Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

This is now happened a second time to me and I'm convinced this is a bug. I put a ship in a fleet give the fleet orders and then in strategic combat the ship ignores the fleet orders and reverts to the ships class orders. ALL other settings are at default. (ie 'ships' have not been told to break formation) Please tell me someone else has noticed this. I don't think I ever had this problem in ver 1.49 just in Gold

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

What is the particular ship designed as?

There are separate settings for:
- Ships
- Carriers
- Colony ships
- Transports
- Ships (No Weapons)

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

The first time I noticed this it was a ship frigete or destroyer with missles and DUC that ignored it's don't hurt me orders. This was a single player game and I replayed the turn numerous times. they ships always ignored the fleet orders. When I gave the ship class orders 'don't hurt me' they obeyed. The latest instace was a light cuiser with PD, Cargo (with troops loaded) and boarding parties. The ship class had don't hurt me orders but the fleet (it being the only ship in the fleet) had Capature planet orders. During combat ir chose the don't hurt me orders. The next turn after I changed the class orders to Capture Planet it did so.

PS not sure what the second ship would be classed as but surely either 'Ship' or 'Ship no weaopons' both of which should not have broke formation

[ June 28, 2002, 02:43: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Just tested this again. Started a new game. All default settings. Build a frigte with missles and DUC, put it in a fleet, give fleet don't hurt me orders, attack something, and watch it die.

Is it really just me or is this normal?

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Did you create a new race or did you use a TDM race? Most of these races break formation by default.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It was a new race.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If a ship has a cargo bay, it probably falls into the Category of "Transport". Make sure transports have orders to stick with the fleet.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Could someone please please test out the above?? And tell me if your ship obeyed the fleet orders or ignores them like I've been experiencing. It seems like I'm the only one who has had this happen!!

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

I have tested it and can confirm it. I have sent a bug report to Aaron.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Whew! I was thinking I was the only one.

[ June 30, 2002, 02:10: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Well I just spent 15 minutes on the phone to a friend who called me up asking 'why don't my ships obey their fleet orders?' Is there really only 3 of us that have noticed this?? It just seem like such a huge bug I'm surprised no one else has experienced this. I'm still hoping someone can tell me I've got a setting wrong or something. Has anyone for example managed to have a fleet obey 'don't hurt me orders' in ver 1.67?

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

David, I can't say I've "noticed" this particular bug, but I have noticed many others from the strategy screen, most involving either the "ram" or "don't get hurt" orders. I think we are fighting some hard code here and our desires on the strategy screen just aren't enough to break through that code.

Kim

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Quite a few of the default settings in the Strategies are really bad choices. Changing them is one of the first things I do every game.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Well I hate to beat a dead horse with this topic but I'm hopping yet again someone will tell me if I've got a setting wrong: (game is all on default settings, including 'ships that break formation')

Ver 1.49 - Build 2 frigites with one missle and one DUC each. Put in fleet. Give fleet don't hurt me orders. Attack planet and watch ships run to corners.

Ver 1.67 - Build 2 frigites with one missle and one DUC each. Put in fleet. Give fleet don't hurt me orders. Attack planet and watch ships DIE.

Something clearly changed between ver 1.49 and 1.67

[ July 18, 2002, 01:38: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

I think maybe that most people didn't notice it because most people don't USE the fleet orders. Most people just have all ships break formation instead, so they expected their ships to follow the individual ship orders.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Well, i do use fleet orders. I havent toyed with ram and dont get hurt orders because i know these are glitchy yet i know some of the problems with fleets such as no-weapon ship breaks the whole formation (i just LOVE the formation fight. Good formation makes great things) and thus my carriers and transports all armed with weapons to ensure the ships keep on with their formation and fleet strategy. THis is mighty useful, at least in my opinion.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...which is part of the reason people don't use them more: the way ship movement is implemented, it's quite difficult to get good formation behavior.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

The fleet / ship order I would like to see:
When in Warp Point and Sats are present
Stay Behind Sats
Or some variation there of.

[ July 19, 2002, 18:50: Message edited by: The High Gryphin ]

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Which is if/then/else system which would make just a great addition to SE AI but....

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

And yes, someone explain me why are formations so much useless? I find out that (in my single-player games) formationed ships survive longer and hit harder than those without it.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

I think formations work tolerably well if you are using small Groups and they have weapons that fire every turn. But missles or other weapons that have to reload will try to retreat whil they do so. This results in the ships on the right wing crossing over and vise versa and getting bLasted in the process. This is even worse for large Groups as they have farther to go.

It would be nice if you could have small formations within the fleet. Wingmen in effect. 30 ships in Groups of 2 or 3 that are independant of the other Groups would be devastating I would think. Unfortunatly there is no way to do that currently that I know of.

Geo

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Personaly when i create fleet designs i always put an APB or PPB to every ship (including transports, missile ships, carriers) to keep the formation. I always count the max. number for the given formation and try to keep at the number. Makes me have several fleets but thats not a bad thing.

I'll also say that i strongly use Turbine and Butterfly formations and those do work very well for me, keeping the enemy under fire while ships always move making the enemy unable to hit the same ship twice in a row. When armor and shields are there, the life expectanct of my fleets rise greatly. I do not understand why everyone here hates formations so much, they are obviously underrated. at least, this is my opinion.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Taera
They work for you because you thought it our and practiced. Now I'm going to. Thanks for the ideas.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

One problem with fleets comes when the leader is suddenly reduced to a movement of 1, at which point the entire fleet only moves 1 space per combat turn.

The other problem (at least with older Versions of SE4, this may be fixed) is that sometimes, when the leader is destroyed, a fleet will "lose" a combat turn, which can be devastating...

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

My worst fleet experience was in a PBW game.

I forget how many ships were involved, but I was using the Flying V formation, and trying to intercept a slightly smaller enemy fleet.

Because this was a simultaneous game, it happened that when the fleets met, mine started in the center of the bottom of the map, and the enemy started in the lower right corner.

My fleet leader at the base of the V turned right and moved toward the enemy. As the rest of the formation tried to swing around, the entire right arm of the V hung up on the map border, piling up so badly that the fleet leader was blocked from moving further on the next turn. The whole fleet just sat there, pinned against the "invisible wall" while the enemy closed, not moving at all until a ship blocking the leader was destroyed.

That was how I learned the value of breaking formation.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Yes i've encountered the problem with fleet leader being destroyed and/or damaged and have found several ways to evade this problem.

First and most important is to use correct formations. Several ones, such as the Flying V and Arrowhead are quite useless as my personal expirience shows. Those useful are the ones that hold the leader in the middle (i use Turbine--my fav, Butterfly and Spider, all in appropiate situations) because then the formation spins around putting each time a different ship under enemy's fire, plus putting each ship under PDC protection while half of the ships are away from the enemy fire at time.

Second the leader should be well protected by armor and shields, do not put your weakest ship as fleet leader.

Third is the wise selection of fleet leader.
Remeber the Targeting Options. If its a leader-in-center formation the leader will never be closest/farest. YOu can make it wouldnt be most powerful/least powerful. etc. By using this the leader can avoid enemy fire for quite a while.

Also i have to say i never used the custom formations from TDM because i feel they would give me a major edge over the AI. Some formations such as the Barrage are awesome, good job for the TDM staff.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting. The only TDM custom formation I've ever even tried was the Dark Wing. I don't see any advantage at all to most of them.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Well not all of them, but some are.
Best example is the Barrage, this is the best formation i have ever seen and i dont even want to use it in my single-player games because considering my personal strategies this would be the perfect formation. Maybe.
Hard flanks is kinda similar, and the double-wall is much perfected wall formation.

No, i still do think TDM formations are great. And dark wing never seemed promising to me.

I'd just stick to TUrbine, i am already used to it.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Must be play-style differences. Double Wall puts half of your ships further away from the enemy than a normal Wall; I can't imagine why I'd want to reduce my firepower that much.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

Ok, I think why and when the problem with fleet formations has happened.

I started with this 1.58 Version change:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The reason for this change was the problem with AI that would still use formation strategy when it would break formations. This bug was important for AI because it would not be able to use fleets with different ship designs effectively. So just un-doing it wouldn't be good.

OTOH it seems that the patch makes ships ignore the fleet orders completely, even when the fleet formation is not broken. That makes fleet orders useless. This probably can be fixed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

I don't think ships completely ignore fleet orders. I often use the wall formation and they do stay in formation. What they do ignore is the don't hurt me orders. And I believe Capture Planet orders which I understand that correctly means a ship will fire on a planet untill all defensese are gone and then cease fire and allow the troops to land.

Re: Why don\'t ships obey their $@#$@# fleet orders
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Capture Planet fleet order mostly works (at least I've gotten it to work on some of my invasion fleets). What I like is that the game automatically (well, usually automatically) sets the fleet orders to Capture Planet if there's a Troop Transport ship in the fleet. Well, I like that until I forget that a particular fleet has a troop transport and order it to attack a small planet and I end up capturing some useless planet deep in enemy territory, just to see the AI glass the planet on the next turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

One problem with Capture Planet: if you run out of troops, the fleet won't fire on unarmed planets in strategic combat. Somewhat annoying at times...