Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

Mines are a sore subject for many people. There is much disagreement over them whether they are too hard or too easy. Everybody has their pet idea for changes to make them better. I have one I haven't heard anyone propose before and wanted to get some opinions on it.

First of all, let me tell you that the next patch will address the mine bug that allows you to get past the 100 mines per sector limit. I am not a big fan of the 100 mines per sector limit, I think it is too arbitrary. But it is there, and since it is there I have been persuaded that it not a good thing for it to be bypassed. Hopefully the fix in the next patch will correct it so that it cannot.

My biggest problem with the 100 mine limit is that it severly marginalizes mines. They are good for a while, but after not to long the other side gets enough minesweepers to handle 100 mines (not really difficult at all), and then they become useless.

So my suggestion is, leave the 100 mine limit per sector in place, but make the minesweeper component be destroyed in the process of detonating the mines. Not the minesweeping ship itself, just the sweeper component.

This would make the mines more useful in that they wouldn't be able to stop a marauding fleet, but they would be able to slow it down. The attacker would be forced to wait a few turns and repair the damage to the sweepers before moving on to the next planet, or keep several repair ships in the fleet, enough to repair all the sweeper comps as they are used up. And no more tearing through an entire system in one turn glasssing all the planets on the fly, unless you have sweepering capacity for several hundred mines in the fleet.

Comments?

Geoschmo

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

"So my suggestion is, leave the 100 mine limit per sector in place, but make the minesweeper component be destroyed in the process of detonating the mines. Not the minesweeping ship itself, just the sweeper component"

An interesting idea, not sure if I am totally sold on it but it does sound promising. I too believe that mines are massively powerful at first, then (like drones and fighters) become almost useless mid-late game (and med/large mines are just useless in themselves).

I just have one 'part' idea to add to your own. How about the Minesweeper component having a 'damage capacity' that goes up with level. ie, level 1 sweepers can destroy 'X'damage amount of mines and level 2 can 'soak' that plus a little more before they become a 'destroyed component'. I guess this would make the sweeper some sort of 'armor' that only mines hit first and that doesn't count toward ship strength at all. That and leave it moddable of course so we can make 'budget' minesweepers etc (or use Mounts to differ the damage etc.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

That and it is my firm belief that level 1 minesweepers should be 20kt not 30kt in size. Just like shields level 1 is 30kt and then goes up to 40.

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

While it would be nice to have 'destroyed on use' work in combat so you could have super-powerful weapons that can only fire once and then must be rebuilt, I don't see how wiping out minesweepers solves any of the problems with mines. If anything it would make the situation worse. The 'all or nothing' way that both mines and sweepers work is the problem. We need some genuine variability, a real chance to HIT OR MISS for both. Nothing else can substitute for this.

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

Destroyed on use is a very good idea, although I don't know if it would be sufficient on its own.

If it were combined with the "Chance to Miss", "Not all mines attack", or some of the other suggestions, it would be excellent.

It definitely should be moddable though, so you prefer, you could have non-destructive sweepers, 0% chance to miss, and 100% of the mines attacking every time.

As a stand-alone change, it would probably be quite easy to handle in terms of mods. There is already a destroyed on use ability, so it just has to be implemented as an optional ability for sweepers.

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

I dunno, I like mines but think the SEIVG mines are far too destructive.

First thing I would do is reduce their attack power so that they are more likely to cripple ships than blow them apart..

Secondly, I would remove the 100 mines per sector limit as my view is that if you want to waste the resources, do what you want

Thirdly, I would make mines detectable on a random chance by certain types of scanner

Fourthly I would prefer the active mine sweeping component to be PDC rather than a specific mine sweeper... it makes sense if you think about it, mines seem to be small "thingies" that need to get close to attack ships, PDC are designed to shoot at small "thingies" designed to get close to attack ships.. it would add a considerable amount of tactical flexibility to fleet composition

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

Have you considered the High Tech Cost game?
I'm playing one now on PBW. It takes a lot of LCs with minesweeper 2 to clear 100 mines. It takes a lot of research to get to minesweeper 5.

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

All of those are moddable, Except for the sensors/cloaking bit.

However, Cannon Fodder ships work well as a replacement. Launch a small probe (Escort, or a drone or fighter depending on settings.txt), and see if there are mines there.

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess that depends on your definition of a lot. I don't consider 5 LC's to be a lot.

Geo

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

&gt;Thirdly, I would make mines detectable on a random chance by certain types of scanner

I doubt you can do a "random chance" thing but "In My Mod" &lt;everybody runs away screaming http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif &gt; the mines do not have built-in cloaking ability - you have to put "Mine Stealth" components on them which do not require normal cloaking tech but instead require mine tech. And there is an added sensor, the Tachyon Sensor IV, which can detect ALL cloaked things, but it is rather expensive to research and build.

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

Have you tested whether cloaking on mines is really activated when they are deployed? I've been meaning to test this because it didn't work when I tried it a long time ago. If it works now that's great.

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

Causing damage to the sweeping components seems like a patch to me. I dont like it.

I think that larger mines should be harder to sweep. Right now there is little incentive to use mines other than small because they get sweeped just as easily. If larger mines were more resistant to sweeping, then they would be more widely used and it would somewhat address the 100 unit limit.

Of course, I think that the arbitrary 100 mine limit in a sector should also be removed. If I want 100+ mines, I should be able to do it.

Let mines use the small unit armor components to make mines more resistant to sweeping.

Lastly, a question. If a sweeper does not completely sweep a minefield, can it be destroyed by the mines? If so, this should be changed. A sweeper should be able to spend many turns sweeping a particular minefield and not get hurt by it. Think of it as the sweeper clearing a path into the minefield as it moves into the sector.

edit: grammar.

[ July 11, 2002, 22:20: Message edited by: Hank ]

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

"Have you tested whether cloaking on mines is really activated when they are deployed? "

Works on fighters.. haven't tested mines in a while. (BTW the BUTTON doesn't do anything for fighters; they end up always cloaked)

Phoenix-D

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

Oh, that means something has been changed then. I used to be able to cloak and uncloak fighters with stealth armor. Hmm. Odd, but maybe that's what was required for mines to use their cloaks?

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can change it in settings.txt if you want. What I would like to see the mines per sector limit made into a game setting instead of being in the settings.txt file. That way you could change it without having to use a mod.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would only support this if the other ships in the fleet with the sweeper get bLasted. Otherwise what's the point? All you would need is one sweeper regardless of the size of the minefield.

Geoschmo

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

[quote]Originally posted by geoschmo:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Hank:

Quote:

Lastly, a question. If a sweeper does not completely sweep a minefield, can it be destroyed by the mines? If so, this should be changed. A sweeper should be able to spend many turns sweeping a particular minefield and not get hurt by it. Think of it as the sweeper clearing a path into the minefield as it moves into the sector.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would only support this if the other ships in the fleet with the sweeper get bLasted. Otherwise what's the point? All you would need is one sweeper regardless of the size of the minefield.

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh I totally agree there. Only a vessel with a minesweeping component would be able to hang out in a minefield. Additionally the minesweeping ship would not be able to leave the minefield until it was completely swept. That way you avoid having every ship add a minesweeping component and ignoring the field entirely.

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

My 2 cents worth.

1. Minesweeping should be somewhat dangerous. So the sweeper should not have a 100% chance of killing the mine

2. Minesweeping is time consuming so perhaps a fleet should use several movement points to sweep a field.

3. Provide many more levels of mine and mine swwep tech and make it so that low level sweepers cannot dectec high level mines.

4. Remove the minefields 100% hit chance against ships. Surely a small ship could get lucky and bypass a mine field. Space is big, really big

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

how about mine detect components, and components on mines called mine cloaks???

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

lots of things 'would be nice' but there are only a couple things that can be modded. if i remember, the max mines per sector is moddable via settings.txt

mines could be made far more useful if there was a higher limit. say 1000.

mines could be ballanced in their effectiveness if there were mine detecting sensors. this can be done by using a specific sensor type for mines, say Gravetic. this could also add another layer of depth to the game by creating a tech race for mine cloaking and mine sensors. small Groups of visible mines could lure fleets into vast fields of cloaked mines.

regarding PDC mine sweeping, the Devnull Mod does this. its easy to incorporate into any mod.

regarding destructable sweepers, good idea, does it work?

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

A long time ago, in many galaxies far, far away (sorry, I just couldn't resist)...

I used to play a game called SpaceMerchant, which was based on the old TradeWars 2002 BBS game. The way that game eventually implemented mines could, IMHO, be adapted to SEIV.

SpaceMerchant had a map system of usually many "galaxies", each galaxy a square of sectors that wrapped; think a system map in SEIV, where if you were in the top right corner, and moved right, you'd be in the top left corner. However, you couldn't always move between adjacent sectors, there were paths that had to be used. Galaxies were linked via warps.

So, for each sector, there is a maximum of five entrances/exits. The way SpaceMerchant did mines, the total number in the sector were divided by the number of entrances, and a random modifier was applied. When you moved into a sector, that amount of mines would "attack" you, and a certain percentage would blow up next to you. The effect was: you got a small amount of damage (usually not enough to come close to killing you, unless you were already close anyway), any course you had plotted is erased, you lose three turns in the attack (turns were often very limited, 1 move = -1 turn), you're decloaked.

From there, you had a few options. If you went back from where you came from, nothing else happens (unless some mean person laid mines there while you were in the other sector http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ). If you continue attacking the mines, you face all of them at once (there was a max of 50 in a sector). If you try going through some other exit, you don't move, and it's the same as if you just entered the sector, but, the sector you tried to move to is now the "safe" sector, where you can go without worrying about any other mines in the current sector.

There is a bit more to the mine stuff in that game, but I don't want to explain the entire game, and that gives a general idea of how they work.

That could be modified for SEIV. When ships enter a minefield, 25% have a chance of hitting, and an extra movement point is taken. If the ships withdraw the same way they came, they don't encounter any more mines. A sweeper can stay in the field and attempt to sweep the mines, having a chance of getting all, or none, or anything in between. If ships attempt to exit some other way, 25% of the remaining mines have a chance of hitting, an extra movement point is taken, and they can continue. Ships cloaking are turned off on encountering a minefield (they'll know where you are from the pretty explosions, after all).

Change the sweeper's rating's from "Can sweep X mines" to "Can sweep X warheads", and have them destroyed on use. Moddable, of course, for those who would like their mines to be more/less powerful.

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would only support this if the other ships in the fleet with the sweeper get bLasted. Otherwise what's the point? All you would need is one sweeper regardless of the size of the minefield.

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, perhaps it would work better if no more than ONE mine could hit a ship, for each X kT of mass the ship had (say each 150kT, the size of a single escort)? Makes sense after all; a sector is a big place, 100 mines won't hit a single ship all at once.

That way, you -could- try and "bull" your way through a minefield, especially if your ships were armor-heavy ... but you'll be hurt by the process (especially helpful for when it's a Warp Point and the defender has ships/sats/base(s) present to immediately fire on the now-damaged ships ...).

Now the question is, is that effect hard-coded into the executable, or MODdable ... ?

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

Hard coded.

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

(This would be better as a PM. Sorry.)

[ July 12, 2002, 10:11: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

The 100 mine limit isn't realistic at all. Much better solution would be to allow more mines but make them so that over 100 mine minefields could be seen. And if someone puts more than 200 mines in a sector the mines would collide and explode or maybe some mines would move to another sector.

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be nearly perfect, IMHO. I also feel that mines should have various cloaks and that some sensors can see through certain mine cloaks. Also, (can't recall if someone else mention this) sweepers should do a certain kt worth of damage to a mine field instead of 1 for 1.

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes! This is the point. Mines would be more useful if they didn't hit 100 percent of the time, not less! The purpose of mines is to cause uncertainty. Right now you know that your ships will be completely destroyed if they hit a minefield without sweepers. Or, that they will be completely undamaged if you just include enough sweepers. It would be much better if you would know that your ships probably could get through the minefield at the other side of a WP, but you didn't know how many or how badly damaged the survivors would be. And mine sweepers should have a degree of uncertainty as well. You shouldn't 'know' that a sector is completely free of mines because a sweeper has passed through it once.

[ July 12, 2002, 16:11: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

It just occured to me that a lot of us would be happy if the game just treated minefields the way it currently does damaging warp points. There you have a damage rating, but there is a chance of getting through the warp point undamaged.

If the game could modify this chance based on how many mies are in the field, that would be cool. Then you could try to "bull your way through" and not all your ships would be destroyed. You would get hurt, but not all or nothing like it is now. And some mines would remain, so the minefield would be more usueful, even though it was doing less damage.

Geoschmo

Re: Looking for comments on possible mine suggestion.
 

Has anyone tried putting the Storm damaging sector ability (or warp point dmg) on a mine warhead... ? I guess only the warp point one has the random chance.

Actually, I guess it'd need to be something to put one something called a mine that wasn't a mine, and the component couldn't be put on anything else... so ya, it's back to code change request again.

I agree with the Baron (and have for over a year and a half now): mines should have random moddable chances to go off, to hit, to be detected, and to be swept. Or at least, to go off and to be swept.

I like the idea that mines should take considerable time to sweep, but I don't think the mechanic of destroying the sweeper components sounds right - I'd rather have a random chance that sometimes a minesweeper will get hit by a mine it's trying to sweep, and have the act of minesweeping take time.

PvK

[ July 13, 2002, 03:11: Message edited by: PvK ]