.com.unity Forums

.com.unity Forums (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/index.php)
-   Space Empires: IV & V (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20)
-   -   Proportions 2.3 nearing completion (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=6375)

PvK June 17th, 2002 11:22 AM

Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
I tried really hard to get Proportions 2.3 ready for posting tonight, but there are still some things that should be done to the AI before posting it. Once again, I've ended up piling a LOT of things into one Version. Hopefully it'll be worth the wait. Current changes list, subject to change:

Version 2.3:

----------------------
Gameplay - Facilities:
----------------------
* Added new large-scale intensive Versions of standard facilities
(mineral miners, radioactives extractors, and research centers).
There are two stages - complexes produce twice as much as a
standard facility, and megaplexes produce three times as much
as standard, but they cost considerably more than that to build,
or even to upgrade to, so there is a major trade-off between
intensive development and rapid development. This allows more
advanced development in a specific type of production, without
necessarily using massive amounts of colony world space. These
require research in Industry (and Computers, for research facs).
* Similarly, added a new tech area and facilities for Agrarian
Colonization. These are cultural facilities that are like the
existing settlement through cultural center, but are much less
industrialized and so mainly produce a lot of organic resources.
These provide a way to specialize in organic production on an
intensive scale, without necessarily having a massive planet.
* Increased ability of Psychic Intelligence Centers somewhat.
* Building Distribution Centers and Resupply Bases (instead of the
smaller Space Ports and Resupply Depots) was slowing down the AI
more than helping it, so I removed the AI hints to build these.
* Changed family of Organic Generation Facilities to separate them from
Organics Farms for upgrade and visibility purposes.
* Added new tech area "Colonial Development" which is extremely cheap
but allows more control of urban colony development for the AI and
players like Oleg who actually use the automatic "Upgrade Facilities"
command.
* 2.2 had accidentally started creating new games' homeworlds with an
extra Cultural Center in place of the Resupply Depot. Added a new
Resupply Base facility, just to add some variety while solving this
problem.
* Extended Massive Planetary Shielding to tech level 5, with nine
varieties of Massive Planetary Shield Generator, available with
different levels of research in M.P.S., Shields, Construction, and
Physics.
* Also added twelve varieties of Planetary Shield Network facilities
to the non-ancient tech tree (they require research in Shields and
Construction).
* Added facilities that combine Space Ports with Resupply Depots,
and with cities.
-----------------
Gameplay - Other:
-----------------
* Changed engine limits of medium and large drones so they can keep up
with small drones.
* Replaced previous drone launchers with new Versions that include enough
cargo space to carry one drone of their tech level, but are larger.
* Added new basic Defense Cannon available before Point Defense is
researched.
* Removed the actual storage from Space Yard components, but the
ability remains, so they can still be used on transport hulls, but
space yard bases will not automatically have cargo room.
* Added new Secondary Fire Control component, which allows multiplex
tracking 2 without Combat Support, but costs 50% more. This replaces
the 2.1 ECM IIIc component, which probably no one ever used. The
main purpose of this, however, is to ensure that the electronic
warfare components are separated into maximized and miniaturized
Versions for purposes of "show latest" and upgrades - before this,
if an empire had not researched any intervening sensor component
types, then sensors would still upgrade to miniaturized Versions.
* Removed possibility of empires starting in trinary systems, and
removed complete planets from trinary systems.
* Added Formations file from TDM mod pack. Thanks very much to Daynarr
Master Belisarius for their work and permission to include it with
this mod.
* Added short-ranged Versions of the Allegiance Subverters and Massive
ancient weapons, because their low rate-of-fire meant the tactical
AI would often waste their few shots at long range where they would
often miss.
---------
Cosmetic:
---------
* Corrected abbreviation for Large weapon platform and base mounts.
* Added durability to description of cultural facility abilities.
* Changed weapon family of Self-Defense Cannons to distinguish them
from Point-Defense Cannons.
---
AI:
---
* Got the AI to use PD Cannon instead of using PD Beams (the trick was
to list their tech requirements, so the design minister thinks they
are the most advanced ones, though the actual requirement remains the
same).
* Gave the AI a hint to build racial Organic Generators instead of
farm facilities.
* Added a bogus ability tag "Component Destroyed On Use" to Cultural
facilities smaller that Cultural Centers, for AI hints.
* Added a bogus ability tag "Planet - Change Ground Defense" to some
ECM components so AI can design ships that use efficient ECM and not
load illegal extra engines.
* Added a bogus ability tag "Ancient Ruins" to some combat sensor
components so AI can be told not to use Fire Control Centers on all
bases and weapon platforms.
* Increased threshold values for Mega Evil Empire status.
* Rebuilt Xi'Chung AI.
* Tweaked Terran AI.
* Adjusted Norak AI.
* Overhauled default AI's.
* Added Abbidon AI made for Proportions by John Sullivan.
* Added AI's made for Proportions by Oleg Fedorov for the 3rd party
ship sets Pequeninos, Nostropholo, and Soul Hunters. (These are
available in separate downloads, since the graphics files are large.)
* Adapted John's Abbidon AI for use by Cue Cappa.
* Adapted Oleg's Nostropholo AI for use by Chryslonites.
* Adapted Oleg's Pequeninos AI for use by Drushocka.
* Added hints for AI to use small ECM and Combat Sensors instead
of adding extra engines to try to improve combat modifiers.
* Changed Small Meson BLaster weapon family number to avoid mixing
up the AI (was same as Light Missile System - thanks, Oleg).

