Best 4 X Game To Date
 

Simply vote or comment on what you feel is the best 4x game todate.

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

:: Looks at Atrocities, Wonders where he is coming from ::

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

You think maybe this might get a little biased? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

We have a lot of new people here, and I just wanted to gauge what people thought.

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

Strange Adventures in Infinite Space is currently #2 for me.

If you like SE4 Tactical Combat, and micromanaging very small (1-3 ships in the demo) fleets, or are just looking for quick jolts of Space Exploring Action, grab the demo, and then try my little mod for it. (zip, 31kb)
It seems to me that this game is the mathematical complement to SE4; 20 minute games, micromanaging tiny fleets, searching for treasures to bring home.

Combat gets played out in realtime, but you can pause whenever you want to give new orders and inspect all the ships. There is also a double-speed option, which I use fairly often.
Of course, combat isn't the priority, but when the aliens are guarding ruins technology, you have to make a choice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 11, 2002, 03:38: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

Wow that's a stacked voting scheme. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

Ah, someone has betrayed us all and voted for a non-SE4 title!

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

I voted "other".

First off, I kind of disqualified Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri / Alien Crossfire -- it's SF themed, but not truly a Space 4X game per se -- or it would have won out, hands down.

...

So instead, IMO it's currently a tie between SE4 (v1.49 only so far, ordering SE4/Gold soon!) ... and MOO2. Stars! comes in a close second to that tie. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I won't vote clearly for SE4 just yet, since it's (for me) still got hte blush of newness on it, and I mgiht tire of the sheer length of an SE4 game in the next year or so.

MOO2 (barring current video card conflicts) regularly returns to my HD for a month or three at a time.

SMAC/SMAX (the SF-but-not-space game I mentioned above) makes repeated visits to my HD, sometimes staying resident for a year or more. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Hopefully, SE4 will do likewise, having a space essentially reserved for it on the HD near-perpetually.

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

Suicide Junkie haven't seen you around in quite some time. Glad you posted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

OMG! someone actually posted a vote for "what is 4X" Please tell me you were just joking....

[ July 11, 2002, 06:20: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

Ah, someone has betrayed us all and voted for a non-SE4 title!

I was the first to do that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

i almost voted 'other' for vga planets, but while that was a more detailed game with many vastly superior features, it lacked a certain playability. and when it comes down to it, ive been playing this cursed se4 thing for about two years now, and posting on this forum to boot. so se4 got my vote.

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

Yes sorry, I did.

Allthough SeIV is beter than any game in the list, I still have a weak spot for MOO.

Sparhawk

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

I used to play a totally far out 4X game called Ultimate Universe. I d/l'd it again recently but it will not work on XP because XP does not have the dos kernel, bummer. It was an interesting game concept.

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I voted for MOO2. I would vote for SEIV if they fixed the diplomacy problem. What I mean is that I can't defend my systems against colonization by my "allies", except by declaring war on them and bLasting the squatters, which makes it not worthwhile to ever agree to any treaty about Non-Intercourse (at which level your minefields still work and you can still forcibly evict squatters). If a future patch changes things so that the AI respects borders and could not, if it has a treaty with you higher than Non-Intercourse, claim any system you have already claimed (i.e. not reclaim a system it agreed to "give" you a couple turns later) then I would vote for SEIV in such a poll. As it is, though, the inability to use the higher diplomatic functions kills a lot of the fun for me.

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

Barnacle Bill, play on PBW. Human diplomacy is much more fun than AI diplomacy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

You've got to be kidding?!?

I've sat on the fence for about a year and finally ordered this game early this morning, and now I find out that the diplomacy options in the AI (such as not respecting boarders via colonization of your own planets) don't work??

Cripse, there was a similar problem with Civilization 2 in which allies still woulnd't pull settlers out of your territories after telling the ally (via diplomacy) to get out/off that I recall never being fixed... this was a frustratingly near game killing bug, one that I thought would have been fixed by now with so many patches to this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I came here to ask on the board which Version of SE 4 Gold came with the game, but man, this is a bummer to read.

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

You haven't been reading very long if you didn't realize that the AI was lame. It's the #1 complaint and the #1 topic of discussion among modders.

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You are right, I have not spent much time reading on this board... I have visted it from time to time, but never looked too closely at it. My mistake obviously. I still have hopes that it is a good game, but I really thought the A.I. would have surpassed that of Deadlock 2. From what I'm reading now, it appears that the A.I. may be able to put up a better fight, but man, why not just remove the non-functioning diplomacy options from vs. AI games? Or is that not possible?

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It called AI Diarria. Look at it this way, you can use their colonies as target practice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

"why not just remove the non-functioning diplomacy options from vs. AI games?"

What about multiple humans vs AIs?
What if a human sets their empire to full AI control for a while?

What if it really was a human player reading your Messages, and ignoring you in the same way?

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The AI is not good at diplomacy, but if you play in a medium or small map with lots of enemies you'll get into conflict quickly and get a hell of a fight. In large-scale games the AI seems to get confused and becomes really lame. Ah, well. There's always PBW...

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

Cool Baron, thanks for the tip.
I will have to try my first games on a small map... probably for the best any ways due to the learning curve that I am anticipating for this game.

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I don't have the time for playing against humans. I have two kids & a wife who is NOT supportive of this hobby, so I get in a turn or two whenever the coast is clear. For me, AI opponents are the only kind there are.

It is not necessarily that "the AI is bad at diplomacy". It is that the AI does not respect agreements and the rules of the game do not enforce it. What I mean by the later is, remember in Civ2 if you tried to move a combat unit into the city radius of another civ with which you were at peace and it would prompt you that doing so would break the treaty & start a war? That right there would solve the problem.

A more detailed resolution would look like:

1) If you are at war or in that first contact "no treaty" status with another race, any proposed deal that includes a treaty must address any conflicting system claims. The possibilities for that would be: (a) mine, (b) yours, (c) share [colonization/remote mining of any remaining unused body being "first come, first served"], (d) mine but you can pass through, (e) yours but I can pass through. Under Non-Intercourse, only (a) & (b) would be allowed. AI should never agree to a deal that leaves one or more of its systems cut off from the rest (i.e. with no path through systems it is allowed to enter).

2) "Giving" a system automatically transfers ownership of all colonies and anything else in the system except ships with at least one functional engine. Ships in a system which is "given" do not change ownership but automatically set movement orders to the nearest system retained (or shared) by their owner. Such orders cannot be changed until complete.

3) Once a treaty is in place between two races, if either attempts to claim a system already claimed by the other, it gets prompted with a message "Are you sure? This will break the treaty and declare war!". The AI would do this only if it really wanted to attack the other side.

4) Once the treaty is in place, if one party even enters a system belonging totally to the other, or attempts to colonize/remote mine in a system belonging to the other but through which it has right of passage, it gets prompted with a message "Are you sure? This will break the treaty and declare war!". The AI would do this only if it really wanted to attack the other side.

5) Individual deals to alter the status of a particular system would be allowed later.

6) Two levels of military alliance. "Mutual Defense Pact" (the lower level) obligates the two parties to go to war against any third party which attacks the other (if your ally is the aggressor, there is no obligation). "Military Alliance" (the higher level) grants each party right of passage and refueling rights in all the systems of the other, even while at peace.

7) Under Protectorate or Subjugation, the dominant partner automatically has right of passage in all of the weaker race's systems. Under Subjugation, the stonger additionally automatically gets refueling rights at the refueling depots of the weaker. Under both, the weaker is automatically at war with any third party that the stronger is at war with (no matter who is the aggressor), and any declaration of war against the weaker by a third party is automatically a declaration of war against the stronger (AI third parties should take this into account).

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

Barnacle, I totally agree with your ideas for AI diplomacy. They would be great if they could be implemented.

However I am curious sbout your assertion that single player is your only option since you are limited to only a turn now and then. It seems to me that would make you more likely to play against humans, not less likely.

The vast majority of PBEM and PBW games are exactly that, a turn now and then. Very few even attempt to play more than one turn a day, and 48 hour games are almost as common as 24 hour ones.

I am in the same siutaion as you in that I cannot sit for hours on end playing SEIV because of work and familiy responsibilities. But for me this limitation results in an inabilty to play long single player games against the AI. It doesn't typically interfere with the sporadic once a day or less nature of the average mulitplayer game.

