Cloaking question
 

OK, I want to redo the cloaking in my mod (when will I ever finish?) to be sort of like Suicide Junkie's new cloaking model, but I'm not sure exactly how it works. According to the Online manual, ships start out with level 1 Active-EM scanning and level 0 everything else. It also says that a level X scan will beat a level X cloak. But if that's so, why do the cloaks start at level 2? Why isn't there a level 1 cloak? Is this an obi-wan error? I seem to recall something like that coming up before... I don't want ships running around thinking they're cloaked but they're not! (As if it mattered, since no one's playtested my mod yet except to make a few ship designs on High tech level!) Because I was going to add in a level 1 cloak but if it was going to be useless then I wouldn't bother... also I want to know if a top-level cloak will beat a top-level scanner or vice versa so I know at what level to stop the cloaks and scanners.

Re: Cloaking question
 

Another ambiguity in the rules.

The way it works is scanner tech level beats equivalent cloaking tech level - and a level x cloak prevents a level x scan.

So cloaking 1 and stealth armor prevent scan level 1 and they are cloaked to a non scannered ship which can only scan at level 1.

As you get tech

Scan level of a scanner is Tech Level of scanner + 1.

So For instance Tachyon Scanner at Tech Level 1 allows active scanning at level 2.

Scan level prevention of cloak is Tech Level of cloak.

Scanner 1 i.e. tachyon, hyperoptics, graviton, et. al. (all functionally the same btw) start at scanning level 2 thus defeating stealth armor and level 1 cloak which only stop scanning level 1.

So at the highest tech level cloaking 3 stops up to level 3 scans and tech level scanner 3 et.al. scan at level 4.

[ July 28, 2002, 02:19: Message edited by: augustinetorres ]

Re: Cloaking question
 

A level one cloak can be detected by ships without scanners.

In the unmodded game, a top-level scanner beats a top-level cloak.

The scanning ability can detect an equal level of cloaking ability.

ie:
Ability 1 Type := Sensor Level
Ability 1 Descr := Allows EM Active scanning at level 2.
Ability 1 Val 1 := EM Active
Ability 1 Val 2 := 2

beats

Ability 1 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 1 Descr := Prevents level 1 Active EM scans.
Ability 1 Val 1 := EM Active
Ability 1 Val 2 := 2

The reason why the cloaking device's description is one level lower than the cloak level is because it only defeats a lower level scanner (of the same type). Since ships have level 1 scanners built in, cloaking (and scanning) must begin at level 2 to be effective.

[ July 28, 2002, 02:01: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Cloaking question
 

The way I have cloaking set up for P&N 2.6, is thusly:

Ship hulls get a gravitic cloak from 1 to 5, based on size.
You could expand this so that hulls are given a gravitic cloak of 1500 - (size in kt).

Then a level 850 grav scanner would see any ship bigger than 1500-850 = 650 kt, ie: battleships or bigger.

Active scanners are blocked by various levels of Scattering armor, in a simple 1,2,3 levels.

Passive scanners are blocked by stealth armor of various levels similar to active.

Psychic cloaking is provided by Master Computers.
The 40KT MC gives the best, the 20KT MC gives the least.

Temporal cloaking is provided by tachyon- technobabble components, which also protect against Tachyon Cannons (weapon destroying damage type)

Overall, at top tech, the cloaking components can defeat the top level scanning components.
However, the grav cloaking is still limited to the tiny ships, and after they add all the other cloaking components, they are quite weak, and fairly easy to destroy via conventional weapons or mines.

The sensor components are boosted in resource cost and size. The more valuable ones are extremely oversized.
For example, the high-end gravitics can only be carried on base-sized vehicles, and cost an arm and a leg.
Psychic scanners require tons of organics and plenty of space (lifesupport & crewquarters for the psychics doing the scanning)

Re: Cloaking question
 

"level 1 Active-EM scanning and level 0 everything else. It also says that a level X scan will beat a level X cloak. But if that's so, why do the cloaks start at level 2? Why isn't there a level 1 cloak?"

Think about it a little more using just that paragraph.

Ships start with level 1 scanning. Level 1 scanning beats level 1 cloak. Therefore.. level 1 cloak = useless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

Re: Cloaking question
 

Thanks - I think I've got it now - a level X cloak beats a level X scan when you look at the abilities, but it works the other way when you look at the tech levels. I'm probably going to mod things so the abilities match the tech levels (or at least the roman numerals) - of course while this makes it less confusing for me it might make things more confusing for everybody else who is used to the way things worked before!

edit: no wait I got it backwards again! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[ July 31, 2002, 18:16: Message edited by: Ed Kolis ]

Re: Cloaking question
 

When scan and cloak levels are equal, scan wins. You are visible. It used to be that the cloaking device ability descriptions said that the same level of scanning and cloaking would make you invisible. The old descriptions for the cloaking devices were wrong, but I think they've created an assumption that is now 'embedded' in everyone's minds... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Cloaking question
 

Hmm, I've run into another snag... What is the point of a level 1 cloak in anything but EM-Active? According to what I read in the manual it seems such a cloak would have no effect unless there were a level 1 scanner in EM-Active - ships start with level 1 scan in EM-Active and level 0 in everything else, right? Or do they start with level 1 in everything? If that were true, then you'd need a level 1 cloak in everything in order to be invisible from even the lowliest satellite! But there's no level 1 EM-Passive scanner, or level 1 Psychic scanner... all the scanners start at level 2. So what IS the point of a level 1 cloak in something other than EM-Active? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Cloaking question
 

There isn't really one. Don't worry too much about it and just start at 2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Cloaking question
 

In order to avoid confusion, why don't we set all scanners to odd levels, and cloaks to even levels?

Scanners would have ability amounts of 3,5,7,9,11
and cloaks would have amounts of 2,4,6,8,10.

It is now painfully obvious which one wins in any particular matchup.

Re: Cloaking question
 

Ooooh My head.

><
~~

I read the entire thread... if only I'd started with SJ's Last posting.

Re: Cloaking question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok.
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your ship has no scanners. EM-active detection 1, 0 to all other types.</font>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I put an EM-active cloak on my ship, which grants EM-2 cloak.</font>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now your ship can't see mine.</font>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You put a temporal scanner level 1 on your ship.</font>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now you can see mine again, even though I have a cloaking device. I need temporal cloaking 2 to be able to hide again.
  </font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is the usefullness of level 1 scanners. (Except for EM-active lev 1, of coarse. They come standard on all ship hulls. Is that moddable?)
Now tell me, did I completely mis-understand your question?

Re: Cloaking question
 

Good, that's what I've picked up from this thread. So now I have Em-Active scanners going from level 2 to level 5 (so they can detect ships in nebulas with cloak level 5, and mines with level 5 stealth), and all the other scanners go from level 1 to 4. And the various cloaks go from level 2 to 4. That should work...

Re: Cloaking question
 

In that case, your highest scanner will beat your highest cloak.

Just out of curiosity, why don't you have any level 1 cloaks (for the other cloak/scan types)?

Re: Cloaking question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep, isn't that the way it works in the unmodded game?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, wouldn't they be useless? A level 1 scanner could see through them...

Re: Cloaking question
 

"Well, wouldn't they be useless? A level 1 scanner could see through them..."

But since a ship (probably) doesn't have all level 1 scanning by default, you still need to install the scanner.

Phoenix-D

Re: Cloaking question
 

Well, what exactly would a level 1 cloak block? A level 0 scan? I don't think that level 0 scans count for seeing things with... or DO they?

Re: Cloaking question
 

It would block a ship WITHOUT scanners from seeing the ship- assuming they don't start with scanners in everything, of course.

Phoenix-D

Re: Cloaking question
 

Let's see if we can simplify this:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> Actv Pass Grav Temp Psyc
Scanner 1 0 0 0 0
Cloak 2 0 0 0 0
--Cloak wins

Actv Pass Grav Temp Psyc
Scanner 1 1 0 0 0
Cloak 2 0 0 0 0
--Scanner wins

Actv Pass Grav Temp Psyc
Scanner 1 0 0 0 0
Cloak 0 1 0 0 0
--Scanner wins

Actv Pass Grav Temp Psyc
Scanner 1 0 0 0 0
Cloak 2 1 0 0 0
--Cloak wins (EM), redundant cloaking</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Level 1 cloaks won't provide any benefit, since lvl 0 doesn't detect anything--lvl 1 is the lowest effective level. Thus, the lowest practical cloak level is lvl 2, since level 1 is redundant.

Re: Cloaking question
 

Why is Level 1 redundant??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif If a ship starts with 0 in everything but Active EM, then level 1 will hide you, IF you also have a higher cloak in Active EM. If my Active EM cloak beats your scanner, it may be quicker for you to research, say, level 1 Passive EM sensors than it would to research level 2 Active EM sensors. Either way would let you see my Active EM cloaked ships, but If you're pressed for time, the quickest sensor that would defeat my cloak is best.

And splitting cloaking/scanning techs up like this would have the fringe benefit of making Scanners more useful. (How else are you going to be able to remain undetected and yet know for sure that you ARE undetected...

[ August 03, 2002, 08:54: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

Re: Cloaking question
 

To make combinations of cloaks more likely, I would suggest 2 things: Extend sensor/cloak to level 10 (or even 15!), and make the levels expensive. That way, there is a major difference in research cost between mid-high level cloaks of one type and low level in another.

Re: Cloaking question
 

I think we're misunderstanding each other. Level 1 cloaking would be redundant, since it would only beat level 0 scanning--which doesn't scan at all. OTH, level 1 scanning is definitely useful, since it can detect ships with level 1 or no cloaking.

Re: Cloaking question
 

Level 0 scanning is present in the game. All ships start out with level 0 scanning in all types except EM-Active. So there are benefits of level 1 scanners (accept in EM-Active, which by default starts at lev 1). Now if you skip from, say, temporal scanning 0 to temporal 2 (as you suggest), what's the point of having temporal level 1 cloaking? You would have to research 2 steps of temporal cloaking (0-1, then 1-2) to beat the one research step of temporal scanning (0-2). THAT doesn't make sense....

Granted, in the early sensor/cloak rush, anything besides EM-Active would be a waste. But once you got up to EM-Active 4 or so, it would be cheaper and quicker to research a different type of cloaking instead of the next step of EM-Active. And unless your opponent can successfully guess which type you switched to, you have a window of opportunity whilst your opponent waits for the research to complete on the next, now rather expensive, level of EM-Active.

Re: Cloaking question
 

No no no!!!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif Level 1 scanners are useful!!!!! Level 0 scanning doesn't detect anything. If it did, then you'd have to research Level 1 cloaking in every area before you could hide your ship from anyone. I'm saying Level 1 cloaks are useless!!!!! Cloaking should start at level 2; scanners should start at level 1.

Start of game--All ships visible (EM Active scanning 1, all other scanning 0).

Research EM Active cloak 2. Ships invisible because cloak beats scanner. Even though there are no other cloaks, scanner lvl 0 does not detect anything. Proof--Stealth Armor only cloaks EM Active and EM Passive--not any of the other cloak types.

Research EM Active scanner level 2--Ships visible because scanner beats cloak.

-OR-

Research any other scanner level 1--Ships visible because scanning level 1 beats cloak level 0.

Am I being unclear? Level 1 scanners=good idea. Level 1 cloaks=bad idea. Cloaks should skip from level 0 to level 2.