OT: Cheaters
 

Before you all go and freak out, I am not talking about SEIV or PBW. What I am talking about is other games.

I recently discovered that I am a naive fool when it comes to cheaters and games. In every game there will be those who cheat. It is when that game becomes so saturated by cheaters that one begins to understand that cheating has become the black market of the On line / Multiplayer universe.

Games such as Tribes, Counter Strike, BOTF, Quake 2, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, and even Elite Force and SEIV have all fallen pray to these Lepers who love to cheat.

I just discovered, after nearly a month of game play, that the on line game Black Nova Traders, is a cesspool of cheating. It really sickens me to find out how naive I really am. To have been beaten by a cheater, and to have all my hard work stolen from me by a cheater just makes me want to find the server this game is one, and hack it. Then again, I have no hacking skills, so that in turn really angers me. Sorry, cheating happens, and it is an on line gaming way of life.

The sick thing is that no one seems to be able to stem the tide. The faster the game developers fix the exploits, the faster the hackers hack the game.

When Tribes became as bad as Counter Strike, I stopped playing it. The developers could care less, as they were interested in other issues such as fixing bugs. Commendable, but off target a bit. You see, once the word got out that CS was flooding and swamped by cheaters, no one played. So Sierra had to do something. They recently, Last month, released a new patch for HL to fix many of the known hacks. Well, new hacks are now popping up and the game is once again falling back into that quagmire that cheaters love so much.

Is there no light at the end of the tunnel? I think there is. I think that in time, developers will become so desperate to stop cheaters that they will make it a part of the gaming license that if the player is detected cheating, more than once, then their CD code, registered to them, will be Banned from all game servers for X amount of time. If cheating continues, it will become a permanent ban.

With the ever increasing anti-theft, owner verification programs, and smarter copy prevention systems becoming more and more aggressive, I can see a time when using a pirated copy of a game to play on line with will be a thing of the past.

People say it can not be done, or where there is a will, there is a way, but I say to that, your right. And those who develop these games will eventually find a method that will ensure that although the game can be hacked and copied, it can't be played on line.

In the end, cheaters will loose the incentive to cheat. Cheating is a self-destructive pattern that can only lead to one's loosing interest in a game. If you know you are always going to win, winning becomes less and less important. Once people know that you’re a cheater, who'll want to play with you?

I have learned my lesson about Black Nova Traders, and have stopped playing that game. If the cheaters are so fricking desperate to be top dawg in that game, then I say they can have it. Besides, the banner pop-ups were getting to become a major nuisance.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

[rant]
When I hear stuff like this it makes me even more appreciative of Malfador that they do take the issue seriously and make an effort to fix those problems when they come up.

My pet theory about this kind of stuff is that these people aren't relly interested in winning or losing the game itself. The real game they are playing is against the developer, not against the people in the game where they are cheating. Many of them are amatuer programmers, or even professional ones but are stuck in unsatisfying jobs. They see the developer of the game doing the things they they want to do, and feel like they could do better if only...

a)They had more time
b)They had more money for startup
c)They weren't being held back
d)Life wasn't so unfair

blah, blah, blah.

It's really very sad actually. Instead of getting off their butts and making this "Awesome game" they have floating around in their heads and actually learning how the real world operates, they choose instead to show their skill at programing by destroying the hard work of others.[/rant]

Geoschmo

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

I don't play any PBW games because of the weenies that do this sort of crap. Same sort of shock and depressing wake-up call happened to me about 10 or years ago. It's pretty sicking, I saw the same sort of thing at university. Cheating seemed to be the 'cool' accepted norm.

Indeed, by now, I am convinced that honest, moral, upright behavior toward your fellow human being is the exception to the rule.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is really a depressing way to look at life my friend. I would have to say that the people I have met here at these forums have proven to be very nice people indeed. Always helpful and always willing to talk.

If what you say is accurate, and I am not agreeing or dissagreeing with you, then I would venture a guess that in "that" mind set, the game is all about money and power.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

Tenryu

most people are just wrapped up in there own world and it seems that they are that way. Careless perhaps but on the whole do not wish for harm to occur to others.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

Gentlemen,

RANT ON
Having played games Online now for far too long (20 years? -- starting with compuserve on an apple) I have encountered cheating in every game. Whether it was a 1st person shooter like Tribes or Everquest (*Everquest is a HUGE discussion in and of itself), a strategy game like Mechcommander or StarCraft, or an edventure game like Diablo I have always found cheaters.