Geoschmo

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

In regards to AI Diplomacy, is it possible thru modding (as everyone knows I'm not one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) could you mod the AI races that if you have a treaty with them and either break or bend it or colonize a planet in one of their systems or one which they are currently starting to colonize, that not only their attitude toward you takes a very negative hit towards you but that it increases the anger towards you which increases the % or whatever it is that triggers war with you? Maybe something similiar in affect as Mega Evil, but instead of basing it on the number of planets, colonies, shps, pop, etc its based on a negative point/percentage that comes into play by a human player such as stated above, that war would break out until such actions are eliminated or a peace treaty is made with the AI making demands, such as, you evacuating the system/planet in question, giving them the planets you own in that system, new treaties, etc, could be Called Diplmatic Mega Evil or something on that order??? this way you would have 2 Mega Evil triggers instead of one, One in the Diplomatic area and the other like it currently is, reaching either one would trigger war...

I hope I explained it right the way I meant

PS. Geo, If you live close to me, your more then welcome to play hotseat with us. We play every Sunday (except for mitigating circumstances) from around 7p - 10;30 or 11p.
your more then welcome or anyone else who would like to play hotseat....

just some ideas mac

[ July 12, 2002, 17:15: Message edited by: mac5732 ]

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can't guarantee I could get to it every 48 hours. It is more more like time randomly available to play several turns in a row then no time to look at it again for days, sometimes a week or more.

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, they get mad if you colonize in a system they claim just fine. The problem is that they will colonize in a system that you claim, and if you make a deal resolving a conflict in claims by getting the to agree to "give" you a system, two turns or so later they will claim it again. The only way to prevent them from colonizing in your systems is by force, which you can't use if you have a treaty higher than Non-Intercourse (you can't shoot them, your mines don't trigger on them). So, if you make any treaty higher than Non-Intercourse, in a just few turns you will find in necessary to break that treaty yourself in order to shoot trespassers. So, I just never agree to such treaties.

The short of it is that I want THEM to have to break the treaty BEFORE they trespass, and to weigh the consequences of that appropriately. If you are week or they are hemmed in with noplace else to expland, they should go for it. If neither of those conditions apply, they should not trespass.

A simple alternative that might be OK is if I could shoot trespassers despite having a treaty with them, and set my minefields individually to trigger on allies. Then maybe if they trespass and I shoot they would get mad and cancel the treaty, but it would be their choice (and they should not get as made if you shoot them inside a system you claim).

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

B Bill, this also should include, even if you don't have a treaty, one/more ships come into your system, you attack and destroy their shp, they don't immediatley/shortly declare war on you, I've had games where I kept destroying their ships but it took forever to get them to declare war. I would think if you attack and destroy their ships, this should trigger something other then eventual change in their attitude....

What about the Diplomatic Mega Evil Trigger??

just some ideas mac

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The problem for me is not how they react to getting their ships shot, but the fact that if I ally with them they will colonize in my systems, forcing me to cancel the treaty so as to be allowed to shoot them, so that all treaties above Non-Intercourse are worthless because I can't use them.

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

The problem of an AI you have a treaty with colonizing your planets caused me to use this trick to prevent colonization: I use samll satellites to reserve a planet. Just load a few on a scout and when you see a really good planet then lay a sat on it. This seems to keep the computer AI from choosing it to settle. Ally or enemy.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cool...I'll have to test that.

Still, diplomacy should include recognition of claims, resolution of claim conflicts, and no colonizing in a system you have recognized as claimed by somebody else without a DoW.

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http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif REACH FOR THE STARS!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Without a doubt is my all-time favorite, as I love that game.

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A space game that really got me hooked many years ago was an old SSI game called Imperium Galactum, (not in anyway like the one out currently with similiar name) I loved that game, played it on my old Atair 128, wore it out to where I had to order another copy from SSI...

In regards to Diplomacy/systems/planets/ possibly what we need is a Diplomatic trigger which would be similiar in affect to Mega Evil, by doing certain things this would trigger a war between the parties involved. example only,
you colonize a planet in a system the AI claims, after several nasty correspondence, if nothing changes, the trigger kicks in and AI declares war to fight over the planet/s/system/s. or something along this line....

just some ideas mac

[ July 17, 2002, 18:31: Message edited by: mac5732 ]

Re: Best 4 X Game To Date
 

Hmmm, that diplomatic trigger thing could be an interesting twist for a multiplayer game. You could assign certain planets that are "holy lands" or whatever you want to call them to each player. They can or cannot reveal these to the other players, depending on the type of game you want. Then you play normally, but if somone colonizes one of your trigger planets you have to declare war on them regardless of the other game circumstances.

Would have to be a role play game of course, but could spice things up a bit. Kind of a reverse of the Paranoia game.

Geoschmo