Fleets pass each other by??
 

Has anyone else notice this annoying fleet behavior? in a multi simultaneaous game I see an enemy fleet approching. So I give my fleet attack orders and then during movement replay next turn I watch as they sail past each other often occupying the same spot. Espcially annoying one time as the planet my fleet left got glassed by the other fleet.

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This happened to me once, costing me 2 colony ships.
When I played the movement replay, my ships would move first, then the enemies. So, my ships would move into his sector, then his ships would move out (towards my colony ships). Then my ships would move into his sector, then his ships would move out. This repeated until his ships moved into my colony ship sector. There was combat which killed my colony ships. Then my attack ships again moved into his sector, and since his ships had no more orders they sat there and combat occured and I killed his ships. It was real annoying.

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

Were they both moving on the same turn-day?

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

If your fleet and his had the same speed, that is how it's supposed to happen. Don't look at the fleet positions on the screen, look at their relative speeds. It might have looked like your fleet was catching up due to turn order, but if speed was the same they were not.

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We moved at the same speed but in OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS. My attack fleet was between his fleet and my colony ships. Since we had the same speed, I naturally assumed that when I gave my ships the attack order, they would intercept him, not just fly by and then circle around and chase (and never catchup as you are saying).

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

BMan,
Is it possible that your fleet went to the point the enemy fleet was when you gave the Attack order and then turned to follow it??
If so, that makes for a very nasty "issue"

[ June 14, 2002, 20:51: Message edited by: The High Gryphin ]

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

The Gold Manual indicates that combat occurs every 5th day. If you never occupy the same square on days 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, or 30, then combat will not occur. This could easily happen if you have really fast movement rates so that move increments happen in less than 5 days (7+ movement). I have never confirmed the information in the manual however.

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No. What would happen is: my fleet would move onto the square with his fleet. Then his fleet would move off of it (and towards my colony ships). From this point on, I am chasing him. My fleet moves onto his square, then he moves off.

Someone has posted that combat occurs every 5th day and also whenever someone in the square is capable of moving. The bug is that both fleets are moving "at the same time". If they are only 1 square apart they effectively pass each other up in between the squares.

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yup this is what happend to me too. Very annoying!

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

Combat does occur when you are in the same square as the enemy and have a movement point. Question is, when do you get a movement point?
Each turn (month) has 30 days.
A ship with speed 6 would get a movement point every 5 days (30/6=5).
A ship with speed 10 would get a movement point every 3 days (30/10=3).

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So the net result of that is that if opposing fleets have the same speed combat is very difficult if they keep moving. If the fleets are moving in opposite directions and start an even number of spaces apart combat will not occur. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

Once you're aware of the problem, you can adjust the interceptors' movement orders to compensate.

For example, instead of just giving the attack order, move one square "sideways" before the attack.

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

this is as clear as mud... but important...

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, it took me a bit to get my mind around it as well, but I think I can explain it.

Alpha fleet is at point A with orders to move to point B. Beta fleet is at point B with orders to attack Alpha Fleet. Assuming both fleet have the same speed...

If Point A and B are an odd number of sectors apart, both fleets move towards each other until they both move into the same sector, at which time combat occurs.

If Points A and B are an even number of spots apart, both fleets move towards each other one sector at a time until they are in adjoining sectors. At this point they move simultaneously and cross paths because Fleet B is moving to the sector being vacated by B and B is moving into he sector being vacated by A. Since combat cannot occur between sectors, no combat occurs because they never occupied the same sector at any particular point in time. Now Alpha is past Beta and can continue moving towards spot B with Beta fleet persueing, but never quite catching up. Always staying one behind. Unless of course Beta fleet reaches point B and Alpha fleet still has movement remaining, as occured in the example given at the begining of this thread.

So if your fleets are an even number of sectors apart and you believe the enemy is attempting to get past you, by scooting one space to the side first and then giving the order to attack will allow the enemy to close the gap one space and get you to an odd number of sectors apart. Of course this assumes you are correct in the enemies direction of movement. If they are moving anyway but towards you you have only allowed them a head start in getting away.

Also note, saying they have to have movement remaining to initiate combat is not technically correct, as they could expend their Last movement point entering the sector with the enemy and combat would happen, as long as the enemy wasn't moving out of that sector at the same time. This is not always clear from watching the simultaneous turn replay as you don't actually see the ships all moving at once. You have to remember everything is broken up into phases.

Geoschmo

[ June 17, 2002, 19:11: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

When both fleets are in adjacent squares, then it works like this:

Player A, which is moving to a planet and is on top of the player list, moves first and he moves into the fleet of Player B who is intercepting fleet A. Player A has now spent his movement point.
Player B, who is below Player A on the player list, can now move. As his fleet is already in the same square as the target he wishes to intercept, he spends his movement point to attack the enemy.

I'm not totally sure if you really need a movement point to initiate combat but definitely the fleets will not swap their places hunting each other. The player who is topmost of the playerlist will move first, players below after him in order of the list. The only way you can be screwed is when you are the topmost player IMHO because then and only then your ships will move before the other players down the list will move.

[ June 17, 2002, 23:22: Message edited by: [K126]Mephisto ]

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

Mephisto may have explained the intercept problems I was having as 1st player in simultaneous move game.

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are indeed correct Mephisto. I had not accounted for player order in my tests.

If the player lower in turn is seeking to avoid combat he should be able to assuming he is at least as fast as the enemy. In the example I gave they would in fact swap places as the second player would be moving out of the sector as soon as the first player moved into it. If the places were reversed and it was player 2 seeking after player 1 then combat would indeed occur.

This makes sense when you consider what I said before about all this stuff actually occuring in phases. Combat occurs after the movement phase. Both players will do their movement phase and then if they are in the same sector after both, then combat occurs. If player 1 moves into the same sector as player two in their part of the movement phase, and player 2 is seeking after player 1, they would not need to move anywhere and that would end the movement phase.

I am quite certain about not needing available movement to initiate combat though. If you expend your Last movement point during that "day" and at the end of that day during the combat phase you are in the same sector with your target, combat will occur.

This actually gives a bit of an advantage to the players lower in order, as opposed to the old in combat advantage that went to the player higher in order. I am not sure this is something you would want to change though. Not sure how you would change it actually.

Geoschmo

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

I think your best bet there is to have your colony ships take a hike away from the intruders rather than sit around, they're less of a target that way. Then you should be able to intercept the enemy ships before they hit your colony ships.

I usually have a few ships sitting around in a front-line system that are loaded with as many engines as they'll take, plus solar sail, and basically no extra supplies. They can't go far but you can pack some extra armour and stuff in the space that would have been devoted to supply. Once you get a quantum reactor this is pretty much redundant though, since you can send those same ships to escort your planet-pounders out to enemy territory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

EDIT: Uh, I forgot to read page 1. D'oh!

[ June 18, 2002, 13:37: Message edited by: Marvin Kosh ]

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">... but I thought that if Player A did not have a treaty with Player B, Player A's fleet would try to go around Player B instead of moving into the same sector. ??

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, you are right. It was just for the ease of explanation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
If A is not moving into the occupied sector, the whole thing is even easier. A will move to another adjacent sector and B will intercept him there.

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

Given:
A moves before B.
A and B have the same number of move points.
Not considering supplies.

Question:
How does A ever intercept B, if B does not want that event to occur?

According to how it is described in the previous Posts, A can only intercept B as follows:

If B does not move.
If A knows the destination square for B (warp point/planet/etc) and A can get there first.

That just seems wrong to me.

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

"That just seems wrong to me."

How so? If you have the same speed as someone else in RL there's no way to catch them unless they slow down. Otherwise all you can do is keep the range from opening up.

The 'crossing squares' thing IS weird though.

Phoenix-D

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True enough for RL chase from the rear. But what about them vectoring at you, but off by two sectors to the left. Shouldn't your course change to meet them? Assume 4 squares apart, and both have 6 movement.

Re: Fleets pass each other by??
 

In the same game where I was in this situation and my fleet would pass by my opponent, I was also successful at intercepting sometimes. I *think* fleet B checks the square it is gonna move into *before* fleet A moves. So then fleet A moves, fleet B moves into the same square even though it was not seeking my ship (I know this because it was early game and my ship started out in a cloaking storm so the enemy ship could not have been seeking mine). All in all, it is quite confusing. I think it still comes down to: if there are an even number of squares between you, you can intercept him (assuming no sidestepping). If there are an odd number of squares between you, you will pass each other.

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