OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

...where at least I know I'm Free.

http://www.timesOnline.co.uk/article...356926,00.html

Anyone who reads this forum knows that I'm one of the most offensive, nationalist, pricks ever to have cursed this game with my fandom. With that in mind, who has not seen this comming for a long (or even short) way off, and who thinks this is a good idea?

[ July 16, 2002, 06:59: Message edited by: Puke ]

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

This is so very sad. I consider myself to be a loyal patriotic American. I am not that particularly old. I remember as a child before the fall of Communism in the Soviet Union that this type of tactic was held in particular contempt among people in this country.

The end does NOT justify the means people.

Geoschmo

[ July 16, 2002, 14:54: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

All I can say is... wow.

"Those who give up freedom to gain security will not get, nor do they deserve, either one". Or something like that.

Of course, what did we expect when we allowed the country's "highest" court to appoint the son of a former head of the secret police as leader of the country, based on support from a province led by yet another family member? Not to mention the current leader's past involvement with shady business dealings (not that it's anything new; Clinton had Whitewater, Bush has Enron, etc.)...

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gee, that's original. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Your arms ever get tired from beating that drum?

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If I recall correctly, that's one of the US Founding Fathersm and the quote goes a bit more like: "Those who would give up an essential freedom to purchase a temporary security, deserve neither, and surrender both."

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Benjamin Franklin

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Yes, 4000 plus people DIED and it cost this country BILLIONS. I do not want to live in a country where I would fear even posting this comment because some "Terrorist Hunter" decided I was a threat.

I would also note on an equally personal level:

Every time we change our activities out of fear of a terrorist attack, the terrorist win.
I will not let them win.
I will go where I want,
When I want,
Do what I want,
For the same reasons
I would have on September 10, 2001.

You don’t have to if you don’t want to, I speak for myself.

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

"Laws, yes. T-I-P-S...that spells Blockwart."

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

This is most disturbing.

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Well, what can I say......USA just made a new law: its legal to invade The Netherlands.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif if American citizen, who have commited crimes against men kind, are held in The netherlands for trial.

Let's you think about some things.....

So I'm not so surprised to hear a story like this. Welcome back to the cold war.

.

Sparhawk

p.s. No offence offcourse to what happened 11-8, because that was a crime against men kind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
And we all should try to prevent such things in the future to happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Why set up a civilian spy organization? I'd suggest some bill-Boards and a few equally high profile advertisements along the lines of "see something suspicious? It probably is! Phone the FBI/CIA at 1 800-Stop-It!" or something like this...
An organized spy agency is going to accomplish what (besides more paranoia)?

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gee, that's original. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Your arms ever get tired from beating that drum?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I was just quoting someone else for humorous effect. The whole election process seems a bit awkward anyway, with non-standard rules for the primaries and then multiple ways to record votes on the actual election day; not to mention the effect of the popular media. Oh, and let's not forget the people who focus on only one topic (say, the death penalty or abortions) and vote for a candidate simply for that person's public opinion on said topic (regardless of said candidate's private views), even though they completely disagree with everything else that candidate stands for.

Besides, the Last few elections I've really only voted "against" a candidate rather than "for" a candidate. Pretty sad that the vast majority are incompetent louts who've allowed themselves to be corrupted by power. (THERE! Now THAT'S a drum to be beating! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actualy the WTC/Pentagon attacks were on September 11th, not August.

And, though the European pattern is DD/MM/YYY ... here in the states the pattern is mm/dd/yyyy ... so the attacks were on "9-11" ... as in, "dial 9-1-1 in case of emergency" etc, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right, right; thanks muchly. I'm never able to remember correctly whose quote that is ... I'm always torn between attributing it to Franklin ... or Jefferson. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[rant]I'm sorry. Where is the country of mankind? Last I knew, there was the concept of sovreignty of states, that meant each country had the right to try crimes committed in their territory. If someone wants to kill 72 million people in Lower Slobovia, then they ought to be tried according to the laws of Lower Slobovia. Not the laws of the Netherlands, not the laws of England, not the laws of the United States. There is no "world court" because there is no "world government." The day I say the pledge to the UN flag "under man" is the day I accept a world jurisdiction. Yes, there is a universal morality which condemns genocide and other despicable acts. No, there should not be a universal court to try them.[/rant]

I really shouldn't read these political threads.

[edit]I'm sorry for any offence--none intended. I greatly resent the pressure to surrender sovreignty to an international body when we have constitutionally guaranteed freedom from infringement by national powers.

[ July 16, 2002, 20:09: Message edited by: Krsqk ]

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes! Exactly Jimbob. What we need is a nationwide "Neigborhood Watch", not some resurrected "Operation CHAOS".

Geoschmo

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">right on, Krsqk. Have you ever seen the "twenty-nine palms" survey?

[ July 16, 2002, 21:03: Message edited by: Puke ]

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yea, sorry bout that Sparhawk...nothing personal, of course. Sometimes things round here get pretty outta hand and down right stupid.

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Folks,
I don't know who said it and I paraphrase poorly,
~ A generation that ignores history has no future ~
Do we have any historians on the forum that have studied about the 50's in American History that can talk about the trials surrounding "Communist"?

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Yes, sorry Pax my misstake (very stupid one).
It was offcourse 11 september (how could I forget, its the birthday of my wife...)

But to continue this polictical forum. Not all crimes done in a country are perse treated as a crime in that country. There are numberous country where killing of people is without any consequnce for the killers (don't have to say which countries, there too obvious, but one example from the past: Hitler). But still in other countries such killing would be stated as mass killing of men kind. So therefore is its a wise thing to make a internationale court which doesn't look at political or other things that can blind a right judgement of the case.
And probaly this trial would be give a more wiser and fair judgement than any country can!!
Because the "crime" would be seen in more than one prospective, due to the larger amount of "life wisdom" from all over the world.

Sparhawk

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Well, actually, the ICC cannot prosecute you if your country is already doing it. The ICC is for prosecuting offenders who’s country is unwilling or unable to prosecute them. And how in the world would the US be unable to enforce justice in their armed forces? The US doesn't loose any sovereignty if joining the ICC but now it has damaged it as a whole as any dictator in the world will say "Why are you hunting me? Look at the US, they cannot be tried, so why should I be tried? Equal rights to all!". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
The day the world got international crime law was the day the US, England, France and Russia opened the "Nürnberger trials" against the Nazi criminals for offences against mankind (and rightly so!)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[rant]I'm sorry. Where is the country of mankind? Last I knew, there was the concept of sovreignty of states, that meant each country had the right to try crimes committed in their territory. If someone wants to kill 72 million people in Lower Slobovia, then they ought to be tried according to the laws of Lower Slobovia. Not the laws of the Netherlands, not the laws of England, not the laws of the United States. There is no "world court" because there is no "world government." The day I say the pledge to the UN flag "under man" is the day I accept a world jurisdiction. Yes, there is a universal morality which condemns genocide and other despicable acts. No, there should not be a universal court to try them.[/rant]

I really shouldn't read these political threads.

[edit]I'm sorry for any offence--none intended. I greatly resent the pressure to surrender sovreignty to an international body when we have constitutionally guaranteed freedom from infringement by national powers.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Not to steer clear of the heavier themes, but does this article remind anyone else of the 'Nightwatch' (I think) from Babylon 5 and their witch hunts?

zen

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

"The ICC is for prosecuting offenders who’s country is unwilling or unable to prosecute them."
Unable? What's unable? What country is unable to prosecute someone? Countries where UN peacekeepers run things? And unwilling? What if you say it's a crime, but my country doesn't? Were US soldiers who fired on Vietnamese children packed with explosives criminals? How about those who ordered the use of Agent Orange? How about those who actually applied it?

"The US doesn't loose any sovereignty if joining the ICC but now it has damaged it as a whole as any dictator in the world will say 'Why are you hunting me? Look at the US, they cannot be tried, so why should I be tried? Equal rights to all!'"
See above. If the US feels their servicemen were justified in a given situation, but someone else (world opinion? the other guy?) doesn't, then you can claim the ICC has jurisdiction.

"The day the world got international crime law was the day the US, England, France and Russia opened the "Nürnberger trials" against the Nazi criminals for offences against mankind (and rightly so!)
So the ICC only has jurisdiction in wartime? Or any time? Is a civil war sufficient, or must it be an international war? What if there is no war, but UN peacekeepers are present? Or humanitarian aid?

"And probaly this trial would be give a more wiser and fair judgement than any country can!!
Because the 'crime' would be seen in more than one prospective, due to the larger amount of 'life wisdom' from all over the world."
International law has never been applied with equity or "fair judgment. If it was, then Stalin and his goons would have been tried as well for their mass slaughter of the Polish and Ukrainians, not to mention their own people! They definitely were "unwilling" to prosecute.

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Does the court have jurisdiction in peacetime? What about acts of war during peacetime? Or is it just wartime? Who is guilty--the one giving orders, or the ones carrying them out?</font>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What is the enforcement arm of the ICC? World public opinion isn't going to cut it. Sure, they can send peacekeepers into any third-world nation and snatch whoever they want. But what if it's the commander-in-chief of any industrialized nation? You think England would let the UN invade their country? or the US? or anyone else with a decent military? So much for sovreign states.
  </font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[ July 16, 2002, 23:27: Message edited by: Krsqk ]

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

This is war. Plain and complex. I think this(TIPS) is something that is one more tool to fight this war. When the war is over hopefully this will go away. IF it does not then I am more than willing to fight for the Constitution.
I do not want Bin ladin and his kind to win. I am willing to do what is takes to see that The American Constitution and America prevail. I think we could have come up with a better idea than the TIPS program. But at least we are taking some kind of action.
God Bless America

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Originally stated by Sparhawk:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The (extremely controversial) politics surrounding the Isreal/Palestine conflict definitely demonstrate that there is very little neutrality in the world, and that the UN is an extremely political (versus moral) body. This is not to claim that there are no morals in the UN, but simply that the political nature of the body can result in questionable statements and positions. I refer you to the UN convention on human rights in South Africa Last summer when Islamic countries essentially stole the show (again) and drove through an anti-Isreal/Jewish resolution, while totally ignoring any wrong doing by Palestinian suicide bombers.

Please note, I'm not saying that Isreal is innocent of all crime, nor am I saying that only Palestinians are guilty of crime, I'm simply showing how politically driven the UN really can be. Do you really want to hand over National Soveriegnty to such a politically driven organization?

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

"I think this(TIPS) is something that is one more tool to fight this war. When the war is over hopefully this will go away. IF it does not then I am more than willing to fight for the Constitution."

There are only two problems with this. One, the war will never be over, for all practical purposes. There will always be people who hate freedom and who are willing to use any means to fight it. Two, no program ever "goes away" once established. The bureaucrats in charge will find another "need" for their department so they don't lose their funding.

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

"I do not want Bin ladin and his kind to win. I am willing to do what is takes to see that The American Constitution and America prevail."

This is kind of amusing when you think about it a little harder..

Oh, and does anyone else find the "outside the box but within the Constituion" commend the Justice deparment has become fond of laughable? This is of course *after* they've locked up an American citzen for a month without accusing him of anything..

Phoenix-D

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you know Gryph, i used to be proud that our country went through the McCarthy trials, that we survived the histeria and the paranoia and the prosecution. it was a good thing that our liberties and freedom of speach and personal privicy was stripped away then, because we survived it. it made us stronger. we had learned from our mistake, and would not have to repeat it again any time soon. lesser nations might have crumbled, but we stood strong.

now look at us. fifty years later, and up to the same old tricks. I expected better. Shame on us.

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Typing from a Cyber-cafe, just to check up on the forums before I leave:

Puke, with all due respect,
You are actually proud that your country went through the McCarthy trials?!

Now, if what you mean is It's gone, it's past and thank god that plague went away, I apologize, but the McCarthy trials showed how EASILY america collapsed under paranoia, and how others and it;s own citizens had to endure it's consequences.

Not only the commitee questioned just about EVERYBODY, save themselves, that lived in the U.S., they questioned, threatend, and blackmailed FOREIGN dignitaries and offcials, which caused the death of a Canadian Ambassador, and the commitee threatening to accuse some of the UN ambassadors as communists, save the communists themselves.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

i didnt think i was that unclear.

i was glad we went through it, because i thought we had learned something from it, and would not have to face it again. if another governemet had gone through a similar crisis, it probably would have floundered and fell. we didnt. we learned, and got better.

now, we are doing the same thing. so we have learned NOTHING. it is a shamefull thing for us to now be repeating the same 50 year old mistakes. now any pride we may have had in our strength and resolve is thrown away by our foolhardy actions.

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

TIPS is double-plus-ungood, but it is necessary to protect the masses. Better off that not much be said about TIPS, since Ignorance is Strength.

According to Winston Smith, this war is unlike any other war. War is Peace, after all.

We must not forget that in general the art of all truly great national leaders at all times consists among other things primarily in not dividing the attention of a people, but in concentrating it upon a single foe. The more unified the application of a people's will to fight, the greater will be the magnetic attraction of a movement and the mightier will be the impetus of the thrust. It belongs to the genius of a great leader to make even adversaries far removed from one another seem to belong to a single Category, because in weak and uncertain characters the knowledge of having different enemies can only too readily lead to the beginning of doubt in their own right.

Freedom is Slavery!

Now everybody be a good citizen and goodthink.

[ July 17, 2002, 21:25: Message edited by: Repo Man ]

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

alright, what the heck is this?

http://www.darpa.mil/iao/

i mean, what IS this? the technology looks really cool, and im glad they're researching it and all, and im sure it will make our inteligence operatives more effective..

but "story telling" and "truth maintainance" sound a little suspicious.

i remember reading about the real-time two way translaters being developed. it appears that we already have real-time one-way audio translators. captain kirk, eat your heart out.

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Optimistic answer: a think-tank trying to improve our ability to identify potential terrorist threats in time to do something about them.

Pessimistic answer: a massive boondoggle that might manage to spin off some useful tech, but will mostly get bogged down in turf wars between the various intelligence bureaucracies.

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

i like their logo, sort of big-brother meets the cia. i think the homeland security logo should be the eye in the pyramid shining down on a little A-frame house. this one has got that whole 'world under our thumb' cuteness to it.

but hey, it looks like congress might put the squealch to that citizens-spying-on-citizens business. they are also looking to stomp out the standardized drivers licenses and national ID cards, which sort of sucks. I always wished i could just swipe my social security card rather than filling out 20 forms at the doctors office /or DMV

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

I was about to say that site was a hoax. Then I did a few google searches. Poindexter has been around.

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

hoaxes dont usually have .mil extensions

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, that's spot on. I can already imagine the Ministry of Peace being rolled out.

As Sheridan would say:

"Meet me in my quarters. You're gonna LOVE this...."

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Heh! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I almost thought the original article was just some alarmist talk, but I found direct linkage to the Citizen Corps from the whitehouse.gov site. And here I thought FEMA was losing all that power.

And in further Psi Corps developments...

or here, if you can't see that:
http://www.news-journalOnline.com/2002/Jul/14/NOTE1.htm

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Damn, that's evil....

The second I see a present-day equivalent of a beat-up Narn battlecruiser come screaming through a jumpgate, I'll be headed for the nearest bomb shelter. Talk about troubled times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Discovery Channel (or TLC or one of those channels) did an hour-long segment on the CIA's involvement in remote viewing (and other ESP-type stuff) 5 or 6 years ago; it was... interesting... to say the least. I'd like to believe that ESP worked, but I have to agree somewhat with the skeptics.

Then again, there's a rumour that Miss Cleo is now working for the FBI... (for our foreign readers, Miss Cleo runs a "Psychic Hotline", speaks with a badly faked Jamaican accent, and runs nearly continuous ads on late-night TV). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

Krsqk, I would disagree with all due respect but after a week (sorry, vacations) I think I better let it rest in peace. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2002/072302.asp

the official form http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Please note that i do not agree with this joke form..... it is a little racey for my liking but...it does capture the spirit of the program.

[ July 30, 2002, 20:51: Message edited by: tesco samoa ]

Re: OT: I\'m proud to be an American...
 

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html

When neighbors attack!