tholians
 

I made a new shipset:

1025605536.zip

How do you like them ?

Re: tholians
 

The main sequence of ships is very nice. They 'sort of' resemble the only example given in the series, but not too closely. Some of the 'supporting' series like carriers are a little odd, but I guess it's hard to be creative with a single starting idea.

Giving them Crystalline Technology was a natural choice, of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If only there was a way to simulate the Tholian Web... we can only make them research and use tractor/repulsor beams for now.

[ July 02, 2002, 16:50: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: tholians
 

Good job Oleg. I like them.

Re: tholians
 

Nice shipset, They go in my folders right away.

Re: tholians
 

Yes, very nice set Oleg. Very nice indeed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, the race is missing three images.

Shields
Big Explosion
and a Baseship image (Mostly if one is not included, the game will use the Starbase BMP.)

Here ya go Add On Zip

Contains a Shield, Big Explosion, Baseship, and HTML viewer. (The baseship is the starbase image)

[ July 02, 2002, 22:49: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: tholians
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm... I wonder if Malfador would be opposed to implementing features designed to temporarily cause disruption of ship functionality. A Tholian Web generator could simply be two components that work in tandem -- a Disrupt Engines component and a Disrupt Weapons component. The Disrupt Reload Time is the closest thing to it, but that only disables the weapons as long as it takes to reload them.

Having some kind of device that could disable an entire portion of the ship for a pre-determined length of time -- i.e. being able to force a ship to be unable to move or shoot for 3 turns or so -- would be just plain cool. =)

I'm not sure how Malfador does ship abilities in the code, so I don't know how hard it'd be to implement. Based on my own programming "experience", and judging the overall difficulty of attaching lingering status effects to ships, I'd say it'd be moderate difficulty -- not a cinch, but not too difficult to consider either.

Re: tholians
 

You know, logically the 'Energy Dampener' ought to stop your engines as well as your weapons for however may combat turns. But by that argument, if it saps ALL energy, it ought to kill your shields too. Completely disarming a ship would be too powerful. I think that's why MM has seperated the functions into different classes of weapons.

I do wish we had at least a few area-effect weapons, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: tholians
 

Here is a missing base ship:
1025689899.zip

I am not satisfied with carriers either. I wanted to make them sufficiently different for better recognition and read in some web site that tholians make bigger ships from two or three smaller ships. That was the idea behind carriers.
I think I should remake them still.

Re: tholians
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, the existing image looks like a ship with 'horns' or something. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If you want to combine several hulls, maybe you could hang a couple of lengthened hulls from a larger hull like 'booms' or 'nacelles' and make a 'battlestar' looking ship. Or just put a flying bridge between a couple of cruiser-size hulls, for that matter.

Re: tholians
 

Tholian Web Site

If your interested in seeing what Oleg has done, please visit his Tholian Web Site at theNASY.

Re: tholians
 

Looking at the Tholian fighters I had a thought. The 'small fighter' looks like what I think a Tholian carrier should look like! Can you make a ship of the same geometric design as the small fighter but of much more apparent mass? You could make each successively larger carrier by adding more 'segments' to the design, since the breaks between the triangles would be where the 'bays' would be for fighters to launch and land.

Conversely, the carriers look like good fighters. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif The little extra hulls that give the apperance of 'horns' look like engines on a fighter.

Other than that, the designs look pretty good. I do think you've got the light cruiser and cruiser reversed, though. The light cruise has more in common with the smaller ships, including it's color scheme. The light cruiser looks more like the larger ships. I'd switch them around.

[ July 04, 2002, 20:08: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: tholians
 

Area Affecting weapons:
Could a storm be created that would kill engines and shields?
Could it be miss labled to indicate it is a "safe" storm? Just a buch of "eye candy"?
Could a racial tech be modded such that only one race would have access to such storms.
I realize this would not work in combat but the race in quesiton could build ships to create these storms, and ships to remove them after the flys have been caught in the web.

Re: tholians
 

Thanks a lot !

I'll try your ideas. I escpecialy like swaping
carrier and small fighter.

Re: tholians
 

Nicely done set!

Re: tholians
 

BTW, I have a Vorlon shipset that has you as one of the credited designers, too. It has no drone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif This must have been an early draft? Where can the latest one be obtained? At the B5 mod homepage? Do I have to download the entire mod to get the Vorlon shipset?

Re: tholians
 

Yes, it was pre-Gold.

I made a new complilations of available Vorlon ship pictures. Will post them later.

Re: tholians
 

Ok, but also note that the 'Vorlon' light cruiser is a Whitestar! That's not right. There should be a seperate 'Army of Light' race composed of lots of borrowed images from the other races and the Whitestar class. The Vorlons should not be using that image.

Also, some of the mini images, like the colonizer, seem out of proportion to the portraits. I guess a colonizer is supposed to be huge, but the portrait for the colonizer really does NOT match the mini. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: tholians
 

I changed carriers. Is it better now?

1026893605.zip

Re: tholians
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Uh, no... that's the same. The carriers still look like fighters. The SMALL FIGHTER still looks like a good basis for a carrier design. Big 'segments' of triangular crystal with the open edges being natural locations for fighter bays.

Re: tholians
 

I would ahve to agree that I like this set, it just doesn't look very "Tholian". But it would be a nice set as a unique race.

The race pic though is very good. It does appear that it could be what the distorted images available from TOS represent.

Geo

Re: tholians
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Further information on Tholian and Neotholian vessels (and their general configurations, shapes, etc) can be had in SFB products (SFB = Star Fleet Battles; several artists renderings should stil be available, scattered about the website for that game, at the Star Fleet Battles Official Site ).

Several 3D models of Tholian vessels can be found here: SFB Miniatures

Specifically, the Tholian PC ("Patrol Corvette", analogous to an SE4 Escort), CA (Cruiser), DN (Dreadnaught), NCA (NeoTholean Cruiser), and NDA (NeoTholian Dreadnaught).

Oh, for the non-SFBers out tehre: the Tholians aren't native to our galaxy, they're refugees from anotehr one ... they WERE backwater polliticians there. The Neotholians are a remnant of a full Naval squadron that managed to also make the crossing, some years later. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Though the link is unavailable, I do see a listing for a color-paint guide, which would give a good image of colors involved on some of the hulls folks might be unfamiliar with. The individual hull links -do-lead to color-scheme listings.

SFB hulls are based on allof the TV shows, the first filmor two, and the cartoon series (hence being able, legally, to use Niven's Kzin -- he HIMSELF wrote them into a couple episodes of the cartoon, heh).

If folks want, I can dig out my old SFB stuff, then see about borrowing use of a friend's scanner, and thus send a representative sample of the ship types used in "canon" SFB 9where the Tholians have had the best, most thorough treatment).

All the above said ... I've not yet looked at the shipset myself (about to remedy that). Ergo, the above is not meant to be taken as a criticism of Oleg's work ... just a pointer at additional resources for visual data WRT naval vessels of the Tholian Holdfast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: tholians
 

Having viewed teh shipset now: Oleg, nice ships, but ... they're -not- Tholian, at least not as a dedicated Tholian/SFB purist such as myself would accept them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Sorry.

The ships are nice in their own right ... but ... *shrug* ... they just don't say "Tholian Holdfast" to me.

Images of miniatures (sculpted, physical 3D models), though small and a -bit- hard to see properly, can be found here: SFB Catalog Tholian Miniatures .

Note how the CA (second listing form the top, the left-hand ship) is -basically- two smaller ships, welded mostly side-by-side. The right hand ship in that same image is the NCA, a Cruiser of the NeoTholian squadron.

The Tholian PC is the basic ship of the entire line -- the one based directly on the TV episode the Tholians were first featured/mentioned in (there have been others, though usually they're only vague/roundabout references http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

Just to clarify, SFB classes proceed (from smallest to largest):

PC ... Patrol Corvette / Police Cruiser
FF ... Frigate
DD ... Destroyer
DW ... War Destroyer
CL ... Light Cruiser
CW ... War Cruiser
CA ... Cruiser
BC ... Battlecruiser
DN ... Dreadnaught
BB ... Battleship

If you examine the image for the CW + PC set, you will see the War Cruiser is essentially two PC's, one stuck op the other's backside, then welded in place. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

So if you're interested in building a "Purist's Tholian Shipset" ...

Re: tholians
 

PAX,
Thanks! for the links. I have about 20 un painted miniatures.
Hm, Play SE or paint ships.
Any suggestions?

Re: tholians
 

After reading the stormy discussion about Gorn ship set, I believe my Tholians insulted quite a few trekkies. Therefore I am inclined to make them some other race and never ever again touch anything ST related. Please vote what should I do: keep them or change ?

Re: tholians
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't take it too seriously Oleg. All this stuff is made up anyway. The Tholians and Gorn are two extremely MONOR races form TOS. The Tholians had one ship, and IIRC we never even got to seeee the Gorn ships even once. So everything else since, ie Star Fleet Battles is just something someone else made up anyway. It just so happens they made it up before you did. That doesn't make it any more correct than yours.

Besides, who says we can't have more than one of these shipsets floating around. There are 5 or 6 Federation shipsets by my count. Noone is claiming theirs to be "official".

So, don't take the critics too seriously. Have fun making your shipsets. And know that they will be used and appreciated by somebody, that's what counts right?

Geoschmo

Re: tholians
 

Oleg:

I actually thought your shipset represented the Tholians quite well. The translucent colouring and faceted look are exactly what I would expect from them. Don't get discouraged by a few minor complaints/whines - it's what Star Trek fans do best.

Re: tholians
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nonono ... don't give up on ST races. You don't have to change your shipset either. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

That's not the sort of response I wanted to provoke in folks who make shipsets; with you, you evenmentioned some SFB details (the use of multiple smaller hulls to make larger ships), and Iw anted to point you at further resoruces for future refinements ... along the lines you'd already chosen for the set, and/or if you wanted to evolve the set closer to an SFB look.

They don't say "Tholian" to me, but it's still a good shipset, and there're plenty of Trekkers out there who're less of a purist than I am WRT how such and such a ship type might look.

And oleg ... I'm a FANATICAL Tholian fan. We're talking, foaming at the mouth rabid fancritter where the Tholians are concerned (gotta love the Neotholian's Webcaster ... *drool*).

And your ships don't insult me. Fall short of what I might have created n yoru place? Well hell, man, anythign that wasn't 100% accurate to SFB would do that ... if it was off by one pixel! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Keep the ships. Maybe make a future revision that uses some of the SFB resources I pointed you to (I'd like that, of course!). But don't toss 'em in the recycle bin just because one extremely vocal member of the comunity spoke up about his dissatisfaction with current shipsets based on established SF races ...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Please! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: tholians
 

SFB isn't canon, so ships don't have to look like what SFB ships look like.

Re: tholians
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's a nice shipset. Keep it. If you are concerned about 'authenticity' then make another set based on the SFB images. You could call the SFB based set Tholians and call your first set something else, and give them a backstory about being the race from another galaxy come to get the Tholians! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Apparently the 'backstory' for the Tholians is that they are refugees from another galaxy where they had an empire and enslaved other races. When the plebes rebelled and started to slaughter the rulers, some of them gathered up some ships and fled. And arrived here.

Re: tholians
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL, those would be the Seltorian Tribunal. 8) I don't have images or SSD's for their ships though, sorry.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Specifically, the Tholians in the Trek / SFB galaxy were backwater oliticians and rural police, whomoved their system -- yes, you heard right, the WHOLE SYSTEM, which was a Dyson Sphere (think Sphereworld) -- across from the Tholian Old Home Galaxy, to here. They've resisted the urge to initiate a war of conquest ... because they're laying low, trying not to attract the attention of their former servitor-races back in the Home Galaxy; the Klingons dislike them because the Holdfast occupies what was once a fringe province of the Klingon Empire ... but the Tholians excel at defense, so ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

During the Great War, when the Holdfast itself (their "home" system, the sphereworld mentioned above) was threatened by the combined Coalition forces (Klingon, Romulan, and IIRC even some Lyran Star Empire ships were present), the "NeoTholians", remnants of a Tholian -Naval- squadron, arrived on scene ... saving the day, as the Coalition forces weren't able to adapt their tactics rapidly enough to counter the new technologies (largely Webcasters, and -true- warship hulls and designs) the "Neo" Tholians brought with them.

Well, the Alliance fleets (Federation, Kzin, Gorn, perhaps a Hydran expeditionary fleet) there to assist helped too, but it was the NeoTholians who truly turned the tide of battle.

...

Later, the Seltorians did track down the Trek-galaxy Tholians, arriving on a mission of total genocide; various Alliance fleets managed to destroy the Tribunal fleets, but that's a bit of Tholian history I'm a bit fuzzy on (I prefer pre-Seltorian era Tholian ships, myself).

Re: tholians
 

This is just my very humble personal opinion, but I find this critic about the authenticity of races inappropriate. If you don't like the race, nobody forces you to use it. And I believe the creators of the races should have the freedom to make it like they want it to be and not be slaves to the original TV pictures.

Re: tholians
 

If even Pax does not mind, I'll keep them as it is for a time being. once anybody creates more "authentic" ship set, I have no objections to rename them as a some sort of Tholian bashers, as Baron and Pax suggested. Seltorian Tribunal sounds nice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: tholians
 

Oleg, too hell with what others think. IF they are so high and mighty on Star Trek, then let them make their own ship sets. I honestly didn't see any one else step up to bat to make the Tholians except you. Therefor my friend, your Tholians are THE Tholians for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: tholians
 

I made another attempt to improve carriers/fighter:

1027947910.zip

Also, I'm working on "canon" tholian ship set.
Here is a sample:

1027948133.zip

I do not like coloring scheme at all, but it follows (more or less closely) SFB blueprints.
Should I change it ?

I also have no idea how carriers, bases, fighters, etc. should look like.

Re: tholians
 

The new carriers in the "non-canon" set look better than your originals.

I agree that the color scheme from the "canon" set is a little odd, but the ships do appear faithful to the SFB view. I have no idea what color scheme would be better, of course. Maybe give it more of a red tint than a yellow tint?

Re: tholians
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm. I think it's the lack of detail / visual interest that's a problem with the canon shipset; not sure how to fix that, sorry.

Tholian carriers tended to mount their fighters *externally*, on small docking clamps. In SFB this gives teh advantage of simultaneous launch fo ALL fighters, and also possible simultaneous -recovery- of all fighters.

Re: tholians
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">&lt;Start Whining...&gt; WAAAAA &lt;/End Whining&gt;

Ok look, nothen personal, but if you're going to be outputting something that fosters a creative touch or is in any way a biproduct of YOUR talents and YOUR time/effort... Have the god damn strength to stand up for yourself and say "**** you, too damn bad" if people don't like it. Which, obviously, isn't even nesessary since everyone who "offended you" turned around and had to repost their Messages with clearer intentions.

Oleg, as Im sure they have all told you already in their countless 3 pages of replies... But Do what you do, and never put yourself in that spot where you havta say **** like "Well maybe I should just NEVER EVER touch that stuff again", or whatever. Be proud of what ya put out, and accept the criticism (coz it does help as far as quality control), but ****, don't let it stop you in your tracks.

I'm sure whatever jackass that invented the Tholians (if dead) is smiling in his grave that someone alive gives two ****s enough to try to breathe them life in this Game... OR (if alive) he's been too damn lazy to do it himself. LOL. Honestly I don't know. But either way stand strong - keep up the work.

Re: tholians
 

*Bump*

Just wondering if anybody took a look.

Re: tholians
 

I changed few pictures :
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1053345812.zip

I also included Proportions' AI. If you want to update ships in the race directory for unmoded SE,
take care not to overwrite AI files !

Re: tholians
 

Fine work! I always liked this set and that's why I included them in the STmod. Can I ask a favour though...can you resend me the mini images for the stations as top down shots rather than mini portraits (including the 'barge' image)? Much obliged!

Re: tholians
 

a very, very nice crystalline set oleg. i like it.

Re: tholians
 

Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I never had top-down mini pictures of stations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif But I'll make them, no problems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: tholians
 

Great set, and it's always nice to have another AI for Proportions. Thanks. Seems to be lacking any kind of readme though.

I'll add this set to the list of neo-standard compatible races. (I count 7 neo-standard images)

Re: tholians
 

Frankly, AI is very close to my Cryslonite/Nostropholo AI - do not have any fresh
ideas how to improve AI but I wanted to have this shipset in my games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: tholians
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know you didn't have them before, but just a special request since I prefer to use that type in the mod.

I took a closer look and I like most of the new additions. This means I'll have to change around the Tholian ships for a third time in the STmod - oh well, hard life but what can I do? They look great in the game.

Re: tholians
 

I like the new aditions, currently playing against the old set and the new images look great in game after replacing them! I like the dreadnought a lot! A great Addition http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: tholians
 

Captain, check your private Messages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif