How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

Hey all you self-destructive types out there. Taz here with the newest way to cripple your Empire!
Yep, I think I have come up with a new stupid gamer trick.
First you must be at war with an opponent that is building very large fleets... 40-50+ ships
Next your defense must rely on very large arrays of satellites... 80 + large satellites
Lastly, you must become paranoid that some ships can sneak in via cloaking...so you build a detection satellite. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Now give that detection satellite some stealth armor - add it to the stack of satellites and (to prevent the detection satellite from getting harmed) turn on the stealth mode. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Can I hear you pro's groaning? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Sure enough, the next stack of ships sent your way go clean by your defenses without a problem!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

End result : Rage 1 - Me 0 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS...

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

I've done this once before also. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Kinda made me feel like a complete fool.

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

Spy sats should always be hidden far behind the front lines, in an asteroid belt or a storm.

I suppose you didn't realize that if combat occurs in the sector, your sat isn't protected anyways?

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So for us non pro's are you actaully tell me that one satellite within a whole mess of them will cloak the whole group???

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No no, I realized that it wouldn't be protected if it was in the same sector that was being attacked. But I just usually cloak anything that can be cloaked if it's where I want it. I never thought that it would be safe if I just cloaked it.

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

Well DavidG, any ability like cloaking or ECM will apply to a stack of satellites. I must admit that I knew this for ECM and combat sensors and SHOULD HAVE known that a cloaked satellite would cloak the whole stack. I just wasn't thinking very good just then. Also I should have realizied that being in the same sector with uncloakedthings (ships/bases) would still have the satellite on the combat screen.
So I am guilty of TWO errors! That is why it is such a stupid gamer trick!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, that's true. I sometimes do this. I make small sats with just beams, another just combat sensors, another just ecm, another just stealth armor, topping the stack off with armor only sats. In combat with all sat's clumped, which everyone hates, all abilities apply until they are shot away, Last one launched is destroyed first. It's not really as cool as it sounds -- even the AI knows enough to not tangle with a monster stack of sats unless it has enough fire power. Or it just nukes the planet first than cleans up the sats.

I heard that troops also stack their abilities -- so my troops have functions too -- a front line of armored troops with one cannon, behind them are assault troops with no armor and 3 cannons, and then a command group with armor, ECM, combat sensors, maybe shields (MM will fix the bug that shields dont work on troops eventually) and maybe one cannon. I heard that troops are targeted in the order they are put on the transport -- so frontline first, then assault, then command. I may have this backward though.

I wish we could do this with fighters -- one large fighter, well armored, to provide ECM and combat sensors to several smaller beam and rocket pod fighters while some small shielded fighters provide the entire group with defence. But you can only build that fighter wing on tactical.

'Course so many people hate this clustering of abilities maybe MM might make all these tricks go away sometime. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ July 27, 2002, 14:42: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

I don't know if calling them "tricks" is appropriate. All of these methods have drawbacks as well as advantages to them. It's not as if they are perfect or (I HATE this word) unbalancing.

I suppose some people wouldn't be happy unless sats were all treated as individuals with no kind of grouping at all, but then wouldn't they be pretty close to useless? It's the safety of numbers that makes them at least semi-useful. And even then they are sufficently easy to destroy with just a little bit of planning and a few decent capital ships. They really only serve the purpose of denying your enemy what I would call "cheap" victories. That is, a one or two ship fleet being able to get behind the lines and glass numerous lightly defended planets. And they are after all static defenses. Defenses should be tough afterall.

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is that true? With weapon platforms and troops, its the first built/dropped that gets hurt first.

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

I haven't checked the troops trick lately, but the damage effect on satellites and WPs has been altered. Satellite and WP stacks seem to be like armor now, the smallest seems more likely to get hit first regardless of position. But it's fairly random, and not 'reverse order' at all anymore.

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

Arkon - This sounds like intense micromanagement.

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree, kinda. It's just that IMO sending out a fighter wing makes more sence. Look at the MM SE4 webpage that shows the graphics -- the fighter group has a certain default compositition -- Large fighter, 2 mediums, 2 small. Just like default fleet composition -- Battleship, 2 battle cruisers, 4 light cruisers. I just figured the game would do it's best to build a fighter group according to a specified grouping.

I remember one time I had both rocket pod fighters and apb fighters on the same carrier -- most fighter Groups launched were the "hit 'em hard once and now we're PDC fodder" or "5 guys with pea-shooters picking away at the shields" but one mixed group was able to give a nice 1-2 punch and then act like a 3 man pea shooter. It was cool -- if only I could count on it more often. If carriers tried to mix-up fighter Groups by name for example rather than keeping Groups homogenous and only mixing when it needs a couple more to fill out group number, it would lead to more interesting fighter designs. As it stands now, the Terrans for example under the default AI are almost silly. They only build small rocket pod fighters. If you have enough shielding to survive the 5 member hit, you can pick the off with PDC at leisure.

I realize the micromanagement angle -- building all types of fighters, loading them in the proper proportion, and what happens if the numbers aren't in correct proprtion or if they're lost in combat. In that case the carrier could launch whatever order it can. Hey, we all just give the ships a plan -- if it doesn't work flawlessly all the time well that's just fog of war http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[EDIT] Multiple edits to correct grammar and diction -- Sunday morning -- typing -- grumble grumble http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 28, 2002, 15:45: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One can use the "Edit" icon above the post, rather than reposting the entire thing as a Reply. Another thing to blame on Sunday morning? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

Arcon, default Terran AI is quite silly indeed. Try TDM Terran/Earth Alliance AI. It utilizes fighters more efficiently.

Also, if you are (absolutely correctly !!) unsatisfied with 5-fighters stack, change AI setting from "launch fighters" 5 to 20. Most TDM races uses the bigger number.

[ July 29, 2002, 02:59: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

To Baron:
the unit with the least hit points will always get destroyed first. A stack of units is treated like a ship with multiple components (each unit one component) and when there is enough damage to destroy the smallest component of the stack, it will get bLasted. So its of no use to build one WP with only shields and one with only weapons and hope that the shields will take the punishment. The armed WP will always be destroyed first as it has the least amount of hit points.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not necessarily. The best fighter group would be one of 1 unit. See the above example. If the enemy is applying 60 points of damage and you have a group of 3 fighters with 21 hit points each then 2 fighters would be destroyed and the Last fighter could only took 3 more points. If you only had one fighter 40 points of damage would be lost. So, having smaller attack Groups will force the enemy to waste damage points. This is especially good against powerful weapons like WP heavy mount weapons. One such weapon can take out a 5 unit stack but damage will be lost while a 20 unit stack would take more casualties without wasting any damage points.

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

Defensively it's best to have one fighter per group. But offensively it sucks. Especially if the enemy uses Emissive Armor! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif You have to mass fighters together to get greater attack strength. I wish there was a way to re-organize fighters in the middle of combat after they've been launched. If you could launch in large Groups for the initial attack and then tell them to split into smaller Groups once the big targets are nearly destroyed and only smaller ships with lots of PDC are still around you'd have the best of both worlds.

[ July 29, 2002, 20:50: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

The other thing is with a lot of small fighter Groups you can effectivly block a large portion of your fighters out of range of the targets. But since the targets weapons are not as short of range as the fighters, this isn't a problem for them.

Although Mephisto before your post I was sure that large Groups were the way to go and I am not now. Perhaps the positives/neagatives to both methods balance out and it doesn't really matter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geoschmo

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

I have extensively used fighters and still do. As to best fighter group size, that depends on what you do with them and your opponent's ship configuration.

Small fighter Groups have the advantage of having the opponent 'waste' firepower as previously mentioned. Also in tactical battle mode you can use fighters to block movement of your enemy's ships. You can even stop or isolate them by surrounding them with fighters. I sometimes use large numbers of small fighter Groups to board enemy ships - fighters surround the ship and take down the shields and a 'taker' boarding ship then nips in to capture the enemy ship.
If I want to just kill ships, I use larger Groups of fighters for the firepower.

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I agree. Both ways have advantages and disadvantages. All I would ask for this to follow the modders design decision as the rest of the race design might be trimmed for this end (fighter design, carrier launch bays...). Small changes sometimes can lead to huge effects.

Re: How dumb is the AI/Are U ?
 

The major problem with small fighter Groups is that they make a veeery long line attacking enemy. Usualyy it means that only a fraction of your fighters is capable to reach enemy ships every turn. It greatly reduces the burden on PDC. But if they attck en mass, they need to survive only one-two rounds of PD before firing. As to the damage transfer inside group, large fighters with cIII shields are rather tough. The only problem is religious race that can fire big guns and does not miss. Against other races large Groups are better, I think.