (something I can create with my artistic skills) and a warp point in the middle. Going through the central warp point would have the ship emerge from hyperspace in a random location in the system."
That is pretty much what the FTL map does. Each sector in hyperspace corresponds to one galactic map square. Where a normal space system intersects a hyperspace sector, 12 warppoints lead down to positions around the edge of the starsystem.

"It should also be possible for ships to encounter each other in the hyperspace reality and fight it out in deep space."
This happens. I also have random movement ability on the hyperspace systems to prevent blockading of the jumppoints, but that can be removed at will.

"Also, it should be impossible for ships with "open warp point" abilities to open warp points in hyperspace. It should also be impossible to close warp points in hyperspace (doing so would render a system completely unreachable)."
Simply disable those components, and remove the random events, and no worries.

IOW, combine a mod with my FTL map (or similar), and you've got what you want.

[ June 08, 2002, 04:07: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

Copyrights, as far as written works go, aren't forever...well, unless you consider 70 years after the author's death forever. If code copyrights are the same, that puts all game code out of reach until sometime late in the next century.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

IMHO the first problem encountered won't be legal... but technical, as H Aventine said, you can't modify a program without source code, reverse engineering is possible but it's VERY difficult and tricky to make other than minor change !
For me it's a no-go as long as source code is not available ... Great idea though !

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

Yes, if you are really serious about this, it is best to contact MM and work out all the details with him. Otherwise there must be a legal problem since officially you buy only a licence to use his product, not the program itself.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

I can't seem to find the SE IV EULA, but depending on how it's worded, and if you live in a state that has passed the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act (UCITA), reverse engineering the program may be illegal, as well.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

Um, you'd have to get the source code from MM if you wnat to seriously edit it. Since it is a commercial product, you'll have to shell out some money or do some reverse engineering (baaaaad idea) to get it
if your idea can be done with modding then it should be ok, but otherwise forget it

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

With a project like the one being proposed here, wouldn't there be an open source area where you could get something similar.

The changes you propose are major changes. Why not make your own game from it

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

Hmm, I know there is a free/open source Civ clone out there but I can't think if there's a 4X game or not. There are 'free' space games out there which you might be able to get the source for to adapt to what you want to do. Galaxy is one, I think, but it's supposed to play mor elike Civ than the 4X genre.

You might want to go to SourceForge.net and search to see what sorts of projects they are carrying.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Reverse engineering is a complicated topic, and the fact that the author encourages "mods" means that the interfaces represented by the public datafiles constitutes a public AI. Of course, Aaron owns the rights to both SEIV as a game, and the _data_ contained within those files, no questions about that, just as every individual mod author deserves credit for their own work.

In other words, writing a copy of the game and shipping the data files, images, or what have you from SE4 would not be okay. Aaron deserves to be paid for his work, and anyone changing SE4 should have paid for a copy. But it is okay to create changes to the data and ship those changes to other legitimate owners of the game-- that's what mods are, after all. :-)

Anyway, I haven't been wasting time-- I've been doing some coding myself. I need to clean it up and get my log4j stuff sane, but I'll try to put it on the web later today or tomorrow. Anyway, what I've written is a "universal SE4 data parser" which stores data in a LinkedHashMap for preserving item order, yet permits fast Queries.

It can also read data from several mods at once, keeping each "mod" or World seperate so that you can compare them in different ways. I'll include the output below, which shows each file, how many items per file (ie, and how big each item is), and what the Name+Description of the first item in each file (if present, was).

-Chuck

Path = d:\games\Space Empires IV Gold\Data
number of files under 'Data': 27
Path = d:\games\Space Empires IV Gold\Chuck_Baseline\Data
number of files under 'Chuck_Baseline\Data': 27
Path = d:\games\Space Empires IV Gold\Derek's Mod\Data
number of files under 'Derek's Mod\Data': 28
Path = d:\games\Space Empires IV Gold\DevnullModGold\Data
number of files under 'DevnullModGold\Data': 28
Path = d:\games\Space Empires IV Gold\Pirates&NomadsV3.0\Data
number of files under 'Pirates&NomadsV3.0\Data': 29
Path = d:\games\Space Empires IV Gold\TDM-ModPack_310\Data
number of files under 'TDM-ModPack_310\Data': 28
EmpireTypes.txt, line #23!nSI: blank line found in a mono-tuple list

Main: World 'Data' being loaded, parsed, & reset.
world.reset() on 'Data'

Filename:
Data\Abilities.txt item count: 139 item size: 1

Data\CompEnhancement.txt item count: 10 item size: 14
Larger sized weapon mount which increases damage from the weapon by 2 times. Req
uires a vehicle size of at least 400kT. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons.

Data\Components.txt item count: 487 item size: 28
'Rock Colony': Materials needed to start a colony on a rock planet.

Data\Cultures.txt item count: 14 item size: 12
'Neutral': A race with no specific advantages or disadvantages.

Data\DefaultColonyTypes.txt item count: 8 item size: 1
'Military Installation':
Data\DefaultDesignTypes.txt item count: 23 item size: 1
'Attack Ship':
Data\DefaultStrategies.txt item count: 10 item size: 49
'Optimal Firing Range':
Data\Demeanors.txt item count: 8 item size: 1

Data\EmperorNames.txt item count: 26 item size: 1

Data\EmperorTitles.txt item count: 27 item size: 1

Data\EmpireTypes.txt item count: 14 item size: 1

Data\Events.txt item count: 17 item size: 10

Data\Facility.txt item count: 149 item size: 18
'Mineral Miner Facility I': Large scale planet processor which mines minerals fr
om the deepest layers.

Data\Formations.txt item count: 10 item size: 69
'Arrowhead': Formation with the leader at point position and all other ships ali
gned in a "V" shape behind him.

Data\Happiness.txt item count: 3 item size: 42
'Peaceful': Populations respond well to good events such as ships being construc
ted, colonies being created, Partnership treaties, etc. [ ... ]

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

Well, what I was thinking was going with something similar to the mods that exist for games like Unreal Tournament, Quake(s), etc. Those mods all change the code of the programs but do so using a patch system. You can't do squat with the mod patch without the game itself. The patch simply alters the game code, but doesn't contain any actual executable code. However, because those games support mods, they have options within them that allow someone to play with the default code or to "activate" a mod. SEIV doesn't have this feature. The mod feature that it does support is limited to the configurable data files only (through the use of seperate folders), and not actual game code. If we were to do something like this, we would need to give the mod a function that allows players to quickly and easily turn it on or off, allowing someone to play using the default SEIV code or the Starscape code as they wish.

The FTL map seems interesting, but there are some major problems I can think of in using it.

The first one, and probably the biggest is that it would take far too long to create a new map for each game, unless you can change the way the editor works to automatically generate random maps with empty systems in every square.

The second problem is that I've heard that putting too many systems in a map will cause the game/editor to crash.

If these problems could be worked out, I might consider this idea.

As a side note, I've expressed my plans to the Starscape players community and already two of them (that I know of) have gone out and bought SEIV Gold because of it.

[ June 09, 2002, 22:13: Message edited by: Shadowstar ]

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sounds very interesting. I look forward to seeing it.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's pretty interesting about the Quake/Unreal Tournament Mods. I didn't know such a thing was possible. I did know that companies could pay to license the engine itself to create new games. I think I read that it cost about a million bucks to license the Quake engine vs. about half that for the Unreal engine. I'm not sure if each company also demands a share of the sales percentages as well.

Hmm... I wonder if I can create an analogy. In a Quake III mod, you could change any of the graphics or sounds and probably tweak different parameters. But I wonder if you could code it so that there was such a thing as ghosts that could walk through walls? And, could you create creatures, such as ghosts, that can only be harmed by magical weapons. Well, maybe you could on that Last one. I think it might let you give limited immunity to certain weapon types. But I don't know that it would let you have a player character play as a ghost with the ability to materialize and dematerialize, would it? That might be something that we think is really cool but that they didn't code into the game.

I hope that is almost an adequate analogy to explain the difficulty of modding SE4 to do what you want. Your idea is incredibly cool--I think I played Starflight I & II? I know I played Star Control I, II and III.

Well, anyways, cool idea but just not possible even if you had a team of programmers available. It would require enough work that you'd be better of writing your own game.

Of course, if you ever get access to the source code for a game like Star Control II, drop me a line. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

[quote]Originally posted by raynor:

Quote:

Hmm... I wonder if I can create an analogy. In a Quake III mod, you could change any of the graphics or sounds and probably tweak different parameters. But I wonder if you could code it so that there was such a thing as ghosts that could walk through walls? And, could you create creatures, such as ghosts, that can only be harmed by magical weapons. Well, maybe you could on that Last one. I think it might let you give limited immunity to certain weapon types. But I don't know that it would let you have a player character play as a ghost with the ability to materialize and dematerialize, would it? That might be something that we think is really cool but that they didn't code into the game.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, there are a number of mods in a number of games (Unreal Tournament for one) that do very similar things to what you have described above. There is a mod recently released for UT called Unreal 4-Ever Fortress. Basically an upgrade of the previously released U4E but with modifications to facilitate a more "team fortress" style game. There are something like 15 different classes, and I think it's compatible with the previous U4E's model-based classes, so you almost get a race/class combo type deal when setting up your character. One of the classes is a wizard which has a ton of spells to choose from. I think there is some kind of astral projection spell that allows a wizard to "project" themselves. Thier body stays where it is (meaning you need to stay somewhere safe or you get fragged six ways from sunday), but your astral self can float around, go through walls, be transparent, and I think even attack people. The astral self cant carry the flag though I dont think and the spell is a high level spell so it takes a while to earn it. There are other features ranging from new weapons (including a few that can shoot through walls), and one wizard spell that causes lava pools to form in your footsteps. U4E is almost a completely different game, but it behaves just like any other mod for UT (and there are some even more bizarre mods out there). U4EF also installs U4E Gauntlet, which enables all of the monsters from the original Unreal in UT. They spawn from randomly placed gates throughout any level and the players must work together to kill them all and destroy all the gates, and then kill some bosses to win the level. Most of this stuff is so different from the standard UT game experience that it really qualifies as a new game. However, you can't play U4E without UT, and U4E is a completely free download.

UT is a great example of a game which has been modded so completely that, once you own UT, you can essentially indefinately extend its replayability by creating or downloading free mods done by fans across the internet. This has the obvious beneficial effect of increasing UT's sales. The more mods the fans develop, the more people will want to buy UT.

Now, why couldn't something like that be possible with SEIV? All I want is hyperspace. heh, heh.

The project is "Starscape" not "Starflight", however, if you are interested in Starflight, I also happen to be the lead sound coordinator for the official Starflight 3 Project. SF3 will be a continuation, picking up 5 years after SF2 ended. The Spemin have been beaten and put in thier place (but for how long?!), the Gazurtoid war continues with no end in sight, and Interstel and old Arth have seen the rise of The New Empire.

Both the Leghk sector and the Earth sector will be in this game, plus a top-secret new sector. Technology has been updated, and new weapons will be available for the players to use. The project aims to update Starflight for modern computers. As the sound coordinator, it is my job to ensure that the game's sound effects are comparable to modern games. I think I have done my job quite well. It's not due for release for a while, and development's been a bit slow lately, but the project has been running for 5/6 years now and we are nearing the end. Recently we've been able to start releasing internal alpha builds for testing, but we are adding new content with each release.

If you want more information on Starflight 3, visit the website at: http://www.starflight3.net/

Join the forums if you want, and talk to the ever so zany Starflight 3 fan community (but be warned - these people are weird!)... or join in one of the long-running story threads in the Nebula Lounge.

Boy, I would make a good salesman.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

Compared to most of the games out there, Space Empires IV is extremely moddable--especially when you compare it to other space conquest games. But from what you've told me about Unreal, I don't think Space Empires IV is quite as moddable.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

Please remember, however, that the makers of Unreal make money off people using their game engine to create new games. They have a HUGE staff in comparison to Malfador's -&gt;ONE&lt;- programmer and can expend essentially infinite time &lt;in comparison&gt; to make Unreal expandable in the ways you described.

That's right. Malfador Machinations is just one guy working on this game outside the normal business hours of his other job. Wow! I would truly enjoy meeting Aaron Hall. He must be one heck of guy to accomplish so much. I'm extremely happy with what we've got so far.

I really, really, really, &lt;infinite&gt; wish that space conquest games such as Space Empires IV were as popular as first person shooters such as Quake and Unreal. Yep, I'd definitely like to see Aaron in a Ferrari.

But, even more, it would be nice if there were a team of folks 1/10th as talented as Aaron Hall making the game moddable enough to make your Starscape mode easy.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

Sure, UT is far more moddable than SE4, but you would have to a pretty good programmer to accomplish even a small mod for UT, while almost everyone who can play SE4 can mod it.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This exact problem was what inspired my Hypermaze mod. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The limit is 255 systems. I didn't change the maximum number for a large quadrant from the default in Hypermaze, because I've yet to feel limited by the standard 100 or less.

BTW, I did some more research on UCITA; it's only been ratified in Maryland and Virginia so far, which is quite a bit fewer states than I thought had adopted it.

[ June 10, 2002, 19:46: Message edited by: capnq ]

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

That all sounds great, but it doesn't apply to SEIV really. The question is would Malfador/Shrapnel allow such a thing to be done the way the authors of UT did. I am not saying they wouldn't, but you shouldn't assume they would.

You should contact them and find out. Email Malfador, and send a private message to Richard on this forum. They are the only ones really who's "opinion" about whether or not you can do this matters.

If you have permission, and source code, you will find your search for qualified programmers for your project much easier.

Geoschmo

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

I haven't read this entire thread, however...

If you talking about a exec patch that allows you to do certain things then I don't see where there would be a problem with it.

Reverse engineering the code is something entirely different.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

I sent an email to MM and he says pretty much what I'm trying to do with SEIV isn't going to be possible, but he also told me to "wait for SE5"...

I didn't even know there were plans for an SE5 (though I suppose it makes sense). The reply indicates that SE5 will have all the features I am looking for, so I'm content with waiting.

However, if someone CAN find a legal, ethical method of changing the current game code to allow what I want to do, please let me know.

If possible, I would definately like to see if I can put together an entire team to develop Starscape. I've thought about doing it as its own game (actually that's my ultimate goal), but because programming and me do not mix at all, I haven't been able to do that on my own. Also, at this point, I can't afford to hire a development team, so until I can start making gobs more money I'm sorta stuck with modding other games and using voluntary fan programmers. Maybe if I build up a big enough fanbase I won't need to worry about hiring a team...

The Starflight 3 project is like that, but it's a non-profit project (we will release the game as freeware).

Starscape website:
http://starscape.50megs.com

I should have posted the above link earlier I suppose. I am the only one who updates and edits the site, but it's been around for 2 years so theres alot of information accumulated all over the place. The comms archive contains a record of public in-game Messages every turn for each sector currently running, and is the best source of raw history for the game. The archives are in the Galactic Museum (I think)... The timeline is also a good source of history but it doesnt get updated very often and only goes back a few hundred years (Starscape has been actively running for almost 700 years of game time, 3 years of real time). Like real history, the game's history was recorded in several different ways (and sometimes inaccurately due to different points of view), and stored in various places and formats. This wasn't intentional, it's just the way things went as the site basically had to survive 4 seperate complete HD crashes, losses of data, and massive site reorganizations (most of the worst of which was earlier in the game's development). Over time, as the site and game evolved, things became more efficient, so there is more detailed history in the present than in the past. Very little actual history remains documenting the first games and the beginning of the Starscape universe (which was called Reach for the Stars then - I had to change the name when someone developed another game called Reach for the Stars and confusion ensued - course now it turns out that "Starscape" is the name of a newly developed RPG that mixes the Stargate SG-1 universe and the Farscape universe - which have nothing to do with my game - grr...).

Anyway, you get the idea. There is music on every page of the site (some people hate that) - I may remove alot of it later on... I mostly did it for dramatic effect but Im thinking I overdid it now so it will probably be mostly removed in the next update or so.

Visit the site and find out what all the hubbub in this thread is about... Might as well as Starscape will have to wait until SE5 before it can make it to this community.

Re: Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is going to be extremely, extremely difficult to modify the existing game code. Without access to the Object Pascal (I believe) source code, you are left with disassembling the executable into assembly language. There are lots of people who can write programs in third and fourth generation Languages such as Pascal, C/C++, Java etc. The number grows much smaller when you talk about people of Aaron's caliber. The number grows smaller still, when you talk about the number of people who have the ability to disassemble a working program and try to insert in their own code to do various things.

Instead, I would suggest taking Baron Munchausen's excellent advice and look out on SourceForge.Net for an OpenSource effort to create a 4X game set in space. I just did a quick search and found one that looked promising.

Universe

A multiplayer turn based space strategy game similar to Masters of Orion. Written in Java, we are striving for a platform independent game. GPL'd source allows anyone to play for free!