Some of those games had a fantastic and enthusiastic player community that stomped down hard on cheating. The best example of a player community IMHO was the StarLance Mechcommander league. There were instances of players and whole teams cheating, yet the retributive actions taken by the player-body and adminstration of the league cleaned up the problem player(s) quite nicely. (I miss Starlance - it was very good - in its time.)

Starcraft and Diablo were games that had rampant cheating and I soon left them in frustration and anger.

Some folks might make the general statement that all cheating is done by 13-16 year old puberty ridden boys. However, I have seen instances older (age 40+) established players, male and female, taking advantage of an exploit or hack in a game or league system.

Cheating is always sad, and I find that I have become fairly inured to it. If it ruins the gaming experience for me or my team, then I leave the game behind and find a new one.

RANT OFF

&lt;~sigh~&gt;

Cheers!
Trajan

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

I just seriously don't understand how people can cheat not only once, but keep doing it. To me it's the most low thing they could possibly do. I mean that takes the challenge of the game away. When I get a game I'm looking for a challenge, not a blow away with cheats. That's why I've taken up PBW, to play against human intelligence(sp) and have a challenge, the AI got to be a little bit too easy. But it's no fun if you cheat, and when you cheat you take the fun out of the game for others, not just yourself.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have to agree, unfortunately. In a more real-world example, the company that one of my friends works for recently announced, in the spirit of open, honest communication, some changes they were making in preparation for acquiring another company. Instead of being praised for their VOLUNTARY disclosure, the market panicked, assuming that the company was using false honesty to cover fraud, and the stock value fell 50% in the span of a single day. I guess the moral here is to lie, cheat and steal because the general population assumes you will anyway, and will just punish you more for honesty than deceit.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

The only reason, and this is the only reason, is that cheaters are losers that can't stand losing. The only way for them to win, however, is to stack the deck in thier favor mid-game.

In the past, I've seen players in SE leave because of cheating whether they did it or were a victim of it.

The tide of this war will have to start changing sooner or later. Sadly, we are going to have to drag our morals and ethics through the dirt before they can. What I'm taking about is that we need a group of people to find these hacks and cheats for MM and help him fix them. They will also have to investigate possible cheaters by simply playing them in games and cheating.

If a game is played between cheaters, one will cry 'he cheated!' and when we ask for proof, it'll expose them as cheaters one way or another.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, this is already being done. It's unfortunatly way too much of what I do at PBW. But it's worth the effort IMHO.

But it doesn't require any violation of ethics on our part. You can find cheats and hacks playing games on your own computer. You don't have to do it in an actual Online multiplayer game. All that does is call your motivation into question. So my suggestion to anyone out there that feels compelled to seek out these hacks and cheats, do it in test games on your own computer, and report your findings immediately to Malfador. Don't share this knowledge with anyone in a forum. And don't do it in PBW games, under ANY circumstances, even for "testing" purposes.

Geoschmo

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

Actually, SE IV has an advantage over the other more 'interactive' games. When you are streaming packets of game information over TCP/IP it's quite easy to snoop the interaction between the game and the client and find ways to cheat. TCP/IP was not designed to be secure, it was designed to be 'survivable' in the event of major damage to the network. Exchanging entire game files, encrypted game files, and restricting the interaction to direct processing on the host machine makes it far harder to cheat. Combine that with the fact that the SE IV fan community is a bunch of geeks who do the math and check how the game is working all the time and it's pretty hard to get something by us for long... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

Actully, multiplayer testing for cheats would be acceptable in my mind if both parties are involved in the testing.

Of course, I rarely play multiplayer simply because of a nasty experiance I had with a cheater - that cheater later went into exile from that community as a result of the community jumping into angry-mob form and running him out.

Oh well.

It might be vindictive, but we should create a database of known cheaters labeled by IP's so we can keep an eye on them incase they return and how they cheated so that MM can fix it.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I also have no problem if people want to test multiplayer cheats in your mind. I just don't want them doing it on PBW. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you have a cheat you want to test, and you need someone to play with you (I can't imagine why, because you can play all sides of a simultaneous game on one PC and test this stuff, but for the sake of argument) then do it via PBEM. There is no difference as far as Se4 is concerned between PBW and PBEM.

Geoschmo

[ July 18, 2002, 16:58: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I might be misreading you Hadrian, but I don't think that's quite right. Some people cheat because they can't stand to lose. Other cheat because they don't want to take the time required to become good at a game, and want everything now. These would be the folks who run out and buy a 60th level Necromancer in Everquest. Then there are those who want to be respected. I remember the few times I would play Starcraft Online in a public room and I would watch the chat about "so and so being the bomb" and see how important ranking seemed to be to those who spent hours Online. Personally, I think it's sad to need this sort of acceptance so badly, but some people are very lonely. Then there are those who just aren't very good at certain types of games. I'll admit that RTS is not much fun for me because I am way to methodical to keep up with the pace of RTS, and if I wanted to compete with some of these kids, I would probably be forced to cheat myself! So I think there are tons of reasons that people cheat, and I apologize if I mistook your point!

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

You didin't mistake me, but to me it's always that people want to win and win now. I've seen good players turn around and cheat - just to end the game.

Of course, building up Online account stats like those for diablo and everquest then selling on ebay has always kinda seemed interesting to me as a way to make some side cash.

I know MM want's to increase thier fan base with System Wars, but I'm also afraid of the increase in cheating, hacking, and piss-poor copy-cats.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

[soapbox mode]
I agree with Sachmo...there are many reasons why people cheat. I can understand it to an extent, for SOLO play. For example, I have a friend who used to just use cheat codes for his games, and I didn't understand why he didn't want the challenge. It wasn't until my life became too busy with a full-time job and two part-time jobs that I realized that he wanted the -experience- without putting in the time, of which he had none. Again, this is for SOLO play.

I absolutely abhor cheaters when it comes to playing other people. It's one thing to inflate your own ego, but not at the expense of others. I play on-line all the time with the FPS Team Fortress Classic, and cheaters pop-up frequently. I'm a pretty decent player, and my main trouble comes when I do a decent job suppressing (clan) players; if I do too well, I am accused of cheating. With the sensitivity of server admins of late, they automatically listen to every plebe who accuses a more skilled player of cheating.

*sigh* I remember a time before all this cheating when skill meant something.
[/soapbox mode]

zen

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

To "peel the onion," so to speak...

Cheaters want the end result so bad: The prestige and personal satisfaction of being declared "a winner."

They need this and it drives them so that they simply can't enjoy the experience. They can't accept losing because it really makes them feel insecure.

In their own convaluded logic, cheating is just another strategy to employ so they can prove they were smarter, craftier than other people. In a weird sense of denial, their actions are justified. Consider Capt James T Kirk, who altered the rules of the winless game in Starfleet Academy to allow him to win. Amazingly enough, cheaters all seem to fantasize that they are #1 Federation Starfleet Commander as well, and that they must best people any way they can. How many Kirk wannabes are out there? Many.

Not being able to handle losing is insecurity. It is tremendously disrespectful to other pleyers, some of which I am happy to say are friends, although I've never met them.

Personal challenge, comeraderie, and enjoyment take precedence over the simple temptation of cheating, which appeals to us all on some level. Most solid players realize that a victory via cheating is empty. You haven't really tested yourself.

When you are mature enough to handle losing, you don't get mad and curse for the death of the victor. You appreciate them, learn from them, and congratulate them. Well, maybe you swear a little. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

This is a game, simply put. Enjoy the experience, good or bad. Revel in what you have done well, and work on what you need to do better. It is ok to lose. Percentages are heavily stacked against you.

When a cheater fantasizes that the game it represents a chance to prove they are not a "loser," they blatantly prove otherwise without really acknowledging it.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

First of all, cheating sucks!

In these discussions, it hasnt been pointed out that quite a few cheaters aren't even playing the same game we are. They are playing against the game system itself. They could care less about whether or not they win or lose a particular game, but all that matters is that they beat the system. These are the worst kind of cheaters beacause they are the actual source of cheats that become public. That is winning the game for them. Finding a loophole or hack and posting it onto the web so that everyone can defeat the game system.

One of the biggest problems with cheating is poor game design. A lot of games are designed as a standalone game and then ported to be multiplayer. This is a real problem because when this design is followed, the player is not limited to only the data that the player needs. In games designed as such, the cheater already has 95% of the information they need sitting on their computer already. All they need to do is figure out how to get it.

Proper network game architecture would solve the majority of cheating that is in existance already. Unfortunately, the customer demands of needing to release a game as both single player and multiplayer seems prevents this architecture from being profitable.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

I couldn't agree with you more with everything you said Stone Mill.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This more so then anything. You may get mad you lost, but you don't as you said "curse the death of the victor", you simply congratulate them and move on, you learn from your loses. I personally enjoy losing, it gives me a chance to look at the way I play, and examine it and see how I could do better; then I look at how the person that beat me played and see how their stratagy worked better then mine and I add it to how I play. But you said it well Stone Mill.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I also have no problem if people want to test multiplayer cheats in your mind. I just don't want them doing it on PBW. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What if they were to arrange it specifically with you beforehand ... ? 8)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Some of the trick might be, "lets see if you can find the right tell-tale signs, to indicate HOW the other player is cheating" ... producing a list of "warning signs" that might indicate possible cheating by an opponent Online.

Also, dare I say it, either you or someone else (approved BY you, ofc) should be semi-regularly "testing" PBW's security; hacking into the server itself is merely another potential form of cheating, after all.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nearly all of the requests the PBW admins get to investigate suspected cheating turn out to be perfectly legit tactics that the accuser hadn't seen used before. A formal list of "warning signs" would just make people paranoid, because most of them would be indistinguishable from other game events.

capnq
PBW admin

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you ask beforehand, I will ask you not to do it on PBW and explain to you that any test you wish to run can be done on your own PC with yourself running all the players turns. Actually it is MUCH more efficent and much faster.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We do have someone that takes care of that for us.

Geoschmo

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You hit the nail on the head here.

My best friend won't play Tribes 2 because he falls into this catagory. He loves winning so much that he can't handle the taste of defeat. He is not a cheater, just someone who likes to win, and won't play a game unless he can win.

I talked him into playing a hot seat game of SEIV not too long ago. He talked the talk, but when it came right down to it, he did not know enough about the game to offer much of a challenge. (Sorry Aaron, I could not talk him into buying the game.)

A few days ago something odd occured. At first the other player and I suspected it to be unusual, and reported it to PBW Admins. It turned out to be an Intel attack that neither of us had ever seen before. A very effective intel attack I might add. We did not believe it was cheating, but we were concerned that something had happened. In the end, as reported, most concerns turn out to be ok.

In games like Diablo, the spells that sent you right to hell were -um- funny at first, but quickly lost their appeal after about the 300 millionith time. BattleNet suffored horribly because of that.

I guess one of the ways to catch a person who is exploiting the option of cheating is to know how they do it.

In Tribes it was scripts. You could write a script that said, "Give Unlimited Energy" and it would work. Of course once you survivied a direct NUKE hit, and walked away from it without so much as a scratch, you were booted and Banned from the server. That was quickly overcome by logging off, and logging back on with a new user name. Finally they went after IP's. That was very very effective. But IP change. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I could not imagine any one being so desprate as to need to cheat in SEIV. Hell if they want to win, just play the AI. You can cheat like a SOB against it without ever having to "mod" the game.

Re: OT: Cheaters
 

Personally I can take as much pleasure in losing, as in winning.

Related example to SE4, I also play in several games of --&gt; Stars! &lt;-- and in one of them, my poor race, the Tejari Battle Synod, have been kicked and spat upon pretty much from the moment of first contact. They only survived because another, larger neighbor valued the intelligence data that the Tejar could provide, and hoped I would be able to recover from being on the losing end of a too-early war.

Well, I never fully recovered (near constant war will do that), though I made a good showing for a while in the middle game. The Tejari are currently down to their homeworld, and only about 30 or 40 true warships (a pitifully small number in Stars!, where fleets of hundreds or even thousands regularly clash at -multiple- battle sites each turn) ... it's about as bad a loss as I've ever had in that game.

But I enjoyed every SECOND of that loss; to me, winning is NICE and I'd -like- to win, I'll -try- to win ... but whatever the outcome, it's teh journey there that's most important to me.

Losing race though the Tejari Battle Synod might have turned out to be, they were fun to play. Heck, I've only WON a game of Stars! once yet, and that was more by bluff and diplomacy than aught else!

...

... so, IMO anyone that can't enjoy a game unless they win needs to ease up on the caffeine or sugar or testosterone supplements or whatever. It's a game, not life and death, after all. It's not like Ed McMahon is going to hand the winder of the game a billion dollars or whatnot, after all! (if he was going to, I'd understand caring only for win/loss, US$1B is nothing to sneeze at! lol!)

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif