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Proportions Version 2.4 released
Proportions mod Version 2.4 is now available from The Proportions web page.
This is a small but worthwhile correction to a few issues, listed below. ALSO, I discovered a problem with the PATCH Version of 2.3 - it didn't include all of the files needed to upgrade to 2.3, at least for the AI. If you downloaded the PATCH Version of 2.3, you should definitely download and install the "Patch to Version 2.4 from any earlier Version" file (or the complete Version). Version 2.4: * Removed defensive modifier from Efficient Engines to allow upgrades and "show latest only" to work well without stacking modifiers with high-output engines. * Cue Cappa and Abbidon AI reworked by John Sullivan. * Cue Cappa AI was not building space ports even when they had not acquired Natural Merchants - fixed. * Corrected position mistakes in formations Cluster Diamonds and Little Triangles. PvK Edit: P.S. - I also separated Oleg's three extra AI's for Proportions into a separate file, rather than including one "Complete plus extra AI's" Version (as I did for 2.3). These AI's have not changed for 2.4, so you can just download the 0.2MB 2.3->2.4 patch if you got the big 2.3 Version. [ July 13, 2002, 19:54: Message edited by: PvK ] |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
I don't suppose there's a Version of Proportions (even an OLD one) that is compatible with v1.49, is there ... ?
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
it would not be hard to hack, just change the settings.txt to be 1.49 compatable, and remove all references to drones. and go back to the original system types files.
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
My gosh... even a fanatic can't have played a game on 2.3 before this update. This update rate is far faster than even the betas coming out of Malfador. Is it stable now? Can we play some games? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
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Rollo |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Rollo, I crown you 'Space Empires Ultra-fanatic'!!!
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
There is no Proportions for 1.49. There are some important new features in Gold that allow some things that would not be possible in 1.49.
Mainly, MM implemented a couple of requests I had for population - in Gold, you can specify the mass and reproduction frequency of population units. You could rationalize that population represents only skilled specialists and abstract development, but it would have a major effect on gameplay (these two factors combined with the Proportions population effect curve make a world of difference in colonial development rate). Also, the massive amount of work that I, John and Oleg have done to create AI's that can build ship classes with the right number of engines, and bunches of other AI adjustments, would mostly be lost and have to be redone for 1.49. It would be so much work that it makes no sense compared to the price of Gold, and Gold is really worth the cost to upgrade! PvK |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
I am honered http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . It was not a big deal though really. Just a small galaxy. Build a fleet, capture AIs homeworld, done.
Rollo |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
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Yes, I think the AI in 2.4 should play Proportions better than the AI in the standard game plays the standard set... which both is and isn't saying much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I recommend starting a game versus the AI and then finding a PBW game. Humans will always be more interesting, and IMO Proportions gives many more options for humans to be creative in empire design, unit/ship design, colonial development, and maneuver and deployment than the standard game. I do have plans for two more layers of improvement, though. One is to provide an AI that has some cheats to compensate for its inherent weaknesses, and the other is to add some things taking advantage of the new mounts in the impending Gold patch. Both of those changes will require me to break backward compatibility, though. Still, I think 2.4 is pretty polished and should make for interesting games. I'm imagine some people will find bugs from playing it, though. Oh, and there is one issue with Proportions AI and Gold 1.67 that I couldn't fix without breaking backwards compatibility: In Simultaneous Movement games, the AI won't build any colony ships for about four years (40 turns). It seems to be a hard-coded thing under investigation, hopefully to be fixed for the next Gold patch. It does fine in Turn-Based Movement mode. Meanwhile, work-arounds for simultaneous mode include running the first 40 turns without human control, or running the first 40 turns with humans obeying a house rule to not build colony ships, or just give the AI a Low bonus, which should more or less balance it out. PvK |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
All right, what am I doing wrong?
I downloaded the latest patch, installed it, didn't work. Downloaded the latest full Version, installed it, didn't work. I have tried everything, but it still doesn't work. I keep getting this error: "Unknown value "Insert ship type" for entry ## type in record exploration, not connected etc... Anybody else see this? Anybody know why this happens? Am I just an idiot? |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
There is a minor error in the Jraenar general file. The "Race Opt 3 Characteristic" 6 and 7 have 2 instead of 3 in it and it causes an error when reading that file.
