Proportions 2.3 released
 

At long Last, Proportions 2.3 is now available at The Proportions web page. I spent a lot of time on it this weekend and I think the AI is really shaping up. I think I could spend a month full-time tweaking and testing etc. I think most of the AI's are generally doing reasonable things now... or at least, are usually doing better with Proportions than the default AI's do in the default set. I'm sure there are exceptions - let me know what didn't work out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Changes in Version 2.3:

----------------------
Gameplay - Facilities:
----------------------
* Added new large-scale intensive Versions of standard facilities
(mineral miners, radioactives extractors, and research centers).
There are two stages - complexes produce twice as much as a
standard facility, and megaplexes produce three times as much
as standard, but they cost considerably more than that to build,
or even to upgrade to, so there is a major trade-off between
intensive development and rapid development. This allows more
advanced development in a specific type of production, without
necessarily using massive amounts of colony world space. These
require research in Industry (and Computers, for research facs).
* Similarly, added a new tech area and facilities for Agrarian
Colonization. These are cultural facilities that are like the
existing settlement through cultural center, but are much less
industrialized and so mainly produce a lot of organic resources.
These provide a way to specialize in organic production on an
intensive scale, without necessarily having a massive planet.
* Increased ability of Psychic Intelligence Centers somewhat.
* Building Distribution Centers and Resupply Bases (instead of the
smaller Space Ports and Resupply Depots) was slowing down the AI
more than helping it, so I removed the AI hints to build these.
* Changed family of Organic Generation Facilities to separate them from
Organics Farms for upgrade and visibility purposes.
* Added new tech area "Colonial Development" which is extremely cheap
but allows more control of urban colony development for the AI and
players like Oleg who actually use the automatic "Upgrade Facilities"
command.
* 2.2 had accidentally started creating new games' homeworlds with an
extra Cultural Center in place of the Resupply Depot. Added a new
Resupply Base facility, just to add some variety while solving this
problem.
* Extended Massive Planetary Shielding to tech level 5, with nine
varieties of Massive Planetary Shield Generator, available with
different levels of research in M.P.S., Shields, Construction, and
Physics.
* Also added twelve varieties of Planetary Shield Network facilities
to the non-ancient tech tree (they require research in Shields and
Construction).
* Added facilities that combine Space Ports with Resupply Depots,
and with cities.
-----------------
Gameplay - Other:
-----------------
* Changed engine limits of medium and large drones so they can keep up
with small drones.
* Replaced previous drone launchers with new Versions that include enough
cargo space to carry one drone of their tech level, but are larger.
* Added new basic Defense Cannon available before Point Defense is
researched.
* Removed the actual storage from Space Yard components, but the
ability remains, so they can still be used on transport hulls, but
space yard bases will not automatically have cargo room.
* Added new Secondary Fire Control component, which allows multiplex
tracking 2 without Combat Support, but costs 50% more. This replaces
the 2.1 ECM IIIc component, which probably no one ever used. The
main purpose of this, however, is to ensure that the electronic
warfare components are separated into maximized and miniaturized
Versions for purposes of "show latest" and upgrades - before this,
if an empire had not researched any intervening sensor component
types, then sensors would still upgrade to miniaturized Versions.
* Removed possibility of empires starting in trinary systems, and
removed complete planets from trinary systems.
* Added Formations file from TDM mod pack. Thanks very much to Daynarr
Master Belisarius for their work and permission to include it with
this mod.
* Added short-ranged Versions of the Allegiance Subverters and Massive
ancient weapons, because their low rate-of-fire meant the tactical
AI would often waste their few shots at long range where they would
often miss.
* Removed optionality of "Starliner Modules" tech area, in order to
have it appear in pre-existing games upgrading to 2.3.
* Increased cost of unmothballing ships from 20% to 80%.
* Added new default system type "Low-Gravity Tri-Polar", like Tri-Polar
but without system types that move ships. In games with AI empires,
they will be helped by this.
---------
Cosmetic:
---------
* When upgrading a design, supply niches and compartments were changing
to other minelayers and fighter bays - fixed.
* Corrected abbreviation for Large weapon platform and base mounts.
* Added durability to description of cultural facility abilities.
* Changed weapon family of Self-Defense Cannons to distinguish them
from Point-Defense Cannons.
---
AI:
---
* Got the AI to use PD Cannon instead of using PD Beams (the trick was
to list their tech requirements, so the design minister thinks they
are the most advanced ones, though the actual requirement remains the
same).
* Gave the AI a hint to build racial Organic Generators instead of
farm facilities.
* Added a bogus ability tag "Component Destroyed On Use" to Cultural
facilities smaller that Cultural Centers, for AI hints.
* Added a bogus ability tag "Planet - Change Ground Defense" to some
ECM components so AI can design ships that use efficient ECM and not
load illegal extra engines.
* Added a bogus ability tag "Ancient Ruins" to some combat sensor
components so AI can be told not to use Fire Control Centers on all
bases and weapon platforms.
* Increased threshold values for Mega Evil Empire status.
* Rebuilt Xi'Chung AI.
* Tweaked Terran AI.
* Adjusted Norak AI.
* Overhauled default AI's.
* Added Abbidon AI made for Proportions by John Sullivan.
* Added AI's made for Proportions by Oleg Fedorov for the 3rd party
ship sets Pequeninos, Nostropholo, and Soul Hunters. (These are
available in separate downloads, since the graphics files are large.)
* Adapted John's Abbidon AI for use by Cue Cappa.
* Adapted Oleg's Nostropholo AI for use by Chryslonites.
* Adapted Oleg's Pequeninos AI for use by Drushocka.
* Added hints for AI to use small ECM and Combat Sensors instead
of adding extra engines to try to improve combat modifiers.
* Changed Small Meson BLaster weapon family number to avoid mixing
up the AI (was same as Light Missile System - thanks, Oleg).
* Changed AI back to building small fast space ports and resupply
depots, instead of deluxe Versions that take longer to build. This
involved adding a new tech area for large support facilities.
* Re-worked all of the remaining standard and neutral AI's, more or
less. They now work much better.

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

Whoohoo!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

Thanks a lot ,PvK.

How about this:
"* Increased cost of unmothballing ships from 20% to 80%."

dusting off the captains chair is almost as costly as building a complete new ship http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Rollo

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, it may sound excessive but it is a good think to do, because the unorthodox colony building in Proportions changes the cost ballance between ship building and ship maintanance very dramaticaly.

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

Nifty. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

BTW: How did you create those designcreation.txt file entries for desired/maximum speed? Do you have a conVersion program, or did you do it the hard way and type each entry in one by one?

(Wondering since I've been thinking of ways to include a system similar to what you have in my games. Modding all the race's designcreation.txt files is the only thing stopping me right now.) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ July 08, 2002, 13:44: Message edited by: Sinapus ]

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, it may sound excessive but it is a good think to do, because the unorthodox colony building in Proportions changes the cost ballance between ship building and ship maintanance very dramaticaly.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pardon me? surely that means that the cost of ships should be changed, not the cost of refitting them?

But overall - Thanks, PvK!

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

No, the problem is that you start with very high income (your homeworld) but it does not increase for awhile (untill you develop several colonies).
At the same time, you can build hundreds of ships. Very soon the maintance cost will eat up all your income. Obvious solution is of course to mothball fleets till the war. Raising the shipcost alone will not help - it will make early game very slow and tedious and will only delay the moment when mothballing becomes a must.

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

My mistake - I saw 'unmothball' and read 'refit' for some reason http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I see exactly what you mean - and I'm doing just that in my current game.

Steve.

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">More importantly, does it work? I've not been able to get the AI to respect 'desired speed' when engines ae given more than one standard movement and I don't know of anyone else who has either.

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

"* Removed the actual storage from Space Yard components, but the
ability remains, so they can still be used on transport hulls, but
space yard bases will not automatically have cargo room."

What happens if you upgrade to 2.3 if the bases have cargo in them?

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

I'm in the process of downloading the mod now. Do I need to download the patch also, or is that for those who have Version 2.2?

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

The patch is only necessary if you want to upgrade 2.2 to 2.3. If you are doing a fresh install of 2.3, you don't need the patch.

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You don't need the patch if you have the full 2.3.

The patch upgrades any Version of Proportions (including the Version on the Gold CD) to 2.3.

If you want the three new AI/races Oleg made, you will need to download from the top link on the page, which is the full 2.3 and those AI/race files.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Existing games which have ship yard bases and ships will have their cargo capacity go down by 80kT. If they are carrying cargo in excess of their new limit, it will still be on the ship until it unloads. It just means they won't be able to re-load (as much, or in some cases, any) once they drop it off.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">More importantly, does it work? I've not been able to get the AI to respect 'desired speed' when engines ae given more than one standard movement and I don't know of anyone else who has either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, it does work. All or almost all of the AI's designs, for all AI's, even Neutrals, now build with correct numbers of engines, and even mix high-output engines with efficient engines to achieve different tradeoffs in speed versus range and cost.

The bad news is it is essentially all done by hand-tweaking, and required multiple entries for different sizes of the same design type. This is one of the main reasons why it has taken so much work to create decent AI's for Proportions.

The technique is to use the Max Speed line to specify the desired number of normal engines - the AI obeys.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

Oleg's explanation is exactly correct. Mothballing a large fleet is still a valid and worthwhile tactic in Proportions, but at least now it has a more relevant cost. I had been considering increasing it but was spurred by a suggestion from John Sullivan, who has been doing extensive LAN testing and AI development for Proportions. He suggested a minimum of 100% to unmothball. I thought I'd try 80% and see if anyone balked or found fault.

Also, consider that the default 20% is the same as one turn's maintenance for a non-mothballed ship - essentially you would always save a bundle by mothballing.

I think the comparison to new construction cost is reasonable. Manufacturing a new item can often be cheaper than restoring an old one. Compared to the cost of maintaining a ship turn after turn, it is a major savings, especially considering the pace and economics in Proportions.

Do some strategic math and thinking and stew on it, and as with everything, let me know if you have any suggestions.

PvK

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

PvK, This,#2.3, is truly an awesome peice of work. Thanks again.

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, it does work. All or almost all of the AI's designs, for all AI's, even Neutrals, now build with correct numbers of engines, and even mix high-output engines with efficient engines to achieve different tradeoffs in speed versus range and cost.

The bad news is it is essentially all done by hand-tweaking, and required multiple entries for different sizes of the same design type. This is one of the main reasons why it has taken so much work to create decent AI's for Proportions.

The technique is to use the Max Speed line to specify the desired number of normal engines - the AI obeys.

PvK</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Looking at the design files, all I see is '500' as the desired speed for every single design. If the limit is 255, how does this work?

Have you tried assiging a 'Majority Component ability' of Standard Ship Movement?

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

I disagree with the exuberant mothball cost. It should be more than 20% yes, but less than 50%.

To unmothball a ship, it just requires some maintenance and recalibration of systems. Remember that unmothballing a ship does not update it technologically.

If you take in a refit at a maximum 50% of the ships orignal cost than that gives up to 100% to unmothball the ship and update it to most current tech. That seems reasonable doesn't it?

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, it does work. All or almost all of the AI's designs, for all AI's, even Neutrals, now build with correct numbers of engines, and even mix high-output engines with efficient engines to achieve different tradeoffs in speed versus range and cost.

The bad news is it is essentially all done by hand-tweaking, and required multiple entries for different sizes of the same design type. This is one of the main reasons why it has taken so much work to create decent AI's for Proportions.

The technique is to use the Max Speed line to specify the desired number of normal engines - the AI obeys.

PvK</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Looking at the design files, all I see is '500' as the desired speed for every single design. If the limit is 255, how does this work?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, I mis-remembered. I think the "Desired Speed" value is semi-obsolete. I only ever set it to 254. If you see 500, it's probably one of John's or Oleg's. However I don't think that one does anything as long as it's high. The "Minimum Speed" is the important one. For example:

Minimum Speed := 8
Desired Speed := 254

This gets the AI to put 8 engines of the type it considers best on a ship design.

Quote:

Have you tried assiging a 'Majority Component ability' of Standard Ship Movement?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No I haven't. I bet it would work ok, but I don't see why it would be better than using the Abilities section below, and since the Maj Component section is the only one that works for main weapons, and you only get that and the 2ndary one to specify those, I just use the Misc Abilities for other engine specs. For example, in Proportions specifying Misc abilities of "Warp Point - Turbulence" will get the AI to add some efficient engines, and "Extra Movement Generation" will get Gravitic Drives. You do need to reduce the "Minimum Speed" by the same amount, or the AI will cheat by violating the limits of a hull's specified design.

PvK

Re: Proportions 2.3 released
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My interpretation of mothballing is a bit different in at least a couple of ways:

1) A mothballed ship has no crew. The old crew has been reassigned or laid off, so an entire new crew has to be raised and trained. In a space age society, superlatively-trained crew may be a major part of the cost of a ship.

2) The initial cost of a ship is only a down payment. I don't think a ship would necessarily start falling apart to the tune of 20% per month immediately after comission. So, consider the actual cost of fielding a ship is the build cost plus a year of maintenance fees, which is typically 100% + 10 x 20% = 300% the nominal cost of a ship.
If one builds a ship and immediately mothball it, the cost is only 100%. I would think this represents not providing a crew, and maybe not really finishing the design.

Other considerations:

In Proportions, empires don't just have 0-50k of resources reserve - an empire at peace usually has hundreds of thousands of resources in reserve. So it's not like the standard game, where the full price of a squadron of good ships could immediately deplete an empire's reserves. At 20% unmothball cost, in fact, it becomes barely noticeable to unmothball an entire armada. At 80-100% it's still not very much, but at least it's a noticeable dent, and not just the equivalent of a single turn's maintenance.

20% is just like one turn's maintenance for an average empire - it's like no cost at all. So without a high unmothball cost, there isn't even any noticable cost (compared to maintenance costs) of pre-building a massive armada and mothballing it.

I.e., 80% sounds like a lot until I consider that the purchase price is itself a drop in the bucket. Maintenance cost is usually 20% per turn, and it can take 10 turns to move to a training facility and train up, several turns to repair retrofitted components, several turns to even get to a first battle, etc.

PvK