Scientific Questions
 

several questions on several components in the game which i am just curious to know the meaning of:

*Solar Sail: i've met the thing in several other places and curious how does it work
*Meson BLaster: what *mesons* are?
*Phased Polaron and Phased Shields - no idea what these are
*Why null-space skips anything?

Just i know there are people here much older than am i (16) and i think that those people just might know how to explain to me what those things are

Re: Scientific Questions
 

I've always thought that Aaron got his ideas of Null space and Phased Polarons from Trek...

But Solar sails I think I can answer.

The Sun creates Solar winds; a path of ions (Methinks) that travel at high speed and keeps hitting our planet's magnetic sphear.

Solar sails are supposedley knit very closely that it catches the solar winds, and since the sail is made of a very thin substance, it can be propelled by the Solar winds.

A russian team funded by a company tried to launch a solar sail craft, but failed twice.

Edit: Mesons:

"All particles that participate in the forces that hold nucleons together in atomic nuclei."

Can't answer more than that; Wish I took physics.

[ June 09, 2002, 21:25: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Re: Scientific Questions
 

Thanks for the sails.
Mesons? I also didnt take physics and now i dont know any much about that.

As for trek stuff it still should have semi-scientific explanation. so im curious (yes right, just a little too much)

Re: Scientific Questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Photons have momentum (although no mass). So when photons hit something, they impart their momemtum to it and push it along. Of course, they don't have much momentum, so they don't push things very hard. Roughly, a solar sail would be about the size of a small country would be needed to propel a spaceship, and acceleration would be agonizingly slow. On the plus side, solar sails (in theory) could get ships up to a significant percentage of lightspeed (like, 50% say)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Short answer: Mesons are sub-atomic particles (i.e. smaller than an atom, in fact, smaller than electrons, neutrons and protons). Long answer: study physics a lot, then study it a lot more.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think these are just made up. Polarons might be real, but as always google comes to the rescue. A google search for +meson +subatomic comes up with a whole bunch of useful results. A search for +polaron +subatomic comes up with (mostly) episode synopses for Star Trek Voyager.

I suppose, in theory, the idea is that regular shields have a natural polarization (i.e. they admit electromagnetic radiation which has its components oriented in a certain direction). Phased polaron beams would (presumably) oscillate in this direction, and pass right though. Phased shields would stop this.

The important thing to remember is that most of it is not scientifically accurate (like too much science fiction (See also: Star Trek Voyager)). If it inspires you to actually learn a little about science, then it has done its job. Just don't get discouraged when the actual science isn't so immediately fascinating http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Scientific Questions
 

IIRC photons have a very small mass and a very high momentum. With a larger sail (not THAT big, several hundred meters) you can gain very high speed over time because of the constant pressure applied by the light. However, it would be very hard to navigate with such a sail as you can only sail with the photons (i.e. away from the nearby sun) and have no force (like friction) to "cruise" lake a real ship can in water.

Re: Scientific Questions
 

Isn't it funny how you can use solar sails to fly INTO the sun in SE4? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Scientific Questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If I remember my physics correctly light both has mass, and acts as it has no mass at the same time. For instance no mass can travel at the speed of light (according to E=MC2), but it still has mass in other calculations... i am tired and know i am rambling now though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I know I've learnt about Mesons, but I can't for the life of me remember anything about them... My favourite subatomics have always been Gravitons (though I still don't think they have proven they exist, am I wrong?)

The latest I think heard about solar sails is that there is a new deep space probe that NASA are developing that will use a solar sail, I think they have successfully tested the technology... but it could be sleep-deprivation combined with too many Star Trek episodes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

DISCLAIMER: Star Trek used as an example because it was mentioned earlier, truth be told I prefer B5 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

--
AeoN2
--
Maugham's Thought:
Only a mediocre person is always at his best.

Re: Scientific Questions
 

Photons *may* have an infinitesimally small mass, but it could also be zero (it's a topic of current physics research). The problem is that photons travel at the speed of light (by definition) and that as something approaches the speed of light its mass increases by a factor of

gamma = 1/(sqrt(1-v^2/c^2))
(where c is the speed of light and v is the object's speed)

which means that an object with mass should never be able to reach the speed of light, because it would have infinite mass and require infinite energy to accelerate further.