PvK

Schwarzbart June 17th, 2002 03:09 PM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Wow a nice big update! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Tnarg June 17th, 2002 10:47 PM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
PvK, not to bother you or anything, or be a pest for that matter. But when you say "tried to post tonight, does that mean, not tonight June 17, but possilby the next day, or does it mean you still could possiblly be posting it tonight.

Sorry, you've brought on X-mas in the middle of June. What can I say, those presents look pretty tempting.

Thanks

Phoenix-D June 18th, 2002 01:59 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Huh, a lot of my ideas on what Proportions should have got into there- and I've never mentioned them. Nice job http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron June 18th, 2002 02:36 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Quote:

* Added Formations file from TDM mod pack. Thanks very much to Daynarr
Master Belisarius for their work and permission to include it with
this mod.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You could use the one in the B5 Mod. I compiled a bunch of formations into one file a while back. It is like 57 KB, as opposed to 21 KB or so.

PvK June 18th, 2002 07:29 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Imperator Fyron, thanks, I expect I will take you up on that offer.

Tnarg, I mean I spent as much of the weekend as I could trying to finish everything, but there are a few remaining bits to finish up. The human side is done, but for the AI I need to wrap up a few loose ends.

PvK

PvK June 18th, 2002 07:31 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Phoenix-D, nice to hear that.

Tnarg June 18th, 2002 07:48 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Cheerio then, keep up the good work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron June 18th, 2002 08:25 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
PvK:
No problem. I didn't create any of the formations in there. I just "borrowed" them from a number of mods. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Tenryu June 19th, 2002 04:13 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Once again, Verrry nice work, PVK.

PvK June 24th, 2002 07:39 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Apologies on the delayed release of Proportions 2.3. A dear pet of mine died mostly unexpectedly yesterday, and I couldn't make myself concentrate on the AI minutiae issues that are holding it up. I will keep trying to release as soon as I can get the known AI weaknesses ironed out.

PvK

Schwarzbart June 24th, 2002 08:47 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
I know too what it means to lost a pet you love, so thake your time to come over it.
I dont think that any one will complain about the delays. Even profesional game devloper have to put back the release date of theyr games and your mod is realy a great work and the best of it you make this all for free. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PvK June 24th, 2002 09:01 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Thanks Schwarzbart!

Atrocities June 25th, 2002 05:51 PM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Sorry to hear about your loss PvK. I hope your feeling better soon.

Ed Kolis June 25th, 2002 08:58 PM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Yeah, losing a beloved pet can really screw up your day.

PvK July 1st, 2002 09:37 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Thanks for your understanding, all.

I am back on the case now, and am thinking it will be out this week some time. I might post a Version tomorrow night with still-funky AI, and then make 2.4 the "get the AI working a bit better" Version, since I'm mainly just trying to get the AI working better at this point.

PvK

Fyron July 1st, 2002 10:42 PM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
That would be a good plan. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

ZeroAdunn July 5th, 2002 11:12 PM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
So what's the word?

PvK July 6th, 2002 10:26 PM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Tonight, I think.

PvK July 7th, 2002 12:41 PM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Ok, I went and did more AI testing and tweaking, and it's practically done, but I should sleep and test in the morning, and hopefully release tomorrow some time.

PvK

Spuzzum July 8th, 2002 04:05 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
I had a very minor gripe about Proportions when I fiddled around with the Version from the Gold CD.

Population would weigh, at most, 200kT per million; that assumes 200 pounds per person, plus 100 pounds of luggage, plus a seat to sit in and some breathing room (which shouldn't be any more than 100 pounds).

I'm just saying that since I think that 1000kT is exaggerating things a bit. Of course, if your 1000kT also accounts for density as well as mass, then I'll shut up now. ;-)

Fyron July 8th, 2002 04:30 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Kilotons are an arbitrary unit of measurement. They don't actually mean anything.

Captain Kwok July 8th, 2002 04:33 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Ha Ha Ha...I remember joking with PVK about his fat colonists.

Phoenix-D July 8th, 2002 04:37 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
"Population would weigh, at most, 200kT per million; that assumes 200 pounds per person, plus 100 pounds of luggage, plus a seat to sit in and some breathing room (which shouldn't be any more than 100 pounds)."

That's also assuming *no room to move*, which either means the colonists are freeze dried or have a rather high tolerence for being packed in like sardines.

Consider also life support; the ship's LS would be to say the least overstressed by having a million people on board for months!

Phoenix-D

Spuzzum July 8th, 2002 04:38 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Kilotons are an arbitrary unit of measurement. They don't actually mean anything.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1000 tons has always meant 1000 tons to me. ;-)

Captain Kwok July 8th, 2002 04:44 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
I'm sure in any large scale movement, the people would be in some sort of suspended animation...it wouldn't make sense otherwise having to feed all those hungry mouths and entertain them before they start killing each other and saying "Are we there yet?"

Phoenix-D July 8th, 2002 04:47 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
"1000 tons has always meant 1000 tons to me. ;-)"

Figure this out then. How much *damage* is 50 kilotons? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

Fyron July 8th, 2002 04:51 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
1000 tons has always meant 1000 tons to me. ;-)

Are mines of 20,000 tons realistic? How about Fighters of 25,000 tons?

Phoenix-D July 8th, 2002 05:02 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
"How about Fighters of 25,000 tons?"

Considering they can run around a star system for *months* without needing to resupply at all, I'd say that's not excessively high. Mines are off, Sats might as well be space stations at that size.

Components aren't so bad; a 10kt bridge is a bit odd, but since no other control systems are needed I just lump those in there too. The DUCs are 30kt; large? Consider the fact that they never run out of ammo..

Having a 20kt storage bay store 100kt+ of stuff is a bit odd though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

ZeroAdunn July 8th, 2002 08:10 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Actually, you need to also consider that these are long trips. Some can Last several months, I would imagine each family would have a small living quarter, and then you would need extra life support too.

Spuzzum July 8th, 2002 08:30 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
"1000 tons has always meant 1000 tons to me. ;-)"

Figure this out then. How much *damage* is 50 kilotons? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, while people do have me on the ship scale concerns (like a 25K ton fighter), I can answer that one -- it's the amount of damage you would need to inflict to destroy 50 kilotons' worth of an average component. ;-)

Scale-wise, the game probably would have been better off choosing tons rather than kilotons. A 10-ton mine is definitely not out of the question when you're trying to destroy a 1200-ton dreadnought, and a 25-ton fighter makes perfect sense (assuming it was built to be solid, it'd be about the size of the average city bus).

Unfortunately, at that scale, it'd be pointless to carry population, since you'd be carrying thousands rather than millions.

Spuzzum July 8th, 2002 08:31 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Having a 20kt storage bay store 100kt+ of stuff is a bit odd though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not if you assume that supplies are very dense and not very bulky. The only concern is being able to tug all that weight around, which the game thankfully ignores. ;-)

PvK July 8th, 2002 09:47 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
We had a good discussion of the measurement issue in an earlier Proportions thread. Some general conclusions were and are:

1. "kT" must be taken abstractly in many cases. It can be interpreted in many ways, few of them equating directly to kilotons mass.

2. Proportions population mass of 1000kT per 1 million colonists was taken with actual mass in mind, but it does not only include the mass of the people themselves. If it did, your population would arrive nude and starving on an alien world, and would die immediately. I do NOT assume that every empire starts with super-efficient cryogenic storage (or ANY cryogenic storage). I do assume that they need clothing, food, drink, atmosphere support, shelter, tools, medicine, construction equipment, power generators, raw materials, spare parts, and a thousand other things. In sum, I'm being extremely generous with my estimate of the required mass to successfully move one million colonists to an alien world and to have them arrive in a condition where they will be able not only to survive there, but to start building a space age industrial/military colony, etc. However, see #1 above - kT is only meaningful in terms of what you can DO with it in the game.

3. There are many very goofy numbers in the default set (or Proportions) if you try to take kT literally. It's generally exaggerated by at least 1000 times, unless you imagine fighter units to be entire squadrons, etc, which is entirely reasonable. It's all a matter of interpretation.

PvK

Spuzzum July 8th, 2002 11:26 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Well, Spuzzum the Lummox is now entirely flummoxed. You win. ;-)

DirectorTsaarx July 10th, 2002 10:18 PM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Just to add some more fuel to the discussion... I always assumed kT referred to "displacement", like it does with sea-faring vessels. In which case "1 kT" means it displaces 1 kT of water. At which point it has less to do with mass than with volume. (Although one could argue that density was the important factor, but that's just mass divided by volume, so that 1 kT still isn't really mass (or even weight, which is a measure of the effect of a gravitational field on mass)).

Have fun debating!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

geoschmo July 10th, 2002 10:35 PM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
Just to add some more fuel to the discussion... I always assumed kT referred to "displacement", like it does with sea-faring vessels. In which case "1 kT" means it displaces 1 kT of water.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's funny you mention fuel, because that I believe is actually the source of the terminology. Someone posted here a while back, (can't remember who or where, but I wanna say it was Baron) that the source of the kiloton unit of measurment for ships originated with old pen and paper space games such as Traveller and Starfire. In those ships were fueled by liquid hydrogen, which was stored in tanks and measured in kilotons. Other components were measured relative to this in the amount of fuel that a similer size tank could hold. And weapons rating according to this is how large a component they can destroy according to this scale. At least that's how I remember it. It made sense at the time.

Geoschmo

Baron Munchausen July 11th, 2002 12:37 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
Despite the ability to adjust the 'weight' of population, I'd really like to see the return of dedicated population quarters. It's unrealistic to be able to load a bunch of people like they were cargo pallets & then drop them somewhere else and pickup a bunch of mines or satellites or some other dead weight. People don't live in containers. They need living space with life support, furniture, food, and minimal entertainment (communications?), etc. You should have to use special transport components for population. In this sense SE IV is a step back from SE III. I wonder if we could get MM to install another 'option' to allow dedicated population quarters since the image for them is included in SE IV.

PvK July 11th, 2002 04:18 AM

Re: Proportions 2.3 nearing completion
 
I agree Baron.

I've tried to approximate this in Proportions 2.2 by adding a starliner module component that offers savings over a massive number of cargo bays, but gives combat penalties so people will have disincentive to use them on combat designs.

PvK


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:10 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.