Specifically, the part in question is: Race Opt 3 Num Characteristics := 7 Race Opt 3 Characteristic 1 Type := Cunning Race Opt 3 Characteristic 1 Amount := 120 Race Opt 3 Characteristic 2 Type := Defensiveness Race Opt 3 Characteristic 2 Amount := 110 Race Opt 3 Characteristic 3 Type := Intelligence Race Opt 3 Characteristic 3 Amount := 120 Race Opt 3 Characteristic 4 Type := Aggressiveness Race Opt 3 Characteristic 4 Amount := 110 Race Opt 3 Characteristic 5 Type := Physical Strength Race Opt 3 Characteristic 5 Amount := 120 Race Opt 2 Characteristic 6 Type := Political Savvy Race Opt 2 Characteristic 6 Amount := 115 Race Opt 2 Characteristic 7 Type := Maintenance Aptitude Race Opt 2 Characteristic 7 Amount := 110 Race Opt 3 Num Advanced Traits := 0 [ July 14, 2002, 04:00: Message edited by: Sinapus ] |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
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Problem, of course, is that a human player can choose to use them as well, though IMHO one is better off using that facility slot for something like a research center to provide more points to discover other things and eventually get up to Planet Utilization 7-9. My own personal rule is that I'm allowed one planet in my home system to have one of them as a "testbed" and have to wait until I get the appropriate tech to convert other planets. (My initial design actually set the conVersion time for 200 turns, and it works rather well... now to increase the time and see what happens when the AI gets around to researching the appropriate tech. Hopefully it starts upgrading a few worlds here and there....) |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Very strange. It sounds like it might be that your extraction problem didn't extract them to the files to the right place, or something. This is not the same thing that Sinapus pointed out with the Jraenar, which only occurs about once every dozen games.
What Version of SE4 are you running? What is the exact text of the message, and which file is it complaining about? When does the error occur? PvK Quote:
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
That's an interesting idea. Seems like you should be able to mod it if you give the atmospheric converter facility the same family as some other facility that gets built early on. Following several other facilities in Proportions, it could be a combination facility, such as Resupply Depot with Atmospheric Converter, or something. If it shares a family number with a common facility, and has a higher Roman numeral than others, the AI should upgrade to it once it gets the tech. The problem there, however, is it won't be smart enough to realize that it does not need the component, so it will upgrade to them even on correct-atmosphere planets.
Another idea is like what you suggest, but combined with a racial tech area so that only the AI can use them, and then yes, give them a high time period before they take effect. It could probably be advantageous for the AI, but I also wonder at the idea of having all AI converting all their colonies' atmospheres... hmm. PvK Quote:
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
I can't post exactly what it says because the message is extremely long, but here is some of the entries:
Unknown Value "Explorer" for entry 1 Type in record "Exploration" Unknown Value "Attack Destroyer" for entry 3 type in record "Exploration" Unknown Value "Attack Destroyer" for entry 4 type in record "Exploration" It goes on like that, each one appears twice, it is several pages. Do you have any idea what may be causing this? |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
I found the problem.... I had downloaded the patch, just never installed it for some reason.... man, I'm an idiot.
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
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Then facilities.txt (what seems the core of Proportions) refused to load -- at all. I gave up at that point. |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
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I don't know why you're worried about AIs converting all their atmospheres. I know, given the chance and resources and time, as a human I would do so ... no hesitation! Getting a 400% increase in local facilities ... worth it, IMO. Mind in proportions, it might be less of an issue. But still; if humans would convert atmospheres left and right, why not the AI, too? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
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As I expect you realize, it could also be good to balance the AI against humans, because a weakness of the AI is its lack of skill at matching colonists to atmospheres. It can also be harder to do in Proportions because it is so much more difficult to actually transplant an entire population. In Proportions, I think this would be a powerful technique (as it is in the standard game), both because of the added facility slots, and because of the huge increase in planetary capacity on non-domed colonies in Proportions. Non-domed colonies can be made into major fortresses and staging areas in Proportions, given enough time, resources, and/or transports. The economic effects will be relatively less than in the standard game, because each planet only has one queue tied heavily to population, but it could still be important in the long term. What I'm hmm-ing about is that I think I should double-check the research, deployment, and effect times and costs in Proportions. I think it makes sense as a long-term, high-tech, fairly expensive project. I just want to make sure the time and costs are significant enough to make it a strategic decision rather than something easy and powerful enough that anyone who doesn't do it as a high priority will be at a major disadvantage. I think it would be most interesting if there were usually a long period in the early game where this is not ubiquitous, because if it is fairly easy to do, then other interesting game elements will lose importance and interest, such as the added value of naturally-own-atmosphere worlds, and the value of obtaining alien colonists native to other atmosphere types, and the possible decision to build cargo facilities on domed colonies to provide more deployment space for defenses. It may very well actually be fine as is, but I'll want to test and consider. PvK |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
out of curiosity, why are rock/ice/gas colony centers seperate tech areas? they dont do anything unique, as far as i can tell. why not just leave them as one type?
and, is there any plans on including space-yard expansions into future Versions of the mod? perhaps adding spaceyard abilities to higher level cities. maybe they could be part of the arcology, and the arcology could be upgraded to via a foundation facility. Lastly, i presume i can use pieces of this mod in other mods, for my personal enjoyment. if i wanted to upload one of those mods to PBW for multiplayer support, and i credited PvK/Porportions for the parts i stole, would that be kosher? or do you want to keep the unique features in porportions exclusive to your mod? |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
The settlement and colonies are in different tech areas mainly because I wanted to use those graphics for them, and there were different graphics available, so they seemed appropriate. I also thought to maybe make them a little bit different (more mins on rock, more orgs on ice, more rads and almost no mins on gas), but I didn't make up my mind to do that yet.
Originally the cultural centers had shipyard abilities, which was interesting (and is the reason why there are colony world cultural centers even though they have identical stats now to the homeworld ones). However, the hard-coded limits against adding shipyard facilities to planets which already have them, seemed to outweigh the benefit. Also I enjoyed the effect of reducing build speeds for major items, as well as the requirement to pay some maintenance and so on for orbital shipyards. However, I do think I may adjust shipyards a bit, but what I was thinking of was to add a number of intermediate levels and then reduce the base research cost, so the scale would be about the same, but research into it could pay off faster. Adding shipyard/city combination facilities would make sense, but would be a bit of work and doesn't add all that much, since you can just build them separately. As for making your own variants and playing them on PBW, please do. I only ask that you give an acknowledgement that you are borrowing elements from Proportions, and I hope you'll let me know how it goes. People have already borrowed stuff from Proportions for Derek's mod, Babylon 5 mod, and the new quadrant types mod. PvK |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
This sounds a completely stupid question (OK it is a stupid question) but what does the proportions mod do?
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
GT, you should try this mod if you have not already. there are many small changes, but to me the biggest one is this:
there are now several levels of 'city' type facilities. these take considerably longer to build than other facilities, and provide greater benefits to boot. a homeworld starts covered in cities, and is therefore very powerful. it makes colony development a longer and more involved process. when i play it, i have the feeling that i am running a real colonial power with a central powerbase, rather than a vast distributed empire where every measly colony world is just as powerfull as my capitol. |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Can I install Proportions 2.4 over 2.2 or do I need to get 2.3 first?
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
With this mod I wished we could update to any researched level not just the newest one. I.E. If I have researched Facility X to level 3 I only could upgrade my Facility X 1 to a Facility X 3 not just to a Facility X 2.
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
I'm not sure, but I think GrowlTigga ment, (and I would like to know also),
What is the "Proportional" aspect of it? This was probably explained befor. does anyone have the link? |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
what if there were multiple facilities of the same level?
for example: facility type 666: city-type-things basic city, roman numeral I bigger city, roman II spaceport city, roman II spaceyard city, roman II huge city, III bigger spaceport city III bigger spaceyard city III spaceport/spaceyard city III monsterous city IV huge spaceport city IV huge spaceyard city IV bigger spaceport/spaceyard city IV im not sure if this will work or not, but it could be an interesting approach. its a departure from the current method, and has its own advantages and disadvantages. |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Very sneaky PvK! I just noticed that infantry weapons are Engines, so they can't be placed on larger Troops. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Very clever.
Wait a minute... AFV Armor IV has emmissive ability or 25. Small DUC III does 15 damage. One troop could hold of billions of invaders like that. I assume that more advanced troop weapons do more damage. [ July 19, 2002, 21:53: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
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PvK |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
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And, there are more powerful troop weapons out there... <g>. PvK |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
2.3 introduced exactly this sort of thing, but for cities, only for City + Port + Depot, with all of the city sizes from minor on up. There is also a Port + Depot without a city.
I didn't do spaceyard combos yet, mainly because it seems like a pain because it will also need more than you have listed, because space yards have multiple tech levels, and I was thinking of adding even more spaceyard tech levels. I.e., there would be: Minor City with SY 1 Minor City with SY 2 Minor City with SY 3 Minor City with SY 1 + Port + Depot Minor City with SY 2 + Port + Depot ... City with ... ... Major City with ... ... Metropolis with ... ... ... ... And I can already see John telling me it's not fair unless I also include City + Temporal SY 1 + Port + Depot... ... ... There are other things I might rather do with my time. Meanwhile I think it's ok to have people building SY's as separate facilities. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif PvK Quote:
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
The link is HERE .
Most of the changes in Proportions are changes of the proportions of everything (if you accept a broad meaning of the term) from population size (proportion of a million civilians' cargo requirements to other items) to reproduction rate (proportion of increase to base population) to effects of ship sizes (effects of proportions of scale on combat, maintenance, speed, supply use, etc) to ground combat times (proportions of time and logistics required to conquer a whole planet) to construction rates (proportions of construction rate on colonies compared to developed worlds is more proportional to their population [representing both workforce and equipment and infrastructure]) and economics (proportion of reserves to production), and proportions of research (lengthened to more realistic proportions relative to other events, and extreme changes to the relative proportional effects of colonizing planets on research rates), and unit design (many new worthwhile design choices of what proportion of a unit to devote to previously-deprecated components like armor, shield generation, supply storage, boarding defense, etc), fighters (are now viable even in late-game in proportionally appropriate ways, given proportionally appropriate combat mods and proportionally appropriate [low] damage output), and planetary capacities (the deployment area on breathable planets is now more proportionally appropriate), and of course homeworlds versus colony worlds (homeworlds have appropriate proportional advantages over new colonies) and game pace (more realistic time to accomplish events, resulting in hugely slower colonial development, but equally fast combat...), and the QNP movement system (proportions of ship size affect speed, supply use, etc). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif PvK Quote:
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
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PvK |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Pvk, as a next step, may be you should make some cross-over race technology, like in P&N and Devnull mods ? It will not require AI changes - none is using 2+ racial traits and will make game more interesting.
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Sure, though I don't know how many empires will get to use them.
PvK |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
If you add cross-over techs, more people will design empires with multiple racial tech traits. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Even better than 'crossover' between racial techs would be 'exportable' Versions of some racial tech components. If you had less powerful organic armor or weapons that had some other tech requirement so it could be traded/sold to other races you'd be able to bargain with your special abilities.
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Ya, people may do it just to be able to try out those items. I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I think it's a good idea, although I have a lot of good ideas from my original Foundations mod project that I'm restraining myself from including, to keep Proportions mainly about proportions, rather than about re-doing the tech tree and adding new stuff. But ya it's a good idea, as long as the crossovers are not overly powerful.
PvK |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Yes that's a good idea too, Baron. It might also be good to make the discovered Ancient tech items analyzable if captured, by splitting their tree. I could also add some neat techs that simply have a very high research cost to break into their tree. Though again, these seem to me more like a tech mod, which to me means going back and trying to complete my Foundations mod, rather than slowly morphing Proportions into something like it.
The two main things I think would be best to concentrate on adding to Proportions next would be support for the new mount abilities in the next Gold patch, and some wicked AI advantages to make up for inherent AI disadvantages and make the single-player game quite challenging. I've also been tempted by the idea of adding a monster race... PvK |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Well then, PvK, you better bring Foundation mod Online and stop us drooling about hidden treasures. If Proportions is just a small fragment of your grandiouse project I can't even imagine what you have in your hard drive !
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Hehe, ya. It's a lot of work though. Foundations reworks the tech tree, traits, and components in major ways, but it will be a major effort just to finish all the data entry. Maybe if someone wants to volunteer to convert a lot of Excel notes into SE IV data files... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
PvK |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
By the way, I was just playing a game and got the population of my #1 colony up to 183 million after 5.3 years when a core instability is discovered... on that planet! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Evacuation time!
PvK |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Hehe! Good luck! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I'd be willing to help you with that excel to text file thing. |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Thanks Fyron. I'll start reviewing the Foundations materials with the idea of making a set of easy-to-understand Excel files so we could split up the large (immense?) task of doing all the data file creation. Having developed Proportions so far, it would probably make sense to revise most of Foundations. I do still want to do a Proportions 2.5 and then a 3.0 (and maybe a 2.6), though, and there's a bunch of work to do to get ready to start typing in Foundations 1.0, so it will probably still be a while, day job considered, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
PvK edit: pronoun->noun clarification [ July 21, 2002, 19:16: Message edited by: PvK ] |
Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
No problem. With what Proportions is, I am sure Foundations will be awe-inspiring. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
Here again we see the need for automating the process of creating SE IV data files. Someone needs to build an editor with functions to write out entire classes of components or facilities based on formulas.
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Re: Proportions Version 2.4 released
thinking about "exportable" racial techs for trade, here's another idea:
how about a set of components that *aren't* exportable. For example, you have shields V, which is ahead of your enemy and you so don't want him to capture your ship and analyse it. How cool would it be to have the option of an "Unanalysable" Version of the same tech. There would be a penalty (greater tonnage, or or more expensive or something) and probably would require you to research "Unanalysable technology" or something. This would be a really cool trade off, since the ship would be great at first, but as your opponent's tech progresses the Unanalysable components would start to get more and more pointless and you'd have to retrofit. It could probably be modded (don't ask me how) and might add a cute twist. Opinions? |
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