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Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Has anyone ever thought of modding a missile class of units? Basically it would involve making a, say 5kT, mini drone, calling it a missile, and making a component that can launch 0 missiles per game turn and 1 missile per combat turn and calling it a missile tube. The missiles could be stored in an armoured cargo bay (i.e. magazine). The missile tubes should be really small, 1-5kT maybe, 10 at the max. There would be missile components, different warheads, ECM etc.
This would necessitate the construction of ammunition back at a spaceyard, and transporting it up to the front. Also, missile ships could be varied: they could shoot a couple of missiles a round for a longer time, or throw really heavy broadsides for a short time. This might make missile ships more able to penetrate tight PDC. This might be a useful idea for anyone making an Honor Harrington mod, or a Starfire mod. |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Yup. It's also the only way to make "laser head" missiles ala HH.
Only bad part is you can't change the ROF below 1 missile per tube per turn. Phoenix-D |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
You mean you can't make components that can only launch during combat, and not launch from the map?
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Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Oh, you can do that. Talking about in comat.. you can't get one missile fired every three turns for example.
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Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
With a limited supply of missiles this is less unbalancing than you might think. You have to explicitly build the missiles, load them on a warship or a transport that will get them to a warship, then reach your enemy to launch them. Once you have launched however many you had, your missile space is useless cargo for the remainder of combat.
I think the ability to launch them on the strategic map should be preserved, btw. [ June 12, 2002, 21:07: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Ok, that might be a minor thing. Could lower the damage by a factor of 3 to compensate I suppose.
Another problem would be the inability to 'choose' the type of warhead fired in a given volley of missiles. It would, however, give missiles enough range to cover the entire tactical combat area, which makes for nice 'David-Weber' style long distance missile duels. |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
What concerns me about the ability to launch from the map is that you can launch a bunch of missiles, and not immediately give them targets (like with drones). Either way, wouldn't planets still be able to launch them from the map?
However, I guess they burn supply either way, so it could be alright. I just like the idea because of the extra overhead involved in keeping a fleet supplied with ammo as well as fuel. |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Hey now, I like this idea! This has some very interesting possibilities.
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Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Yeah, I'm going to play around with this. I haven't modded anything before so it may take a little while, probably this weekend.
The thing will be balancing cargo requirements. A single ship would burn through up to 30 x (#tubes) per combat!! At 5kT per missile that's 150kT/Tube. Hmm, maybe I'd better make them 1kT and put a bunch of 0 mass, one-per-missile components in the missile tech tree. I will probably leave torpedoes alone for the moment. |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
So what sort of cost do you think should be involved here. Should a missle cost less/more/the same as a mine for example?
Thankfully with Se4 cargo units there is no relationship between cargo capacity and size of the caro component. You can hold 150KT worth of missles and only take up 10Kt of space on the ship if you want. So the limiting factor of the missle bodies would be how many components to you allow to fit on it. Jeez, not just ECM, you could have missles with shields. And then different types of PDC that skip normal shields. A new tech race! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And this would probably allow missles already launched to find new targets if the initial one is destroyed. I haven't used Drones enough in combat to know that for sure. Time to do some testing... One thing though. Most standard weapons can target drones and not seekers. You would I guess want to change these weapons so they cannot target drones? Geoschmo [ June 12, 2002, 21:47: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
I'd say that a given planet should really be able to churn out missiles. As far as the rate relative to mines, that's a little tough. If a single ship can fire hundreds per combat, then I guess they should be really cheap to build.
If that's the case, PDC would need to be smaller, or perhaps let standard weapons target missiles, otherwise missiles would really overwhelm PDC (just with sheer numbers) |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
The other thing with cargo space (especially with changing the size-capacity ratio) is the chance that changing it will screw up balance for carriers etc.
I am thinking about some special missile types. Until I get better names, I'll 'borrow' David Weber's names. 1) AFHAWK:anti fighter missile. Should be easy to do. 2) SBMHAWK:warp-capable missiles (might need to model them as ships, which, if I recall, means they can't be cargo. Catch-22) 3) AMBAM. Anti-mine missiles (in the books they were described as low strength missiles with a large bLast radius, just enough to set off mines) |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Well, as a starting point, you could just try to make it equivalent to the exsisting missles, and then tweak it from there as you play test it.
A CSM I take 50 KT, shoots 10 missles in a complete round of combat, and costs 400 minerals and 80 rads. So a good starting point I guess would be to make the magazine take up 50KT of space and hold 10 missles. And make the total cost of the magazine and ten missles be the same as an exsisting CSM I. Of course then a micro missle ship would be a one combat weapon and a standard CSM can fight in combat after combat until it's out of supply. But you can tweak these numbers to balance that out. The extended range of the miscro drones alone gives them a big advantage over standard CSM's I think. Geoschmo |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Man, I like this idea! (wish it had come up while I was creating the DN2 mod...)
What about leaving the missles as being targeted as drones but give them a really high defensive bonus (like fighters). That way, PDC's would still be your primary defense against missles but other weapons could still have a chance at hitting them. |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
There are limitations to this approach. The biggest problem is that you cannot choose the target of a drone.
You can't target a particular type of ship or even nearer/further, larger/smaller, or whatever else on the fly in combat. Drones will follow their pre-set strategy no matter what. Drones might automatically choose to attack a ship that you want to capture by boarding. Even anti-ship drones might turn on a planet if there are no ships left. What if you want to capture that planet? Even if the anti-ship drones do less damage than anti-planet drones they could do enough damage on a small planet to destroy it before you can capture it. The automatic re-targetting can be a disadvantage in all of the above situations, too. [ June 12, 2002, 22:09: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
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Geoschmo |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Could these mini-drones possibly be a good idea to use instead of the "point defense missiles" idea that someone came up with? The trouble was that with missiles that targets seekers that all missiles would fire at the same target since it wasn't "destroyed" yet since the missiles don't move immediately...
But if the drones can target missiles they could work like pd-drones... probably wouldn't be worth it unless pd guns were removed in the mod though... -- AeoN2 -- Law of Selective Gravity: An object will fall so as to do the most damage. |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
how about including a small space yard component, so you can build to missiles on your ship?
about 100kt, produces on avg 1-3 missiles/turn |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
That is certainly a possibility. The problem is there is no convienent way to only allow the constructor to build missles, they could build fighters, mines, or even ships given enough time.
I think that in a mod with these microdrones though it would be common practice to send a space yard ship with the battle fleet so you don't have to keep going back for more missles. Geo |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Remember that if you mod 'micro' drones you won't be able to use standard size drones anymore. There's no way the AI can keep the two classes of components straight in design, or keep the different sizes straight in combat. It's one or the other.
We've been asking for a 'units only' space yard for some time. If MM could just add a setting to restrict the size of vehicle that a space yard can build you could mod one easily enough. Or some way to set the 'flags' that mark a planet-only space yard as different from a space yard facility or a space yard component [ June 13, 2002, 21:51: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
I read all about minidrones, missiles, etc. and I just remember how much I enjoy preparing my squadron before a battle when I play XCOM; do you remember?, armor, ammunition, weapons, etc.
that was very funny, it's micromanagement, all we love micromanagement, but how much it's enough? |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
For starters, this would be great!! The design possiblities and introduction of resource management are a great great great idea!
You could make the "missiles" have all sorts of different modifiable attributes, like different speeds, different ranges, etc. by introducing different components. Combat only engines (ie various levels of afterburners) would keep the missiles from zooming through wormholes and across sectors. Higher speed engines/aftrerburners could use more supplies, giving a shorter range for example. Later technologies could allow for improved engines/afterburners and eventually very expensive (and gas guzzling?) engines that would have normal movement, letting missiles move across systems and through worm holes. This would allow a player to essentially enter combat without entering combat! Now missile cruisers have an entirely different value http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif (I'm a missile freak, but I'm always disheartened by the strength of my enemy's PD weaponry. In the same breath, I wouldn't want missiles to become too strong). Some players will design missiles with extra supply storage to reach across the entire combat screen, while others will let loose a volley of short range, high velocity missiles, while others will push slower, high yield "turtle missiles" out of the bomb-bay doors. Some will opt for the expensive missiles with normal movement Ratings, while others will go for the cheapest drives possible. As far as the "fire em all at once" problem, i) can't you limit the number of drones launched from a "drone bay"? (I don't know, cause I don't have gold... yet) ii) if you can launch a swack of missiles (but not all) in one shot, I figure that's okay. The player will now have to deeply consider whether or not their ships will survive combat. If not, fire em all! If so, then they'll need to apply restraint. iii) as to missiles taking out their primary target, and the extras going after secondary targets... I guess everyone will just have to be careful as to how many they drop over the side http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Edit: oh, maybe you could make components that can fire only at certain targets. This way, you could design a missile that only attacks ships. Now you won't harpoon that planet by mistake. Sort of a hardcoded smart missile if you will. My Last comment for the night. Missiles cannot attack satellites right now. To keep this important game balance, I think it would be important to only design weapons that can attack ships/bases/planets for these new missile types. Ciao all Good night [ June 14, 2002, 07:42: Message edited by: jimbob ] |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Hi again,
I lied. Here are some more of my blatherings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif As to the use of micro vs. macro drones. I think (tho my brain is tired, so it's efficiency is pretty low right now) that careful planning can distinguish between the two. i) macro drone components will be kept off the microdrones becaues the components for macro drones are probably going to be too large to fit on the micro drones/missiles. ii) make the micro drone components undesirable for macro drones by introducing extreme limitations on the micro components. ie. cannot fire on satellites, cannot have more than one of the component (or two, three etc. with the next patch), undesirably short weapons firing ranges on micro components, other ideas??? iii) is it possible to help the AI out by pre-programing their design choices and weapon preferences? Just make the micro components a less prefered item by giving them lower roman numerals? [ June 14, 2002, 07:44: Message edited by: jimbob ] |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
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the damn drones like to RAM before firing their weapons...and if I set it so they fire before they ram, they won't ram..... I have been trying to get a FA*($@&$&) drone to attack using "attacks engines only" and it does jack squat! EDIT: Here is what I have been using: ***************** Name := Small Missile Short Name := Small Missile Description := Small Multi-Purpose Missile. Code := SM Primary Bitmap Name := Drone Alternate Bitmap Name := Drone Vehicle Type := Drone Tonnage := 5 Cost Minerals := 100 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 50 Engines Per Move := 1 Number of Tech Req := 1 Tech Area Req 1 := Missiles Tech Level Req 1 := 1 Number of Abilities := 2 Ability 1 Type := Extra Movement Generation Ability 1 Descr := Small size and special materials increases speed of drone by 3. Ability 1 Val 1 := 3 Ability 1 Val 2 := 999 Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes missile 50% harder to hit in combat. Ability 2 Val 1 := 50 Ability 2 Val 2 := 0 Requirement Must Have Bridge := False Requirement Can Have Aux Con := False Requirement Min Life Support := 0 Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 0 Requirement Uses Engines := True Requirement Max Engines := 15 Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0 Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0 Requirement Pct Cargo := 0 ********************* Name := Ionic Pulse Warhead V Description := Warhead that disables enemy ship engines. Pic Num := 670 Tonnage Space Taken := 2 Tonnage Structure := 2 Cost Minerals := 350 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 350 Vehicle Type := Drone Supply Amount Used := 5 Restrictions := None General Group := Weapons Family := 2012 Roman Numeral := 5 Custom Group := 0 Number of Tech Req := 1 Tech Area Req 1 := Engine Overloading Weapons Tech Level Req 1 := 10 Number of Abilities := 1 Ability 1 Type := Component Destroyed On Use Ability 1 Descr := BOOM Ability 1 Val 1 := 0 Ability 1 Val 2 := 0 Weapon Type := Warhead Weapon Target := Ships Weapon Damage At Rng := 100 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Weapon Damage Type := Only Engines Weapon Reload Rate := 2 Weapon Display Type := Torp Weapon Display := 10 Weapon Modifier := 0 Weapon Sound := tpc.wav Weapon Family := 12 ********************* Name := Neutron Warhead V Description := Warhead which releases high intensity neutron radiation killing a planet's population. Pic Num := 666 Tonnage Space Taken := 2 Tonnage Structure := 2 Cost Minerals := 500 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 150 Vehicle Type := Drone Supply Amount Used := 5 Restrictions := None General Group := Weapons Family := 2014 Roman Numeral := 5 Custom Group := 0 Number of Tech Req := 1 Tech Area Req 1 := Planetary Weapons Tech Level Req 1 := 10 Number of Abilities := 0 Weapon Type := Warhead Weapon Target := Planets Weapon Damage At Rng := 200 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Weapon Damage Type := Only Planet Population Weapon Reload Rate := 2 Weapon Display Type := Torp Weapon Display := 19 Weapon Modifier := 0 Weapon Sound := neutbomb.wav Weapon Family := 14 ****************** The Neutron warhead.....I try making 6 of them fit on a large missile....over 1,200 pts worth of NEUTRON goodness, and when it attacks/rams a planet in the simulator, it only kills 1m people..... [ June 14, 2002, 08:18: Message edited by: MKSheppard ] |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Just reading this topic gave me all kinds of ideas.
Why stop at making missiles into units? What about making a kind of troop thats designed for space combat? You could make Space Marines (or Space Troop): they behave like fighters and are designed to carry a boarding parties unit and possibly some other components. Very cheap and easy to destroy, but because they behave like fighters, they can be launched and carried on ships that otherwise wouldn't have boarding parties. Also, they could travel on thier own (using a jetpack - perhaps make different grades of jetpack available by researching so you could make faster marines), saving a ship from having to get dangerously close to its target. Send them in behind a wave of missiles designed to draw enemy point defenses so they dont get killed or just deploy them in large numbers. Hmm... You could even have Space Marines to fight other Space Marines... Hmm... The only problem I can see with that is that when you grouped Space Marines (if you did it like fighters) you could end up having alot of boarding parties to use against an enemy ship, which could lead to balance issues. Perhaps doing something similar to the Smaller Weapons would work here. Have a miniaturized Version of the Boarding Parties component designed for the Space Marine to use. It would be less effective, but designed to work in large numbers. After all, you wouldn't want to send a single marine to capture an enemy ship! You'd want to have a team of marines, or maybe several teams of marines. Course this could lead to the development of Special Ops forces that you could deploy in space too. Special Ops would have some kind of cloaking or ecm that would make it harder for the enemy to see them in combat, but they would have much less boarding party value. They would be able to carry special equipment for sabotaging or subverting enemy ships... Hmm this could be a fun idea to explore. |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Got it to work.....here's a workaorund.....
it attacks, causing proper damage with its special attack skill (neutron) and then kamikazis into target... Name := Neutron Warhead V Description := Warhead which releases high intensity neutron radiation killing a planet's population. Pic Num := 666 Tonnage Space Taken := 2 Tonnage Structure := 2 Cost Minerals := 500 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 150 Vehicle Type := Drone Supply Amount Used := 5 Restrictions := None General Group := Weapons Family := 2014 Roman Numeral := 5 Custom Group := 0 Number of Tech Req := 1 Tech Area Req 1 := Planetary Weapons Tech Level Req 1 := 10 Number of Abilities := 0 Weapon Type := Direct Fire Weapon Target := Planets Weapon Damage At Rng := 300 200 100 50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Weapon Damage Type := Only Planet Population Weapon Reload Rate := 1 Weapon Display Type := Torp Weapon Display := 19 Weapon Modifier := 0 Weapon Sound := neutbomb.wav Weapon Family := 14 |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
The problem with mounting a ranged weapon on a drone is twofold. First, as others have pointed out it tends to rush in and ram first, so it often doesn't get to fire. Second, in order to do a reasonable amount of damage with that ONE shot it has to be given insane damage levels. MM needs to fix drones so warheads with 'special' damage types work properly. The one ranged-weapon that is a good idea on drones is PDC because fighters are an excellent counter-measure against drones. They are also fast and can be even more numerous than an attacking wave of drones.
It would also be nice if some form of 'boarding attack' was possible at range. Boarding shuttles would be most logical, and could be doable with boarding parties on a fighter hull, but a simple range attack might be just as good. Call it 'transporter' if you like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This would have to be very high tech, of course. [ June 14, 2002, 15:28: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
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by doing a "workaround" to get unique types to work properly.....I'll keep it this way until MM fixes the warhead stuff in a future patch.... just give it a 4 attack range, and it will go BLAM BLAM BLAM and then kamikazi in, which allows you to attack it successfully with your special weapon, and kill itself, completing the missile cycle... [ June 14, 2002, 19:32: Message edited by: MKSheppard ] |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
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Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
Shadowstar,
Boarding parties don't work on any kind of unit, drone, fighter, etc. They have to be on a ship. That's a hardcoded restriction. Of course, if it were changed in a future patch... Geoschmo |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
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Using "Least Damaged" as one of the targeting priorities can have interesting results, especially with swarms of drones vs. multiple opponents. |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
I have been thinking more about this idea lately.
Has anyone tried it in a mod yet? Any unexpected suprises? Major roadblocks keeping it from working? Geoschmo |
Re: Missiles as units (a.k.a microdrones)
HH mod uses it. See that thread for the major issues.
The problems are you can't target the drones manually in tactical (they attack always using their strategy), a lot of drones will actually get in each others way, you can't set a fire rate of below 1 per turn, and they will always outrange any other weapon. Phoenix-D |
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