They have a momentum that is disproportionately high for their mass, but it isn't extremely high. If the photon momentum was too high, sunlight would knock you over http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As far as the required size of the sail, you have to bear in mind that the further that you get from the star (or other source of light) the less dense the photons are.

If we take the output of photons to be constant, then the same amount of photons is spread over a spherical shell at a distance R from the sun. The area of this shell is A=4/3*Pi*R^3. A sail of area B captures B/A of the total photons emitted by the star. At double that distance from the star, the area of the shell is A2 = 4/3 * Pi * (2R)^3 = 8*4/3*Pi*R^3 = 8*A. So the same sized sail now captures only B/(8*A) of the total photons (because they are less dense). At double the distance, the sail is 1/8 as effective, and so on. So it should be big if it is to maintain effectiveness for the whole voyage.

Re: Scientific Questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I seem to remember a theory that may make it possible for information (not matter) to travel faster than light. It had something to do with to particles that split in opposite directions both travelling at the speed of light, but when the first got to its destination, it would always behave in the opposite way from its twin, so it could somehow be used to transmit information at the speed of 2C (and I really need that speedboost for my next computer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

--
AeoN2
--
Black holes are where God is divided by zero.

Re: Scientific Questions
 

[quote]Originally posted by AeoN2:

Quote:

Originally posted by Batman: I seem to remember a theory that may make it possible for information (not matter) to travel faster than light.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're talking about the EPR paradox (stands for Einstein-Podolsky(sp?)-Rosen).

Sometimes when a pair of particles are created, they have properties that depend upon one another. For example, spin is conserved, so if a particle with zero spin decomposes and sends two smaller particles off in opposite directions, the total spin of the situation still has to be zero. Therefore, one particle has spin "up" and the other has spin "down". From a quantum mechanical perspective, each of the two particles (let's call them left and right) has an equal chance of being the up particle. Now if I know a particle decomposed in this manner say, a light year away, and the left particle comes towards me and the right particle moves away, then they are both in a 'superposition' of the spin up and spin down states. It isn't until I measure or observe 'left' that it collapses into one of the two states (up or down).

Now, the paradox comes from the fact that the instant I observe left, right must also become fixed into the opposite state that I observe. So, supposedly, it must have "heard" what state left was in. Since this happens instantaenously, the information is transmitted from one particle to the other an infinite velocity.

Its worth noting that this scenario was put forward by Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen as a reason that quantum mechanics is nonsense.

This might not be 100% accurate, I'd have to get home and check some of my textbooks. Even if it is accurate, it probably isn't very well explained. Go to google +epr +paradox -"Star Trek Voyager" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Scientific Questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: Scientific Questions
 

I stand corrected. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Scientific Questions
 

Taz tiptoes in...
Listens to these concepts - and head starts to hurt!
Taz barely manages to stagger out, holding hands to ears...

Re: Scientific Questions
 

For those talking about the mass of a photon: photons have properties of having mass, but only due to the fact that it is energy. If you look up the mass of other particles, such as an electron, it will give you a rest mass, meaning the particle's mass when it isn't moving anywhere. A photon's rest mass doesn't exist because it is just energy. The properties of having mass, such as momentum, come from the relationship between mass and energy.

Mesons, I know they're a class of subatomic particles, and that's about it. I think there are three types they've identified, but I only went over that stuff briefly. I'd just say a Meson BLaster would be kinda like a laser, and kinda like a lightning bolt, but not really like either of them :Þ

Phased stuff, that's dealing with waves traveling in a certain way, but the rest of it smells Trekkie.

Null-Space would skip anything because of it's nature. If you have vacuum, it is 'nothing' to us because of the lack of matter. But there is still space there, volume, energy, "the fabric of space-time" and all that good stuff. Null-Space would be absolute nothingness. No energy, no volume, nothing can exist there. So, the basic effect is there is a big battering ram of nothingness, and even a mass as dense as a black hole can't stop it. To make the Null-Space damage more "realistic", it would take a percentage damage off everything. eg. A ship has a damage resistance of 1500kT, plus 200kT armour, and 1000 shields; a Null-Space rated at 5% would take off 50 shields, 10kT armour, 75kT damage resistance. All the energy and mass are just pushed away, because nothing can go in Null-Space. That was probably confusing, but oh well.

Re: Scientific Questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually it made a lot of sense to me, and I finally understood what the null-space weapons were (not that I had given it that much thought before) ... Actually in the anime "Lost Universe" there is a weapon which reminds me of this effect (other that instead of nothingness, it kind of leads to a dimension of nothingness. It was called a D-brave gun if I remember correctly (not that it matters), and it looked real cool shooting small spheres that hit the ship and grew to large spheres of nothingness, then dissapearing, the part of the ship where they were, also gone.

I thought null-space weapons were cool in SE4 from before, no I think they are even cooler http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

--
AeoN2
--
Cannot find reality.sys, Universe halted.

Re: Scientific Questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If your null-space "projectile" has a very small radius in normal space, it could poke a very small hole in your shield/armor, and then destroy a small number of internal components completely.

The outer hull should be able to take quite a few holes before you get a serious unpatchable atmosphere leak, but people, electronics and precision machinery all have very low tolerances for having holes punched through them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Scientific Questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's the volume of a sphere. The surface area is A=4*Pi*R^2. At double the distance, the sail is 1/4 as effective. (Yeah, I know, but I'm a member of the pick-a-nit-a-day club). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Scientific Questions
 

You're absolutely right.

I can't believe I screwed that up. That'll teach me to try and show off on the Boards. I'm surprised is wasn't caught sooner http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Scientific Questions
 

hey thanks, all the stuff makes a lot of sense.
Meson BLasters shoot... balls of sub-atomic particles right?

As for phased stuff, i recall my older theory - it was that the phased weapons shoot multiple shots at once with different phasing, polar and so on stuff so finaly they simply pass the shields that cannot stand the multiple different attacks. Is that any right?

Will: thanks for explaining the NullSpace to me. Had a similar idea but you shaped it out realy nice.
So practically its a generator of nothingness just anywhere i wish (say - the command center of the ship) right?

Re: Scientific Questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It doesn't work the same way as sailboat tacking against the wind, but a solar sail can change your distance from the sun in either direction.

It works because of orbital mechanics. You're orbiting the sun at a certain speed, and can angle the solar sail such that it either increases or decreases your orbital speed; the change in speed then changes the radius of your orbit.

Magnetic sails (indirect link) and related tech are even more promising.

Re: Scientific Questions
 

I think the Trek-equivalent phased shields are called "multi-phasic." I would assume, then, that normal shields would allow a certain frequency of radiation to pass through unblocked (unique to each shield's settings, of course), while multi-phasic shields constantly change the "phase," or frequency which will pass through. This makes it much less likely that the EM radiation hitting the shields will happen to be the correct frequency.

ISTR something ST where some rogue aliens in a Bird of Prey captured Visor-Boy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif and programmed his visor to broadcast back to them. Then they read the settings on the engineering display to find out the frequency of the Enterprise's shields, allowing them to bypass the shields completely. That is, until someone got smart and changed the shields and blew them out of the water. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Scientific Questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, they never clued in as to why. They just knew the shields weren't helping, and started looking for a cheap way out.

They technobabbled the BoP, causing its shields to drop, and vaped the enemy with superior firepower.

Because of the battle damage it sustained in the meantime, the Enterprise then proceeded to both blow up (stardrive section) and crash land (saucer) on the planet surface.

Then the planet got destroyed as the sun went nova, adding that extra bit of overkill. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 11, 2002, 03:58: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Scientific Questions
 

Star Trek: Generations

[ June 11, 2002, 04:40: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Scientific Questions
 

I'll be in Arizona from July 6-13 for a conference.

Guess I'll need to bring my multi-phasic sunscreen and null-space airconditioning unit.

Re: Scientific Questions
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You obviously don't live in Arizona. Come July and August, the photons will pound you right through the pavement. Even now it's getting rough. Saturday, it hit 112F. I walked outside and got an inch shorter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif