counter intelligence
 

How exactly does counter intelligence work?

I currently am in contact with two other races. I am generating almmost 200,000 intelligence, which is more than the other two empires combined, and I am still having successful intelligence operations against me.

I have tried counter intelligence I and II, and sometimes they work and sometimes they do not.

So, what are the differences between counter intelligence-I, II and III? Why am I unsuccessful against the other two empires operations when I have more points than the other two combined?

Re: counter intelligence
 

Counter-Intel depends on having points STORED in a CI project.

If the CI project is completed, you lose all those defense points.

So, put your highest level CI project first for a turn or two, then move it to the back of the queue before it is finished. (Don't use "divide points evenly")

As the enemies attack, the stored points will decrease. When you are out of points in CI projects, then they will start to succeed in their attacks.

Re: counter intelligence
 

So I don't necessarily want to complete a Counter Intelligence project? And time left to completion of .1 years is bad? So, if I understand correctly, as long as I have a CI up, but not with .1 years left, I can successfully defend against attacks?

So, what is the difference, other than cost, between CI levels I, II and III?

[ July 27, 2002, 20:23: Message edited by: Kimball ]

Re: counter intelligence
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Only difference is cost, and how many Counter Intel points they hold. III is the best since it holds what 500,000 points, or something like that. Thus you can defend higher projects that are attacking you.

[ July 27, 2002, 20:40: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

Re: counter intelligence
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Or, put up one iteration fo your highest CI project. Next turn, add another. Next turn, another. And so on, until you have (if you're going pure defense) all 12 slots filled, with ever-changing %complete levels. Arrange for the higher-total projects to be "first" in line for depletion by enemy action. Set the queue to autoamtically repeat all completed projects (just in case).

And DO divide points evenly. 8)

Re: counter intelligence
 

It all makes sense now. Thanks guys!

Re: counter intelligence
 

Ahh the enigma of Intelligence - no explanations anywhere!?

This is based on tests I did about three months ago using 1.49. So hopefully someone will correct where my memory fails me.

On defense -

Level 1 gives 1x your defense points (the only reason someone would use this is if they don't have app. int. and they are getting intelligence points from trade once you get app. int. don't use this!)
Level 2 gives 2x your defense points
Level 3 gives 3x your defense points

ex - enemy attacks you with 90000 points
you would need to have saved 90000 in level 1 but only 30000 in level 3 to stop the attack.

Level 1 stops up to level 1 type attacks
Level 2 stops up to level 2 type attacks
Level 3 stops up to level 3 type attacks

So level 1 counter intel will stop fuel leaks, but not food shortage.

Puppet Political Parties rarely worked in my simulation - even when opponent had no intel saved - so don't bother.

Finally if I recall correctly (correct me if I'm wrong)
Even though you may have the points stored each instance of:
Counter intel 1 can only stop up to 1 attack
Counter intel 2 can only stop up to 2 level 2 attacks - AND ALL level 1 attacks REGARDLESS of points stored
Counter intel 3 can only stop up to 3 level 3 attacks - AND ALL level 1 and 2 attacks REGARDLESS of points stored

Ultimately if you have counter intel 3 and a good stock pile of intelligence you are pretty much immune.

[ July 27, 2002, 22:06: Message edited by: augustinetorres ]

Re: counter intelligence
 

Originally posted by augustinetorres:
"Ahh the enigma of Intelligence - no explanations anywhere!?

This is based on tests I did about three months ago using 1.49. So hopefully someone will correct where my memory fails me.

On defense -

Level 1 gives 1x your defense points (the only reason someone would use this is if they don't have app. int. and they are getting intelligence points from trade once you get app. int. don't use this!)
Level 2 gives 2x your defense points
Level 3 gives 3x your defense points

ex - enemy attacks you with 90000 points
you would need to have saved 90000 in level 1 but only 30000 in level 3 to stop the attack."

This is basically correct. But you have another multiplyer of defense points in the settings text (unmodded it is 1.2). So in your example you need only 25000 points in a counter intel project 3 to stop an attack of 900000 points.

"Level 1 stops up to level 1 type attacks
Level 2 stops up to level 2 type attacks
Level 3 stops up to level 3 type attacks

So level 1 counter intel will stop fuel leaks, but not food shortage."

This is wrong. You can stop any attacking intel projects with counter intel level I provided you have multiple counter intel projects with enough point accumulated together.

"Finally if I recall correctly (correct me if I'm wrong)
Even though you may have the points stored each instance of:
Counter intel 1 can only stop up to 1 attack
Counter intel 2 can only stop up to 2 level 2 attacks - AND ALL level 1 attacks REGARDLESS of points stored
Counter intel 3 can only stop up to 3 level 3 attacks - AND ALL level 1 and 2 attacks REGARDLESS of points stored"

Again wrong. See above.
And don't forget that an empire that produces no intel points by itself can get them from a partnership treaty!

[ July 28, 2002, 06:36: Message edited by: Q ]

Re: counter intelligence
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Small correction. Put your strongest counter intel. project LAST in line. This is the one that will receive the attack.

Kim

Re: counter intelligence
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I just redid the simulation and the defender had over 50,000 on defense in counter intel 1 and one food contamination at 15k got through, but then I tried over 50k in counter intel 2 and it stopped crew insurrection. I then tried fuel leak against 50k in counter intel 1 and fuel leak got through as well.

So my guess is that counter intel 1 doesn't seem to be working. Can someone else check this out.

You're right about the third part though.

[ July 28, 2002, 19:07: Message edited by: augustinetorres ]

Re: counter intelligence
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did the 50k on defense still have points being fed to it? Stored points are only effective if the project is still getting points (i.e. has more than 0 points per turn being spent on it).

[Edit] Since I know someone will question this, here's a quote from the Malfador website Q&A:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[ July 28, 2002, 19:13: Message edited by: capnq ]

Re: counter intelligence
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I redid your simulation and counter intel I defeated repeatedly the food contamination. Are you sure that no other intel projects were targeted against the same empire?
And the same is true if the counter intel project was at the end of the list and received no new intel points ("divide point equally" off).

[ July 28, 2002, 21:01: Message edited by: Q ]

Re: counter intelligence
 

To sum it up - Counter intelligence is counter intelligent. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: counter intelligence
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Did the 50k on defense still have points being fed to it? Stored points are only effective if the project is still getting points (i.e. has more than 0 points per turn being spent on it).

[Edit] Since I know someone will question this, here's a quote from the Malfador website Q&A:

Quote:

Defense intelligence projects will have their points depleted (the points you are paying in to complete them) as they defend against attacks. Once a defensive project expires, you will have to start it again to continue your protection. The more projects you have going, the better your protection will be. However, if you have a defensive intelligence project, and you are not spending any points towards it, it will not provide any protection.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This must have been changed; in my current game, (ver 1.67), I have 4 CI-3 projects plus 4 PPP's going. I have "divide points equally" turned off, so the 4 PPP's complete each turn, with 30-40k points going into the first CI-3 project. The other 3 CI-3 projects are receiving NO points, they just have around 400k points stored in each one. Each turn, I'm stopping up to 8 intelligence projects, and the points are being deducted from the LAST CI project (one of the ones that is receiving NO, as in zero, points each turn). Now, since I'm spending points in at least one counter-intel project, maybe the game engine just sees the points being spent & doesn't check to see which CI project is receiving points...

Re: counter intelligence
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Aha! That interpretation of what's happening makes a lot of sense.

The Last time I saw an intel attack succeed despite stored defense points, the defender had no points whatsoever going into his Counterintel projects.

Re: counter intelligence
 

The question I'd really like answered is this "Is intelligence actaully usefull?" I'm aware that it can be really nasty early on if the other guy has no defense but by about turn 100 it seems projects always fail. in a PBW game i've got about twice as many intel points than the second guy and all my projects fail. even against the guy with 0 intel productions (although he may have some in storage before his intel producing planets got glassed) I've been doing most of my intel against one player who has about a 3rd of the intel points I have for the Last 10 turns, They all fail. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: counter intelligence
 

Intel can totally wreck your empire. had it happen to me in a PBW game. Was not fun.

Re: counter intelligence
 

DavidG, that's like asking if warships are useful cause they get destroyed by the other guys warships. If you don't have intel you can see how useful it is.

When trying to figure out why your intel atacks are failing, keep in mind a couple things. You said you are producing 3 times his intel? Do you really know how many intel points he has avaialable? Keep in mind if you are looking at the score screen that intel number is only the intel points he is producing. Any intel points he gets from allies in trade don't show up on that screen, but they do in the intell screen.

Secondly, do you know how many points he has stored up? You have been attacking for ten turns, but he could have been storing them for 40 turns before that.

Thirdly, you are producing 3 times as much as him, but are you using every point you are producing against him?

Finally, there is the rumored "defense multiplier". I don't know if it is correct or not, but some people claim that each point of CI accounts for 1.5 points of attack points. If this is true it affects calculations greatly. Has anyone confirmed this or not?

Geoschmo

Re: counter intelligence
 

From the Settings.txt:

"Intelligence Defense Modifier Percent := 120"

This multiplies all defensive intel points by 1.2.

From the IntelProjects.txt:

Counter Intel Project 3:

"Effect Amount := 3"

This multiplies all defensive intel points of the counter intel project 3 three times!

[ July 30, 2002, 06:37: Message edited by: Q ]

Re: counter intelligence
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I thought that meant that the single project could block up to but no more than 3 projects!

Re: counter intelligence
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This has been debated before; no-one (that I recall, at least) has come up with conclusive proof of either effect.

Re: counter intelligence
 

Aha, well mystery solved sort of. It does exsist, we just don't know exactly what it does.

You know it never ceases to amaze me how I can not know something is in those files. Especially the settings.txt file. As many times as I have been in that file...

Geoschmo

Re: counter intelligence
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This has been debated before; no-one (that I recall, at least) has come up with conclusive proof of either effect.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I tested this extensively and the effect is indeed a multiplication of the defensive intel points. But try it in a test yourself!

Re: counter intelligence
 

Hehehe.... maybe that's the whole purpose of Intel/CounterIntel. Smoke..mirrors & illusions.

Dog

[ July 31, 2002, 11:08: Message edited by: Dogberry ]

Re: counter intelligence
 

What would be excellent is someone consolidating this info (from this thread and some older ones on intel) and posting it on "Questions for Newbies."

Maybe I will take a crack at it, but I'd need help from the big guns in here.

Another thing... Is there any list of the concrete effects of the intel missions? ...Something more than the very general description that the game gives you for each offensive project.

Re: counter intelligence
 

Look in IntelProjects.txt in the Data folder.

Has anyone thouhgt of simply asking Aaron about this? I am sure he would tell you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: counter intelligence
 

If we did that then what would we have to debate about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: counter intelligence
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'll take your word for it. I've discovered that I really dislike playing test games just to doublecheck something.