Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

Multiple Ship Training Facilities on a planet do not stack. However, there is a way to get more than 3% training (ignoring the Psychic equivalent) from them per turn.

Take a planet, say Xerxes, that has 2 moons. Build a Ship Training Facility III on Xerxes and each of it's moons. Now, move a ship in orbit of Xerxes. Each turn, the ship will be trained by all three Ship Training Facilities, for a total training of 9% per turn.

This may be a bug exploit because building 3 Ship Training Facilities on a single planet does not result in 9% training per turn. Multiple facilities do not stack on a planet, but they do stack with multiple planets in one sector.

However, one could argue that it still takes time to get ships to the training center, and then to the front lines. The mooned planet may be in a location far from where you need your ships to be. So, in some instances, it will save you time. At other times, it could take longer to train your ships at a mooned planet and get them to the front lines.

The same thing can also be done with Fleet Training Facilities.

So... is this a bug exploit or an intended game feature? Either way you answer, please explain why. Thanks for your time.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

I'm going to call this a bug because the training facilities were specifically designed as a "only one effective" facility. Plus, how would it be possible for the three training centres on separate planets to simultaneously train a ship's crew?

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

The crew could be sent to different specialized facilities. They could have one for the command crew, one for the engineering crew, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

IMHO, that is not a bug exploit, but I wouldn't call it intended either http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

I'd say it is a clever way to stay within the rules of the game.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

Rollo, go on the IRC chat if you can. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

I would say there is nothing wrong with someone doing this in a game. Calling this a bug and someone doing it as a bug exploiter is incorrect IMHO. The description clearly says "only 1 facility per planet effective", not one per sector. As Rollo says this may be unintended by the designer simply because it didn't occur to him, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to do. If he decides to change it in a future patch that's fine, but until then it should be fair game.

Geoschmo

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

Yeah, but you don't think MM intended this kind of use for the facility do you? How can a ship be able to train at 3 planets at the same time to get this experience? I think it should be changed for sure...

[ July 08, 2002, 02:24: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

I don't know if MM did or didn't intend for this. I would guess not, but I don't know that. If the description of the facility was "Only one per sector effective" then I would definetly say it was a bug and should not be exploited.

You can remote mine three planets with a single miner component. Is this a bug exploit? Was it intended? I don't know. I see it as the same thing.

This is different I think than a more obvious bug such as the mines per sector thing that is causing so many headaches lately. That is a little more cut and dried than this (although it's still a pain to try and enforce http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ).

Another example is the accelarted ship construction via retrofitting. Did MM intend for this to be allowed? A lot of people do it, a lot of people think it's cheating. It's a grey area. MM has addressed it a couple times. First in reducing the retrofit percentage to make it take longer, and making it more expensive. In the next patch there will be a prohibition against retrofitting to add a space yard or colony comp through retrofitting. All well and good, it won't be doable anymore. But does that mean anyone that did it before was cheating? I guess it depends on your point of view.

Geoschmo

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

Just because something lets you do something, doesn't mean it's right. If that wasn't the case, then I could go out right now, get a ferry ride to Vancouver Island, and shoot Premier Gordon Campbell (our Liberal provincial moron/leader). I sure as heck could do it (and believe me, I really want to!), but I wouldn't because it isn't the right thing to do*. ;-)

Likewise, just because this is possible doesn't mean it's a legitimate thing to do. I wouldn't nominate this in a "bug" Category, but I would definitely nominate it in an "exploit" Category. I would indeed consider the player so-doing a cheater.


* Well, that, and the fact I'd go to jail because of it. =)

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

Well, as long as all players in the game can do this, then it cannot be considered cheating. I would personally like to see this fixed in the next or a future patch.

However, when playing the AI only, I would consider this one an "exploit"

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

If all players in a game of Poker can manage to sneak looks at each others' hands, is that not cheating? ;-)

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

I (obviously, since I described it in another thread as a useful way to utilise one-facility-only moons) do NOT consider it a cheat, nor an "exploit" in the negative sense.

Put it this way -- it causes one location in a player's empire to be *very important*.

Yes, if I were playing and had a two-moon world among my colonies, I'd plant training facilities on both moons, and on the world itself. Yes, as a Psychic race, I could theoretically then gain 12% per turn a ship stays parked there.

Think of the time and resources invested in setting that up. Think of the time and resources spent making sure the multiple-training-centre worlds aren't captured or wipte out. Think of the time and effort making sure cloaked enemy minelayers don't leave "surprise packages" along the transfer routes between production and training centres.

As for the question of how this is possible: for one, yes, the multiple "specialty school" approach.

For two, more realistic if you're usingmultiple ships ... competing schools, holding regular wargames between them.

Larger pools of cadets to draw from, sending only the best to serve on the ships (really, one shoudl be training the crew before the ship leaves the space dock ...).

Anyone who calls someone a cheater just because they didn't realise something was possible ... for shame.

I've played all of zero games against human beings (yet); I'm absolutely certain most of you who have, know yoru way around the tech tree far better than I do.

Should I call your "foreknowledge" of what research begets what component, cheating ... ? Just because I don't know the same things?

No.

The Fleet and Ship training facilities clearly say one per PLANET. Just because someone makes the cognitive leape of "hey waitaminnit, I've got three planets over there, I wonder if ships would benefit from facilities on all three ... I wonder if the benefits would stack ... ?" and tries it, doesn't make them a cheater.

Nor an exploiter. How many of you use tricks, weapons/component combinations, strategies, and so on based on what you have each discovered about the way the game works? Isn't that the same sort of exploitation some of you are characterising the "mega-academy" stacked training centre idea as -- using what you've observed about the game's functions, to your benefit?

Worst case, absolute worst case -- what real benefit does this sort of thing give you?

Better training at a primary staging point. Less time spent sitting around on one's hands (or alien equivalents thereto).

What are the risks and costs?

More-centralised training facilities. If you only have ONE of those two-moon mega-academies, and the enemy manages to obliterate (or worse, capture) it, you're S.O.L. Also there's transit time; if you're a nut about training ships as much as possible, that means you'll have ships in space moving TO that mega-academy, instead of training locally, or instead of jumping right into a fight.

...

Someone tell me again, how the idea is a cheat again ... ? I just don't see it ...

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

I never claimed it to be a cheat because it is availible to all players; what I was commenting on is that I don't think this was what MM intended for the facility.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

im with Pax and Geo. it may be unintended, but its not a cheat, and i dont really see a need to fix it. i had not thought of trying it before, but i probably will now, unless a game owner prohibits it.

if all the other reasons below were not good enough, maybe there can be better training from having access to multiple astronomical bodies in one sector. being able to manuver around multiple planets / moons and their gravity would create a wider variety of traning scenarios than would be available at just a single planet.

besides, is it cheating to stack psychic facilities with normal facilities?

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

I guess my pet peeve is with training experience being too effective in overall battles...I tend to prefer more even-handed battles between equally matched fleets rather than the lopsided ones that too often occur. Afterall, you're not fighting a bunch of Starfleet heroes on every ship are you?

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well if someone invests the time and resources into building a multiple-world training centre affair ... probably you are facing StarFleet heroes in every engagement! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Seriously though -- what you're most likely going to see is, the initial waves will be better-trained than you might expect. After the war ends, that player will be able to re-build a core cadre of Elite (20%) ships and fleets sooner than otherwise.

By, um ... all of about 3 or so turns. Tops.

Most likely (unless playing in a high-starting-tech game), it will allow non-Psychic players the same speed of trainin by parking ships there, that a Psychic player could get from parking ships at a central training point -- or psychic players to get a 50% increase in rate of training. How?

PLANET: Fleet training, Ship training, Space Yard, sundry other facilities.
MOON #1: Fleet training (1/1 facilities built)
MOON #2: Ship training (1/1 facilities built)

To do much better, you need to convert the atmosphere ... and that doesn't seem like an early-game, nor even mid-game, thing to do (not to mention 20 to 30 turns waiting for the world to be ABLE to have a training centre built on it, while an atmosphere is generated ...).

And, CPT Kwok, I know you didn't call it cheating, but Spuzzum did. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

well, a faster solution is to import a vaccuum 'breathing' race and build two training facs and a spaceyard on each moon and planet. then you can crank out the ships, and have them trained on sight.

with regards to training though, if you want to see how well untrained troops fair, look at the russians vs. anyone in history. the only thing that kept the place soverign was their winter weather, even though they have some of the best scientists the world has ever seen.

and to quote someone else, "The British kept Quebec because the American forces were a largely untrained mob"

proper training is paramount to victory, what do you think would have happened to the causualty rate on American bomber flights circa WWII if the crews had not spent several weeks learning how to use the machineguns, compensate for recoil and lead their targets?

but if you dont like how experience affects combat performance, then change it in settings.txt

as far as giving psychics a higher training ability from their facilities, i dont think it can be done, judging by the settings file.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

"as far as giving psychics a higher training ability from their facilities, i dont think it can be done, judging by the settings file"

The speed and top end of the training facilities are in the facilities file, and are modable.

Phoenix-D

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

I think it would be nice if MM made experience completed moddable - so that you could adjust the maximum values or mess around with the different levels (elite, novice) etc...

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just to send this again spiral into off topic:

Russia only had it's weather as a FAILSAFE.

The reason russia lost is:

The uneffective command of troops between the commander and the Czar during world war 1.

Stalin's Purge, which killed many brilliant commanders and minds replaced them with Communist hicks.

Both of them could have been prevented, and with the weather as a backup, and it's fervor, russia still stands.

Also: That Proper training thing?

If that was true, United States of America would be the Dominion of American States.

Also, if that was true, Vietnam would have been operation speedy resolution.

Not a flame but just correcting some flaws.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And still does! =)

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I had the exact same thought Last night at the IRC chat...

...wait... does that mean I think like Puke does... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ?

AAAAARRGH...

* Rollo runs away screaming http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 08, 2002, 10:09: Message edited by: Rollo ]

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

Setting aside the arguments of:
Is it cheating?
Is it realistic?

Since there is some disagreement on its use, In a game against humans it should be part of a “Gentlmans agreement” to use or not.
Since, (and correct me if I’m wrong), The AI does not use them, I feel it would be unsporting to use them. Just the way I see it.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

Totally agree with that Gyphin. Although you could say it's unsporting to play against the AI period and I wouldn't disagree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But if you are playing the AI, and you want a good tough fight you shouldn't use the training facilities at all, because if they use them it will be by accident. It should be easy enough to get them to build the facilitiy, but I don't think they can make the decision to park their fleets in orbit to get the benifit of them.

If an agreement is made for a specific game to not use them, or to only use one per sector, then by all means you should abide by that. But noone should assume that agreement is in place, or call someone a cheater for doing this when it has not been prohibited.

Geoschmo

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

[quote]Originally posted by TerranC:

Quote:

Also: That Proper training thing? If that was true, United States of America would be the Dominion of American States. Also, if that was true, Vietnam would have been operation speedy resolution. Not a flame but just correcting some flaws.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, but TerranC you are missing a critical point of both your examples. The British army in 1776, and the American Army in Vietnam had more training than their opponents. But it was the wrong kind of training. They were woefully undertrained for the particular kind of fight they found themself ingaged in, and paid dearly. This is a point that doesn't translate well into a game like SEIV.

In the few European style set-piece battles the British and Americans fought, the British did very well. It was only when the American forces modified their tactics that they began to have success. Then the guerilla tactics, constant harrasment, large distances in supply lines, and public disatisfaction at home took the fight out of the British army and made the outcome we had possible.

Ditto in Vietnam, just switch the players...

Geoschmo

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

[quote]Originally posted by geoschmo:

Quote:

Then the guerilla tactics, constant harrasment, large distances in supply lines, and public disatisfaction at home took the fight out of the British army and made the outcome we had possible. Geoschmo

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please dont forget the fact that we were also at war with pretty much all of mainland europe at the time and could not devote anything more than token forces to the [defence] of America

Your point is right however. The Americans tried to take on the British in the conventional style of warfare of the day and the result was, to be fair, a slaughter. When that happens, you need to change tactics dramatically and that is where you get the learning differential the loser adopts.. Mastering that learning curve means the side that doesnt have it gets whomped

And this brings me on cunningly to a recent analogy that happened to me on the hot seat game I am playing with the cat. My highly trained beam armed fleet ran right into the teeth of her missile armed/fighter conVersions and the PDC's on my ships just couldnt things down quick enough - my targeting priority was fighters so the missiles just swamped my ships - that cost me 2 pilchards and a tin of hi-life mackerel

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We will give you that, if you acknowledge that the powers that be at the time drastically underestimated the Colonists fighting ability and spirit in that they thought those "token" forces would be more than enough. The British army made one crucial mistake in the War of Independance. They forgot the colonists were British themselves. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The Union made the same mistake a hundred years later against the Confederacy. Had we had 2000 miles of ocean between us instead of just the Ohio and Patomac Rivers I have no doubt that war would have ended similerly.

You play SEIV against your cat? How does his performance stack up against that of the AI? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

I will give you the fact that the token forces send by The British were considered sufficient to beat (and would have) the Americans in a european style battle but also keep in mind that the vast bulk of those forces were German mercenaries rather than BVritish regulars (who were off duffing up the French)

Yes, the colonialists were British up to the point they wanted to seccede.

The real Growltigga is MUCH MUCH better than the AI, in fact he is much much better than most people... he has a real grasp of strategy and is absolutely superb at combined arms theory... where he lets himself down is any concept of infrastructure development, cats are not great economic administrators

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I suppose that's mainly because they have no pockets to speak of. If cats had invented pants they would no doubt be the dominant species on the planet.

Geoschmo

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

Multiple Training Facilities,

If I get to do it, then it is a feature.
If you do it and stomp me, then it is a bug. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

What is the point of a complex indepth strategy game if you can not do anything indepth?

If all players can do it, then it is not unbalancing.

BUT.... THERE ARE NO GAS MOONS!!!
Gas Giant races are at a serious early game disadvantage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

-------------------------------------------------
Rock, Paper, Sledge Hammer

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, it's not as bad as all that. For one thing the training fac's aren't what I would call an early game tech anyway. Many people devote a lot of early research points to the military science branch, so they can appear relativly early in the game though.

It doesn't change the maximum amount of experience the ships can acquire. It only makes them able to get that training faster.

Geoschmo

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I suppose that's mainly because they have no pockets to speak of. If cats had invented pants they would no doubt be the dominant species on the planet.

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh? Why invent pants when someone else can manage the money for you? And why evolve hands when someone else can open the catfood cans for you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

"On the planet Earth, Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much... the wheel, New York, and so on... conversely the dolphins believed themselves to be more intelligent than Man for precisely the same reasons." -- Douglas Adams

[ July 08, 2002, 17:46: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There are no gas moons because the data files don't create them. You could mod "double planet" gas giants if you wsnted to.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Um. It's not planet type per se, it's atmosphere that's most limiting. Gas-giant players simplyhave to make an estimate: will Rock or Ice colonisation give them more benefit first? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Then there's the comparative advantage vacuum-"breathers" get, since all moons are airless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yea, round about 20k "Hessen" (the state of Germany I'm from http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). They were never beaten in an open battle. General Washington however got lucky and a plague stroke the Hessen. This weakened force was attacked and destroyed by him finally right after (or one?) Christmas day.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

BUT.... THERE ARE NO GAS MOONS!!!
Gas Giant races are at a serious early game disadvantage.

Play Fyron's Quadrant Mod, and that problem is solved. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

yeah, i have always been of the opinion that washington was a fairly lously general. and i'll grant you that improper tactics played a part in our early struggles in viet nam, but it was mainly politics holding us back in the end. i dont think we 'lost' in viet nam any more than the british 'lost' in 1812. it was an unpopular war at home, they didnt have much to gain from a prolonged conflict, so they packed up and left. so did we. similar in korea, we quit because McArthur didnt want to nuke china.

as to training levels though, i think its fairly clear to everyone the importance that it plays. i think training should be as important or more important than it is, but that it should be costly. it takes a great deal of money to keep your military trained during peacetime. i think that to represent this that overall maintainance costs should be increased, OR, training facilities should confer a system-wide maintainance PENALTY.

i also wish experience levels would decrease over time, say 2% a year or something.

regarding starting disadvangage for gassy types, it depends on the game. gassers always have it hard starting out. gas will have it even harder in a 'colonize only own type' games. and unless you can easily steal some 'none' breathers, then races breathing 'none' will have a distinct advantage. not only do they get those swanky moons like they did before, but they can now become uber training and shipbuilding complexes.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That argument is false Spuzzum. What you are missing is that this isn't just a matter of a game flaw allowing you to do something you aren't supposed to be able to do. The game doesn't say you aren't supposed to be able to do this. You are making an assumption based on incomplete evidence.

You may be capable of assasinating the PM, but you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's against the laws of Canada and the inalienable laws of mankind.

Just because you say it's wrong to have multiple training faciliites doesn't meean it is wrong. If a future patch were made that made it against the rules, but because of a mistake the fix didn't work and you still could do it, then it would be an exploit and cheating to continue doing it. Until then it is clearly not.

If I arbitrarily say it's unfair to attack an enemy without warning, or without giving them time to prepare defenses, do you have to not do that? Would you be cheating if you did it? Of course not.

Geoschmo

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, MacArthur DID want to nuke the 120000+ Chinese descending on the Chosan Basin and also those in their staging areas north of the Yaloo. He was fired by the then President Eisenhower becausa Ike told him no, Mac told the press what he felt about Ike and was sacked.

As far as Vietnam goes...When the shackles were released from the USAF and they were allowed to fight the war "their" way for 6 days, ie...bombing Hanoi and associated infrastructure, the North's efforts were set back for months. A 6 month campaign could have won that war, or at least set things so that a democratic gov't. could have had a chance.

So, the training doesn't seem to matter as much as what is actually done with the troops and weapons.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

Thanks Gil, youre absolutely right on Eisenhower v MacArthur, i had my personalities crossed. regarding Korea and Viet Nam, both were largely influenced by industrial output. we had more, and could field more hardware and better hardware. well, better up until the mouse gun.

As I understand it, the Tet offensive left the North horribly over-extended, and as you say, 6 months could probably have ended it for us.

a better example of training might be the recent Afghan conflict. look at what we were able to do there compared to what the Russians were able to do. Sure we had more money to throw at the problem, but I like to think that we're a little better at it too.

In SE4, i think that experience and training should be able to turn the tide of any battle being fought by forces that are fairly evenly matched, or at least close to being fairly evenly matched. Industrial output, on the otherhand, should be the deciding factor in any WAR. I am fairly happy with the 20/50 experience limits as they stand, but i would be interested in hearing arguments for either raising or lowering them.

also, i wish that missile ships would gain XP as fast as beam or PD ships. seems silly. maybe if it was all fleet experience and not ship experience.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That possibly may be the case but I believe that felix vulgaris was too busy developing alternative 'carryall' technology to trouser technology to notice

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

I have to agree that using multiple planets in a single sector to get faster training is NOT a cheat/bug/flaw; I think it's a neat idea. I'm sorry I didn't think of trying it myself.

I'd also like to mention that using training facilities against the AI isn't necessarily "unsporting". At least one of the stock AIs (and, I suspect, many of the TDM AI's) use racial points to improve offense and/or defense. I usually put points into construction, repair and research (not to mention Temporal Knowledge & advanced propulsion), so I've ended up on the receiving end of what amounts to a better-trained fleet. It's not pretty. In fact, it can be downright upsetting when you only hit with 10% of your shots while the enemy AI completely destroys your fleet. So, when I meet one of the offense/defense bonus races I'll build training facilities just to even the odds (or tip the scales in my favor, of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

[quote]Originally posted by geoschmo:

Quote:

That argument is false Spuzzum. What you are missing is that this isn't just a matter of a game flaw allowing you to do something you aren't supposed to be able to do. The game doesn't say you aren't supposed to be able to do this. You are making an assumption based on incomplete evidence.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The game doesn't necessarily say you can, either. You can simply do it due to an unforeseen circumstance.

Happens to me all the time, since I'm a fledgeling programmer. My players are always finding nifty little tricks that give them an advantage.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Premier. Prime Minister's over in Ottawa -- while I do have a bone to pick with him too, he's far better defended, and I don't have the money for a plane ticket. ;-)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The problem here is not the fact that the game doesn't officially say that it's wrong -- it's the fact that the game definitely makes the implication that there should only ever be one training facility per sector, since the normal circumstance is to have only one planet per sector. I agree that saying something is wrong doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong, but finding a scapegoat doesn't make things right either.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unfair things are not quite the same as unintended things.

The game was designed with diplomacy and backstabbing in mind. It wasn't designed with the intent to allow people to build facilities on multiple planets in the same sector to gain a greater advantage.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

Wardad
"BUT.... THERE ARE NO GAS MOONS!!!
Gas Giant races are at a serious early game disadvantage"

Unless you choose:
"Advanced Storage Technique". This, (to my experiance), ballences the equation.
As mentioned many tiems, SE IV is an elaborate game of Rock / Paper / Sissors.
That combination of more resourses should offset the lack of Gas Moons.

May your draw always be swift, your aim accurate, and your reason noble.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

As for the issue of fair or unfair in the multible faciites per sector,
I'm with Gryphin and Geoschmo.

Make, (and honor), a gentlmans agreement with humans.
Don't use it against the AI.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

Reguarding "Sporting"
At the beging of the game we are on equal foottings with the designers of the AI.
If we want the added defensive bonus the way the AI is given it, then that is the time to take it. In doing so we make the same tradeoffs that the designer of the AI had to make.
During the game, the AI is unlikely to take advantage of a Training Faciity if it does build one.
At that point it becomes, FMPS, (For My Play Style), unsporting to use them.
That said, I must conceed there are many things a human can not avoid doing that the AI can not / will not do.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then again, the game doesn't specifically say you can combine Shard Cannons and Shield Disruptors, now, does it?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not true. In basic, unMODded SEIV (v1.49), moons aren't vanishingly rare. I'd say any planet has about a 50/50 chance to have one or more moons. Ergo, a sector has only a 50/50 chance of having only one world.

IMO if it had beenintended that only one such facility would be effective per sector, then it would have been designed as such, and stated as such.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, neither you nor I can attest to the intent of the program, without either (a) proving that one or the other of us is/was, in fact, one fo the programmers responsible for producing SEIV or SEIV/Gold ... or (b) via/supported by direct testimony fromsomeone who WAS a programmer for SEIV or SEIV/Gold.

So I'm sorry, you cannot legitimately state as if it were fact, that it was or was not the "intent" of the facilities to work, or not work, when stacked in a multiple-world sector.

(edit for UBBcode error, oops)

[ July 11, 2002, 05:21: Message edited by: Pax ]

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

Actually, moons are equally rare in both the Standard and Gold Versions of SE4. The actually entries haven't changed...that's why you always get that huge planet with two moons with the same number of planet systems etc...

I recommend trying Fyron's Quad Mod...it adds more systemtypes and moons...if you like that kind of thing.

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

It all boils down to what's fair, in the end -- taking advantage of that oversight is definitely unfair, in my opinion. Shard cannons and shield depleters don't convey an unfair advantage, since you spent all of the work to research them and everything, so you have every right to stick them on the same ship.

Putting multiple training facilities in a single location, on the other hand, requires no real in-game resources -- it's a trick masterminded by a player. You didn't earn that ability to build multiple things in the same sector; you discovered it out-of-character, then manipulated it to your whims.

I can't say that I speak for Aaron, but isn't this common sense? The whole ploy is a lot like Microsoft, in a way -- if they find a convenient little loophole that allows them to defeat their competitors, it might be legal, but they're still a tyrant.


In any case, being a newbie around here, I doubt anyone will take me very seriously, so I'll withdraw from this argument before I start getting pithy and annoyed. ;-P

Re: Bug or Feature: Multiple Ship Training Facilities
 

In any case, being a newbie around here, I doubt anyone will take me very seriously, so I'll withdraw from this argument before I start getting pithy and annoyed. ;-P

It matters not if you are a newbie. Your words are as valid as anyone else's (except maybe Aaron Hall himself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).